Stamdk and stamcro

Rainfallz

Hi! I have a stamcro and stamdk. Everyone, and every eso resource ranks stamcro as top tier, and stamdk somewhere mid/bottom. I've played some bgs on both of them and necro is pretty good, but not something special. It's really good defence wise: mender? coil, good passives. But offence wise its like my BB crits someone for half hp and its ez frag, or im just tunneling someone for 5 minutes straight and best case scenario only getteing them to 50%. I'm using dottz's stamcro build (except I've gone for 5 heavy, and using trollking since laking some undaunted keys) https://dottzgaming.com/build/plague-stamina-necromancer-pvp-build/

While dk feels balanced in offence/defence. I have 2 good dots, fracture,, 3rd dot on executioner, great ulti, mending. Not sure if im actually having more success on a dk, but it feels much more comfortable. Build itself - https://dottzgaming.com/category/build/dragon-knight-pvp/

Back to the question: why is stamcro rated so high and dk is not? Either im not used to heavy armor or doing something wrong on necro. Explanation would be appreciated.

wheem_ESO

Might be due to outdated information. The Major Defile applied by Blighted Blastbones reduced healing by 30% prior to the Markarth patch, and the disease damage from the ability itself had a chance to apply Minor Defile as well, for another 15% reduced healing. The nerfs to those debuffs was a pretty decent hit by Stamina Necromancers, though their Blastbones morph still frequently applies the "NPC snare" that goes through various forms of immunity.

The bottom line is that basically all stamina classes - Necromancer and DK included - are quite good. The exact hierarchy among stamina setups might change somewhat from patch to patch (except for Stamina Warden, which has basically been top dog since it was introduced), but I wouldn't call any of them "bad" by any means.

fred4

I agree. Outdated information. Stam DK has been good for a while and, depending on who you listen to, is close to top tier. Stamcro was so highly rated specifically because of the defile which, as wheem noted, has been nerfed. Stamden seems to be highly-rated due to people running Arctic Blast. High-health builds are in. Possibly a consequence of nerfs to resistances and buffs to penetration, high health is the next best thing and that seems to play into the hands of classes that have health-based heals.

DK is a more opportunistic and IMO more fun to play class than warden. Warden burst is predictable, whereas a DK can cast their eye around and leap anyone in range who looks ripe for excecution. I have not bought nor played necro, but I think of them as basically the same class as warden. Maybe that's wrong, but same ideas behind them: Slow, tanky, 3s stacked burst skill.

HalvarIronfist

Rainfallz wrote: »

Hi! I have a stamcro and stamdk. Everyone, and every eso resource ranks stamcro as top tier, and stamdk somewhere mid/bottom. I've played some bgs on both of them and necro is pretty good, but not something special. It's really good defence wise: mender? coil, good passives. But offence wise its like my BB crits someone for half hp and its ez frag, or im just tunneling someone for 5 minutes straight and best case scenario only getteing them to 50%. I'm using dottz's stamcro build (except I've gone for 5 heavy, and using trollking since laking some undaunted keys) https://dottzgaming.com/build/plague-stamina-necromancer-pvp-build/

While dk feels balanced in offence/defence. I have 2 good dots, fracture,, 3rd dot on executioner, great ulti, mending. Not sure if im actually having more success on a dk, but it feels much more comfortable. Build itself - https://dottzgaming.com/category/build/dragon-knight-pvp/

Back to the question: why is stamcro rated so high and dk is not? Either im not used to heavy armor or doing something wrong on necro. Explanation would be appreciated.

Stamdk main here, Will do a quick pros/cons of each class

Stamdk Pros:

1. Best dots in the game, stamina wise.
2. Leap is amazing
3. Good ultgen/recovery from passives, letting you run less stam recovery without being punished.
4. You can stay fairly innately tanky.

Stamdk Cons:

1. Extremely lacks mobility
2. You don't have burst outside of leap. Good players can dodge dizzy, and poopfist will eat your stamina alive
3. Your dots will PROBABLY be purged against the other two classes, and you don't get a purge for yourself.
4. Your class heals frankly suck. The only semblance of a good heal is cauterize, if it doesn't go to someone else in your group/BG team (you don't have any control over this.)
5. Wings was nerfed too hard to be worth using anymore.

Stamden Pros:

1. Even without Fracture, I've found the burst to be the same anyway. You can set up an easy burst-kill combo with sub assault and dawnbreaker in BGs. (Seriously, build a glass-cannony stamden, you can two shot people in high mmr bgs.)
2. Amazing class healing, via a very cheap ult and fair to good class heals which ALSO give MINOR TOUGHNESS. (10% extra hp.)
3. Tanky enough thanks to Ice Fortress giving Minor Protection right in the kit.
4. CC on a class self heal, major heroism from a skill that can basically negate projectiles.
5. Purge on class skill that costs NOTHING to upkeep and RESTORES STAMINA PASSIVELY (Although not crazily.)
6. Highly mobile.

