Is it Time for Below 50 Dungeon Queues?

RottingAlien

Super high damage DDs Abuse the queue system to skip queue and get faster rewards, completely ignoring the needs of the rest of the group.
I've seen new players disconnect after being denied their quest even tho they said they wanted to make the quest.
New players need space to learn and grow. And that happens a lot in dungeons with group members of similar levels. Unfortunately, normal queues rarely have a proper group now and its all about speed, forced by the ones that don't even need a normal queue.
The current state of the normal dungeon queues is extremely unhealthy for new people joining ESO.

RottingAlien

Yes

I vote yes, ofc.

Belegnole

No

So you would force low level players not to have mentors in dungeons?

zvavi

No

As if you need to be max level to blast through a dungeon, low level, 300 CP, crafted gear, full speed.

We don't need the BG treatment, split queues but can't chose mode/dungeon.

RottingAlien

Yes

Belegnole wrote: »

So you would force low level players not to have mentors in dungeons?

Good Question.
Not what i was thinking. could be something like below 50s could still queue above 50. but higher could not queue below 50.
the purpose would be having a space where you don't have newbies still accepting their quest while the fake tank and fake healer are already finishing the dungeon.

idk

No

Making a change that would lengthen the time to get a queue to pop is not good for the game.

Forming ones own group when wanting a specific type of group is a much better solution. Especially since there are lower lvl players that will skip ahead because they know they can.

Araneae6537

No

Most groups are considerate enough to let you grab the quest. There are many very helpful players too that I have met via group finder. Rude players can hurt a group whatever their level and the solution is to kick or leave if saying something does not change their behavior.

I think having a lower level queue would actually hurt newer players as queuing for under-50 would likely give longer queue times and potentially more frustrating dungeon experiences as those with experience would probably never use the queue.

phileunderx2

No

ZOS made a mistake in having the random dungeon award the 10 transmute crystals.
your first dungeon competition of the day should give you the reward.

nukk3r

No

Imagine being a vet player, creating a new toon and being stuck in a sub-50 dungeon with people who installed the game yesterday.

SeaGtGruff

Yes

It would not stop below-50 players from joining normal queues if they want to run dungeons with 50-and-above players, so the arguments that it would keep them from learning from veteran players are not correct.

It would just give them another option, which would not be such a bad thing in my opinion.

As far as the possibility that a below-50 player could still run ahead of the group, maybe if the below-50 queue didn't give the reward of 10 transmute crystals it would remove the incentive to speed-run the dungeon at the expense of the rest of the group?

Nairinhe

No

RottingAlien wrote: »

New players need space to learn and grow.

It's called "a guild"

Xebov

No

Your suggestion would not solve the issues you point out:

• Low level players also queue as fake roles when noticing that it works and they get into dungeons faster.
• Low level players will also move faster through dungeons tehy did a couple of times.
• You get high level players with low level characters that also do the above.

So there is no change, but you get some additional down sides:

• The queue is smaller which creates increased waittimes.
• Dungeons unlocking at higher levels are less likely to come up because the player group that could run them is smaller.

The current situation might not be ideal, but new players have to learn that every player is in the dungeon for his own reasons.

Ezhh

No

Though I agree from my experiences that the current state of random groups is generally unhealthy, this has far more to do with how players on either side of the fast/slow and high/low dps sides tend to communicate, and how many choose not to communicate or pay any attention at all, than it does with level.

Also there's plenty of people over 50 who might fall into the category of wanting or needing slower paced dungeons. I still sometimes make new characters, and won't have all the dungeon quests done by 50. Then suddenly I'm 810+ on my new character with barely half the skill points I need, but with this system I wouldn't qualify for the queue where I can expect time to finish my quest? What about a 1k+ CP person who played for years just doing quests and never did a dungeon before? What about a 600CP DD main who is a pretty good DD but is trying tank for the first time? Shouldn't they get a chance to go slow and learn?

As a guess: Most genuinely new players would use an under 50s option if it was there because they wouldn't understand the reasons for the separation and could think they are not good enough to group with higher level people yet.This wouldn't remove the real problem (as I've pointed out, many would still struggle in the regular queue - this is not only an issue for under 50s). All it would do is isolate a number of new players from the larger part of the player base, possibly drive them away from dungeons due to the probably even longer queue times they'd face, and at best delay one of the issues they might face until they hit 50, all while making it less likely they'll encounter people who genuinely will try and help them early on.

redspecter23

No

Your problem isn't with above 50 players. It's with zergers and inconsiderate players. You're taking an issue, drawing incorrect conclusions and proposing a change based on those conclusions. That's never a good idea.

What you should do is propose a solution to the actual problem but lucky you, it already exists. If you want to remove inconsiderate players from your dungeon experience, don't use the queue. Form a premade group from friends and guildies. If you must use the queue, use it for the 4th member so your 3 member group always has voting power.