Stamden Cons:

1. No Major/Minor Breach
2. You only have ONE Dot and if you don't slot it, your ENTIRE offense is dependent on burst damage.
3. Really nothing else I can think of at the second PVP wise, as they're literally the meta thing right now.

Stamcro Pros:

1. Incredibly tanky due to minor/major protection from class skills, alongside a free 10% mitigation from spirit guardian. Don't forget the purge, either.
2. Fairly bursty, assuming you can line up a blastbones which can be buggy sometimes.
3. Free 15% dot mitigation and extra dot damage (Make a cheese proc build right now and if you're good about upkeeping buffs/kiting, you can basically be invincible.)
4. Probably the best PVP tank class, especially if you want to use the Harbinger set to kill potato players by holding block.

Stamcro Cons:

1. Ult Cost is kind of high for everything, which is fair given the impact of the ults.
2. Colossus - Okay, don't take this wrong. The ult in itself is fine. But it's also hugely avoidable and easy to waste.
3. Lots of utility skills that clog your bars, the tankiness is a curse as much as a blessing.
4. You have NO dots to use as a stamcro, which can screw over your passive for dot damage unless you use proc sets. (I believe this still buffs them?)

This is from my perspective as a stamdk main that plays both CP and NON CP (Preferably BGs)
I do also have leveled stamden/cro characters which provided my thoughts for this post.)

Ariades_swe

Stamdk is a beast and extremely good at punishishing bad players.

JayKwellen

I play a stamDK, I've never played a stamcro myself but from the outside looking in here's my "outsiders" opinion on why stamcro is good and in some ways better than the DK.

Tankiness: Stamcros have access to both major protection and "not major protection, but actually major protection" from their mender - as these are flat damage reductions they can't be reduced by penetration. Necros also usually get 2-4% healing received from bone tyrant skills, take 15% less DoT damage, and get what essentially amounts to free minor mending with 8% healing done with a negative effect on you (which is PvP is basically always). It all boils down to a whole lotta mitigation and healing power naturally built into the class.

Damage: Blastbones, even after the major defile nerf, is still a very powerful skill. Does a lot of damage, it's AoE, it defiles, it snares, and it's cheap. The biggest thing it does though is it allows you to stack delayed damage combos. A well timed blastbones with a dizzy + heavy + dawnbreaker is going to smush most people. It's hard to underemphasize how useful burst can be in PvP. While high consistent pressure builds are much more viable now than they had been in the past, burst is still important. The old attrition style of slowly grinding someone down into paste doesn't work when people can heal back to full in 1 GCD - sometimes you just gotta give them a good punch in the throat to finish them off, which is exactly what blastbones + dizzy + dawnbreaker gives you. Or Animate Blastbones instead of dawnbreaker, if you want to literally delete people and leave them wondering what just happened. Or if you're outnumbered, you always have the colossus.

So why are stamcros good? Because they've got good mitigation and good healing from their passives and active abilities, plus good offensive combos available to them. They're a pretty good well rounded package as far as classes go.

As a DK I don't have delayed burst, and other than a couple thousand spell resistance and a 10% blocking bonus I don't as much built in automatic mitigation either. The only "free" passive things I get to beef up my tankiness is 5% more health recovery and 12% more healing received. Other than major resolve, the only class buffs I have that effect my tankiness at all are major mending and minor brutality. I suppose I could also get major fortitude + endurance and minor vitality, but the first two are always up from potions anyway, and 4500 mag is a lot to spend for that vitality.

Personally, the issue I have with my stamDK is that I feel like the lack of big AoE burst combo potential makes the class trickier to play and pull off successfully in larger/outnumbered fights in comparison to stamden or stamcro. I had a stamden (which plays similarly with the delayed combos), and dragging people into a choke to turn and hit them with a shalk + dawnbreaker + execute combo was much easier by comparison. It's enough damage all at once to flatten squishier players, pick off another weak one, and then keep going. DK's are missing that delayed burst, so like @fred4 said you have to be more opportunistic, finding the weak ones where you can and finishing them quick, because a leap on its own won't usually get the job done. Plus after the nerf to major mending and the proliferation of procs (which DK's cant purge, unlike necros/wardens) I've found it a lot harder to just sit and brawl like I used to be able to, so it's less feasible to just stand in traffic and beat someone to death. Due to this and given the current free damage meta I've started to drastically change how my DK plays - no longer the slow lumbering thumper but instead emphasizing speed, evasiveness, and opportunistic finishers - although that's a story for another time.

Like I said though, this is coming from the standpoint of a stamDK analyzing what stamcros do so there's totally a non-zero percent possibly I could be off base with my assumptions.

relentless_turnip

I have played all 3 quite a significant amount.

Stamdk is the most fun IMO, with leap being the most satisfying ult in the game.
Stamcros are very powerful, but very clunky to play and incredibly buff intensive. This coupled with it clunkiness offensively and defensively I don't enjoy it that much.
Stamdens are great in every department their kit is varied enough that you can take them in many build directions.
In this meta though its best to wear 2-4 proc sets(crimson is very popular) stack health and just spam arctic winds.
You will never die and kill everyone trying to kill you. If for any reason people are still alive hit northern torm and continue to spam arctic. This would work well on any of the above, but works best on stamden because of their ease in stacking health(minor toughness) and a heal that scales with your max health, damages(procs) and stuns.

I mainly play Stamsorc at the moment I find it the most fun.

fred4

JayKwellen wrote: »

Due to this and given the current free damage meta I've started to drastically change how my DK plays - no longer the slow lumbering thumper but instead emphasizing speed, evasiveness, and opportunistic finishers - although that's a story for another time.

This is actually how I play any class, which may be why I favor DK and recent changes don't bother me much. Almost always Wild Hunt, medium armor, Prisoner's back bar in the past (now Powerful Assault).

I agree with almost all that others have said, but don't know where the high mobility of warden that someone mentioned is coming from. Bird of Prey? There are so many better options, such as Race Against Time (snare removal), Streak, Shadow Image, even just dodge rolling with a bow. Stamsorc is the true mobility class and I would lump DK and warden together as "slow". The main ways you speed up classes are IMO Wild Hunt, medium armor, possibly bow, and gap closers - of which Leap is one. Bird of Prey doesn't really cut it for me. The lack of snare removal and nerf to Minor Berserk make it so lacklustre.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

Stamcros are ... incredibly buff intensive.

This is how I feel about madgen and the reason why I didn't buy the necro class. The two new classes feel designed by rote. Distribute some major and minor buffs / debuffs across skills, give them a PvP burst skill and that's it. Flavorless. On the face of it warden has some fun skills, such as Nature's Embrace and the teleportation rune. The problem, as a solo / small-scale player is, those skills are too niche and, therefore, they don't define the class in the way that Leap, Streak and Cloak define their classes. Maybe I never gave stamden enough of a chance, though.

There is a distinction between what I call "busywork" and a well-designed class. The former includes flat out buff skills and HOTs you just need to maintain as well as what you call "clunky" mechanics. I assume that refers to the reliance on corpses, tethers, and such? Any class that requires you to adhere to particular rotations, like a PvEer, falls into the "busywork" category for me. Especially when those rotations are defensive or targetless. I have not attempted mag DK for a long time, but it's many delayed healing mechanics have always felt artificially clunky to me too. What a joy to play a straightforward class instead, such as magplar. Pairing magplar with high stam sustain (and I mean really high - I run Eternal Vigor + Amber Plasm + Relentless Focus + Sugar Skulls) feels almost as fast and visceral as stamsorc. It doesn't have the same escape tool that Bolt Escape is, but somehow Race Against Time plus Wild Hunt plus a gap closer that is good enough to slot without question turn magplar into a more visceral and responsive class than my stam DK, except for the killer move of the DK that is Leap.

relentless_turnip wrote: »

I mainly play Stamsorc at the moment I find it the most fun.

Yep!

Rainfallz

Yeah i guess i still can't get used to that "short" window at stamcro when all buffs are set adn you can do whatever you want, and then going all over again.

Maybe anyone could point me some working dk builds? I really enjoin dottz's with sheer venom and pale order, but maybe it's better to switch for more meta one.

fred4

I don't play meta builds, but I'll share what I run on my stam DK. Note I'm playing in CP.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=298764

Yes, I like "poop stomp". Most people prefer Dizzying. I wanted to be different. It's AOE, it's ranged, it's a CC, it gives Minor Brutality. That last point is a key feature that steered me towards this build, because it means I do without Fragmented Shield. This, in turn, opens up a skill slot to where I have room for 3 heals - heals that complement each other in duration and proc intervals - as well as Shuffle for the snare removal and AOE damage mitigation. In addition the magicka requirements of this build are extremely low. If you use Fragmented Shield, you probably end up using tri-pots. This build uses Physical Resistance / Health / Stamina pots instead. DK has a spell resistance passive, but not physical, so this fills in a gap in it's defense.

The two DOTs go without saying and DK DOTs actually work. Not much to add. Leap and Executioner form a combo. Not much to add there either. Leap is your standard 90% of the time ulti, Corrosive Armor restores more resources than Spell Wall and can surprise people as they are not expecting you to hit them with poop stomp from range through all their armor. It's also your get out of jail free card, sometimes, though that depends on the size of the zerg and what kind of skills they're hitting you with.