The queue does one thing (when it works). It puts 4 players together and ports them into an instance. Trying to apply more filters than that is usually subjective and would just serve to split the queue even further.

Everest_Lionheart

No

Rolling out a new toon and going into your first dungeon at level 10 with 810CP already behind it makes you about 2000% stronger than an actual level 10 player in that same dungeon that just started the game. Your level 10 with CP applied will solo FG1 by spamming one skill theirs will likely die at the first add pull. That has zero to do with experience and everything to do with power creep.

To top it off if the experienced player is anything like me they have crafted training gear enchanted to further enhance their power. That true lv10 is probably wearing whatever they have picked up to this point. I’m likely running a scroll (or two for the event plus ESO+) and picking up a ton more experience. I enter FG1 at level 10 and leave at 14, true level 10 leaves at 12.

For those base dungeons me going in on a fresh toon or on one of my already completed CP toons makes little difference. In some cases the non CP toons actually hit way harder (looking at you stamblade and your 110K+ executes at lv10 that are only ~104k at max CP.)

Honestly the harder part of the game comes from CP10 (you get 10 at lv50) until you hit the gear cap. At lv50 the first time your power and survivability fall off the map which is fine for questing but running dungeons you are basically rubbish. CP purgatory is the worst part about this game, but it’s also the part where people are really getting carried through the game. Splitting the queue for over and under 50 does nothing to fix this.

RottingAlien

Yes

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

New players need space to learn and grow.

It's called "a guild"

did you have a guild at, lets say, lvl 20? I didn't.

aurorable

No

They could always add a story mode version of dungeons, it would be a one time solo instance with nerfed adds/bosses and no pin mechs/one shots/etc. Allowing players to do the quest at their own pace and get their skill point. This version would NOT count towards achievement/pledges/etc. While this version wouldn't help with people fake queuing, it would help those who need the points (or want to enjoy the story). Sadly no matter what you do, there will always be random rushers no matter the level unless you get a group of friends or guildies together...

(I've seen many different levels try to run off and solo only to die which always gives me a good laugh).

Nairinhe

No

RottingAlien wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

New players need space to learn and grow.

It's called "a guild"

did you have a guild at, lets say, lvl 20? I didn't.

I didn't because I didn't need one. I didn't run dungeons at level 20 on my main, I've been doing quests. I did level my healers on daily randoms, though, and they were mostly nice.
But there's a lot of guilds that don't care what level you are, so I'm not sure what's your point.

RottingAlien

Yes

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

New players need space to learn and grow.

It's called "a guild"

did you have a guild at, lets say, lvl 20? I didn't.

I didn't because I didn't need one. I didn't run dungeons at level 20 on my main, I've been doing quests. I did level my healers on daily randoms, though, and they were mostly nice.
But there's a lot of guilds that don't care what level you are, so I'm not sure what's your point.

I asked because most of lvl 20 players don't even know how to join one or don't even know if they are going to play the game enough to join one.
Some enter a dungeon, see how players behave, lose their quest, quit.
Thats the problem and the point of the poll.

Nairinhe

No

RottingAlien wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

New players need space to learn and grow.

It's called "a guild"

did you have a guild at, lets say, lvl 20? I didn't.

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

New players need space to learn and grow.

It's called "a guild"

did you have a guild at, lets say, lvl 20? I didn't.

I didn't because I didn't need one. I didn't run dungeons at level 20 on my main, I've been doing quests. I did level my healers on daily randoms, though, and they were mostly nice.
But there's a lot of guilds that don't care what level you are, so I'm not sure what's your point.

I asked because most of lvl 20 players don't even know how to join one or don't even know if they are going to play the game enough to join one.
Some enter a dungeon, see how players behave, lose their quest, quit.
Thats the problem and the point of the poll.

If they can find group finder, they can find guild menu. If they aren't happy with random groups they sure can ask or search about what their options are. Or they are still too clueless for dungeons anyway.

RottingAlien

Yes

[snip] quote formatting is all f'd up xD

yup, and they lose interest and leave and never get to see what eso has to offer.
Thats not how you make a good impression on new players. you might not care, but its good for the game to make new players feel welcomed.

Nairinhe

No

RottingAlien wrote: »

[snip] quote formatting is all f'd up xD

yup, and they lose interest and leave and never get to see what eso has to offer.
Thats not how you make a good impression on new players. you might not care, but its good for the game to make new players feel welcomed.

Ok, then, what makes you think that sub-50 queue full with full CP rushing sub-50 toons would make a good impression?

gamergirldk

No

how hard is it to start out by typing.. I need to do quests?

people hardly say hi anymore and expect other to know they need quest?

bmnoble

Other

You would have to make both queue's share healers and tanks otherwise there would be a severe shortage of support roles in the low level queue, since not everybody levels the support roles through dungeons.