In terms of sets, I needed to find something that would fit in with Bloodspawn and Wild Hunt. Options include the set I'm wearing, Powerful Assault, along with things like 7th Legion, Clever Alchemist, Trappings of Invogration, Coward's Gear, Cyrodiil's Crest and maybe a few others. Master's 1H+Shield may be strong, but I prefer the utility of Breath against nightblades.

The front bar set could be any damage set. I've used Titanborn, but found that I got nuked too easily by magsorc burst when trying to leap from low health, which was the point of that set. After some duels with my magsorc friend, I decided to try the opposite instead, e.g. Dragonguard. It's not flashy, but I quite like it. New Moon or Spriggan are obvious alternatives. I suppose you could also try proc sets on either bar, but I haven't done so in order to keep Leap and healing at higher values and because I find the DK DOTs work decently well.

Rainfallz

Ty for build, gonne try it out when I'll get my hands on the ring

danthemann5

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Stamdk is a beast and extremely good at punishishing bad players.

100% truth.

Something that I think has been mostly overlooked is how the changes to the major/minor buffs affected green dragon blood. Stam DK sustain went from garbage to absurd overnight.

Urzigurumash

@danthemann5 I've been consistently surprised over the years at how few run GDB, it's severely underrated in my opinion. Same with Molten Armaments. These skills are and always have been strong, for me.

katorga

Warden is best suited to ride the current meta, but I'm doing just fine on Stamsorc with either regular stat builds plus speed, or various proc builds. My favorite so far is just raw speed, bow, crystal weapon, crushing weapon (if I can get the weave off), and torugs pact.....unleashed/azureblight is a lot of fun too.

I want to try a pure health/heavy attack build too, but I don't have the gear from vateshran yet.

I've parked my stamcro, too much hassle for too little return since the nerfs.

danthemann5 wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Stamdk is a beast and extremely good at punishishing bad players.

100% truth.

Something that I think has been mostly overlooked is how the changes to the major/minor buffs affected green dragon blood. Stam DK sustain went from garbage to absurd overnight.

Noticed that on my sorc too. Tri-pots and EV doing real work now. When playing mag, with amberplasm and EV, I can get just enough damage to be effective while having endless sustain for defensive skills. With defiles nerfed, I get huge mileage out of health regen.

Wicked high movement speed is under appreciated for just how difficult it makes for most players to target you.

fred4

Rainfallz wrote: »

Ty for build, gonne try it out when I'll get my hands on the ring

I want to add: What's good about Powerful Assault aside from buffing not just yourself, but your group, is that the buff automatically refreshes whenever you Vigor. To the best of my recollection that is not so with 7th Legion. You have to wait for it to run out, then cast your armor buff again. Clever Alchemist is also something you can mess up by drinking a potion out of combat or on the wrong bar. The weapon damage in my build is really consistent and can go higher with the back bar enchant and Continuous Attack.

Urzigurumash

fred4 wrote: »

Rainfallz wrote: »

Ty for build, gonne try it out when I'll get my hands on the ring

I want to add: What's good about Powerful Assault aside from buffing not just yourself, but your group, is that the buff automatically refreshes whenever you Vigor. To the best of my recollection that is not so with 7th Legion. You have to wait for it to run out, then cast your armor buff again. Clever Alchemist is also something you can mess up by drinking a potion out of combat or on the wrong bar. The weapon damage in my build is really consistent and can go higher with the back bar enchant and Continuous Attack.

Yeah, 7th doesn't refresh, that's its downside, besides the excess drain on mag to keep it up 100% even if you do time it perfectly. I agree with you very much, PA is the best backbar weapon damage buff set for group play.

Urzigurumash

Anyhow @Rainfallz I think @fred4 has a pretty solid build there, can't go wrong with those sets, but don't be shy to try it 5 heavy also, I recommend a Sharpened Maul in 5 heavy rather than Nirnhoned, unless you run a heal on that bar, even if you use Corrosive. Not a massive difference but it would be more damage in the long haul, I believe. A Nirnhoned weapon gets that 15% bonus in 5 medium that it doesn't in heavy. Of course I would also swap out the Wild Hunt ring for Malacath in 5 heavy, since your crit will be very low. Maybe a few Swift to compensate, and/or the Steed Sign. The Infused jewelry trait and Serpent/Warrior signs are all buffed by Medium passives, Steed's HP Regen is buffed by Heavy passives, so it's something to consider. I think the Steed Sign has always been made to go with Heavy Armor in TES games, as far as I can recall.

Ariades_swe

...