Which would also end up defeating the purpose since those who fake roles will still end up in that queue and if there is an option to pick which one you want the fakers will go with the low level queue in the hopes of avoiding DLC dungeons and getting an easier dungeon run.

There is no easy fix, your only real options are to type your doing the quest and hope you get a nice enough group or form your own group.

RottingAlien

Yes

gamergirldk wrote: »

how hard is it to start out by typing.. I need to do quests?

people hardly say hi anymore and expect other to know they need quest?

well, hu.. its litteraly in the description

RottingAlien wrote: »

I've seen new players disconnect after being denied their quest even tho they said they wanted to make the quest.

Xebov wrote: »

Your suggestion would not solve the issues you point out:

• Low level players also queue as fake roles when noticing that it works and they get into dungeons faster.
• Low level players will also move faster through dungeons tehy did a couple of times.
• You get high level players with low level characters that also do the above.

So there is no change, but you get some additional down sides:

• The queue is smaller which creates increased waittimes.
• Dungeons unlocking at higher levels are less likely to come up because the player group that could run them is smaller.

The current situation might not be ideal, but new players have to learn that every player is in the dungeon for his own reasons.

wrong. high cp low level char can't run through dungeons before someone even get the quest. its just not possible. its way different a low level dd queueing up as tank than a high level dd because you know he willl just rip through the dungeons. thats the whole point.
so there is actually a change.

redspecter23 wrote: »

Your problem isn't with above 50 players. It's with zergers and inconsiderate players. You're taking an issue, drawing incorrect conclusions and proposing a change based on those conclusions. That's never a good idea.

What you should do is propose a solution to the actual problem but lucky you, it already exists. If you want to remove inconsiderate players from your dungeon experience, don't use the queue. Form a premade group from friends and guildies. If you must use the queue, use it for the 4th member so your 3 member group always has voting power.

The queue does one thing (when it works). It puts 4 players together and ports them into an instance. Trying to apply more filters than that is usually subjective and would just serve to split the queue even further.

No. The solution should be actually making sure people queue with the correct roles. That would definitely help. but good luck having ZoS doing that. Tbh I think they would first make seperate queues than actually solve the core issue.

Also.. its not up to the newbies or the players who are using the queue as intended to stop using it. The players abusing the queue system are the ones who sould be recruiting guilds and friends.

Nairinhe wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

[snip] quote formatting is all f'd up xD

yup, and they lose interest and leave and never get to see what eso has to offer.
Thats not how you make a good impression on new players. you might not care, but its good for the game to make new players feel welcomed.

Ok, then, what makes you think that sub-50 queue full with full CP rushing sub-50 toons would make a good impression?

the rush would definitely be slower 100%.
Low level gear, mostly training gear + not every skill unlocked.
I'm on my 18th char now. Don't tell me that you have the same dps with a level 40 char and an actuall 810cp+ because i'm not buying it xD

Recapitated

No

ZOS needs to think harder about how to encourage experienced players to be good neighbours. FFXIV has a kudos system: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Player_Commendation

Gate mounts and transmutes behind that and you'd see a lot more mentoring.

RottingAlien

Yes

Recapitated wrote: »

ZOS needs to think harder about how to encourage experienced players to be good neighbours. FFXIV has a kudos system: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Player_Commendation

Gate mounts and transmutes behind that and you'd see a lot more mentoring.

Oh BTW. a friend of mine that didn't enjoy the low level dungeons because of all the elitism thats going in noob content is actually now playing FFXIV. so.. hu.. yeah, theres that

That system would actually be awesome.
Way better solution than "Newbs need to find themselves a group and not use queue" logic

redspecter23

No

RottingAlien wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

ZOS needs to think harder about how to encourage experienced players to be good neighbours. FFXIV has a kudos system: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Player_Commendation

Gate mounts and transmutes behind that and you'd see a lot more mentoring.

Oh BTW. a friend of mine that didn't enjoy the low level dungeons because of all the elitism thats going in noob content is actually now playing FFXIV. so.. hu.. yeah, theres that

That system would actually be awesome.
Way better solution than "Newbs need to find themselves a group and not use queue" logic

If your friend found a good guild, they might still be playing ESO. You seem to have this idea that with enough rules and restrictions you can change human nature to suit your idea of queue perfection. Even if you did accomplish that, it would be perfect for you. You should have enough evidence already in this thread that your idea of what's right is not similar to what many other people want. Suggesting that because it's a change you want and everyone else should also want that is naive. People play the game differently. It would be impossible to design a queue system that allows for that sort of flexibility, however, when you form your own group, you remove the need for the system to design something you want. You have full control. Why expect a game system to be able to do that for you?

RottingAlien

Yes

redspecter23 wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

ZOS needs to think harder about how to encourage experienced players to be good neighbours. FFXIV has a kudos system: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Player_Commendation

Gate mounts and transmutes behind that and you'd see a lot more mentoring.

Oh BTW. a friend of mine that didn't enjoy the low level dungeons because of all the elitism thats going in noob content is actually now playing FFXIV. so.. hu.. yeah, theres that

That system would actually be awesome.
Way better solution than "Newbs need to find themselves a group and not use queue" logic

If your friend found a good guild, they might still be playing ESO. You seem to have this idea that with enough rules and restrictions you can change human nature to suit your idea of queue perfection. Even if you did accomplish that, it would be perfect for you. You should have enough evidence already in this thread that your idea of what's right is not similar to what many other people want. Suggesting that because it's a change you want and everyone else should also want that is naive. People play the game differently. It would be impossible to design a queue system that allows for that sort of flexibility, however, when you form your own group, you remove the need for the system to design something you want. You have full control. Why expect a game system to be able to do that for you?

Tbh the poll shows that people clearly don't want below 50 queues. But that doesn't mean they are happy with the faking that's going on. Its a flawed poll and should have another option maybe.

The only thing i would expect is using the queue the way devs intended it to be used.
The queue clearly lets you know that you can't have 2 healers, or 2 tanks, or more than 2 DDs. everyone bypassing that is not doing it as it was intended.

redspecter23

No

RottingAlien wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

ZOS needs to think harder about how to encourage experienced players to be good neighbours. FFXIV has a kudos system: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Player_Commendation

Gate mounts and transmutes behind that and you'd see a lot more mentoring.

Oh BTW. a friend of mine that didn't enjoy the low level dungeons because of all the elitism thats going in noob content is actually now playing FFXIV. so.. hu.. yeah, theres that

That system would actually be awesome.
Way better solution than "Newbs need to find themselves a group and not use queue" logic

If your friend found a good guild, they might still be playing ESO. You seem to have this idea that with enough rules and restrictions you can change human nature to suit your idea of queue perfection. Even if you did accomplish that, it would be perfect for you. You should have enough evidence already in this thread that your idea of what's right is not similar to what many other people want. Suggesting that because it's a change you want and everyone else should also want that is naive. People play the game differently. It would be impossible to design a queue system that allows for that sort of flexibility, however, when you form your own group, you remove the need for the system to design something you want. You have full control. Why expect a game system to be able to do that for you?

Tbh the poll shows that people clearly don't want below 50 queues. But that doesn't mean they are happy with the faking that's going on. Its a flawed poll and should have another option maybe.

The only thing i would expect is using the queue the way devs intended it to be used.
The queue clearly lets you know that you can't have 2 healers, or 2 tanks, or more than 2 DDs. everyone bypassing that is not doing it as it was intended.

If people used vote kick to deal with fake roles, then eventually, people would stop queueing as a fake role. I do my part and kick fake tanks even if I know we can win with them faking.

RottingAlien

Yes

redspecter23 wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

RottingAlien wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

ZOS needs to think harder about how to encourage experienced players to be good neighbours. FFXIV has a kudos system: https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Player_Commendation

Gate mounts and transmutes behind that and you'd see a lot more mentoring.

Oh BTW. a friend of mine that didn't enjoy the low level dungeons because of all the elitism thats going in noob content is actually now playing FFXIV. so.. hu.. yeah, theres that

That system would actually be awesome.
Way better solution than "Newbs need to find themselves a group and not use queue" logic

If your friend found a good guild, they might still be playing ESO. You seem to have this idea that with enough rules and restrictions you can change human nature to suit your idea of queue perfection. Even if you did accomplish that, it would be perfect for you. You should have enough evidence already in this thread that your idea of what's right is not similar to what many other people want. Suggesting that because it's a change you want and everyone else should also want that is naive. People play the game differently. It would be impossible to design a queue system that allows for that sort of flexibility, however, when you form your own group, you remove the need for the system to design something you want. You have full control. Why expect a game system to be able to do that for you?

Tbh the poll shows that people clearly don't want below 50 queues. But that doesn't mean they are happy with the faking that's going on. Its a flawed poll and should have another option maybe.

The only thing i would expect is using the queue the way devs intended it to be used.
The queue clearly lets you know that you can't have 2 healers, or 2 tanks, or more than 2 DDs. everyone bypassing that is not doing it as it was intended.

If people used vote kick to deal with fake roles, then eventually, people would stop queueing as a fake role. I do my part and kick fake tanks even if I know we can win with them faking.

True.
But oh man do I have the thread for you.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/556850/fake-queuers-problem-yesterday-was-a-good-day/p1