The mist form - skill that needs to be examined

Grebcol · January 2021

This skill is cheese and plagues Cyrodiil too. With such nonsens 1 Button Smashers ESO PVP will stay a joke.

Sephyr · January 2021

dcmgti wrote: »

I still honestly don't understand why people are so mad at mist form. If someone has set their build up to just sit in mist then ignore them. I see plenty of troll builds in pvp that I just ignore. If a person is stacking cost reduction then they are giving up damage and healing. If they are using a health recovery set then they are giving up even more damage.

In Gray Host it doesn't take many good players to burst you in mist form even with 30k health and 30k resist. I die in it plenty just trying to kite or LOS. I also see other people die in mist very often. This of course is based on if it actually even works. In heavy lag RaT is superior for escaping just because it works. I have been to 50% and tried to LOS 3 players, they apparently gave up. The stamblade I ran into behind the wall burst me down before I could even get out of mist to heal lol.

Edit to say I know this is BG, I just referenced Grey Host as an example because that's where I primarily pvp. I would expect high MMR BG's to have the same type of players that can burst through mist.

I think it's just that;

People don't ignore the troll builds. If people are getting lured out by these builds, it's the same as what happens with Streak, with Cloak, and those jumping Wardens on the outer edges of a fight trying to get people to chase them.

And for the record, most people are complaining about how some of the abilities allow users to stay in Mist Form, but instead of actually nerfing the actual cause (which would be the abilities interacting with Mist Form), they simply blame Mist Form for doing it's job. In PvP, RaT is generally superior as well because you actually get a speed bonus that they can't outsprint, where as Mist Form, you're maybe just a smidge faster than regular running speed and yet you're slower than full-sprinting speed. So definitely a big agree there.

I see a lot of these Templar builds getting chased though and instead of people ignoring the bait that those builds are dishing out, they're allowing enemy players to come in as a flank - this is in BOTH modes of PvP. In battlegrounds people are taking the bait instead of ignoring the objective - which IS in that video.

But what do we know, we're only looking at the ability as it was clearly designed.

Jeremy · January 2021

HankTwo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Oh please. It takes a huge investment to get your health regen high enough to where you can counter even the average damage of a coordinated attack in a Battleground. And even that requires you to basically sacrifice your entire offense and remain a puddle on the ground that doesn't fight back. How is that "cheesy"? You are literally sacrificing all of your offensive potential to create any semblance of a stubborn defense.

Not really. You need one good health regen set on the backbar like orgnums + health regen buffs from pots, heavy armor, and maybe repentance and you are already close to reaching 3k health regen as vampire stage 1. Thats equivalent to 12k health regen on someone outside of mistform who isnt blocking. So you can still go for a full offensive 5 piece front (like stuhns or war maiden) + malacath + monster set + 1 piece trainee, or something like vate destro + malacath + zaan + 2 piece trainee + 2 piece agility.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Not only that, but it has hard counters such as Knight Slayer that simply ignore it.

Ok, so there are like 2 or 3 sets that counter this defense and that means its balanced? Gotcha.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

And as I pointed out, you can't even use the skill while holding the relic or chaos ball and the capture of flags favors numbers over defense anyway.

So now we balance skills in PvP around their usability in niche relic grab and chaos ball bg modes?

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

This game's PvP certainly has it's fair share of overpowered mechanics and set ups. But Mist From is not among them. It's just functional and actually does something, unlike most of the other defensive options at people's disposal on this game which might as well not even be in the game they are so utterly worthless.

Whats your problem with making the skill less useable as a defacto permanent defense you can camp in and instead make it easier to use for short, smart repositioning on builds that dont stack cost reduction glyphs?

Right now you have magplar builds that get their offense carried by procs (mostly vate destro and zaan with gaplcose spam), that can just camp in mistform indefinitely to easily bypass the zaan cd. Depending on the build they are pretty much 100% unkillable in a 1v1 unless you have strong oblivion damage (which most builds dont use) or are a sorc with very strong burst and good timing on your negate.

I just checked on the build editor how much I could 'cheese' the defense while still having the offense of vate destro + zaan + malacath. This is what I came up with:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301378

Over 4.6k health regen, so to outdamage this you would need at least ~ 2.4k true dps against this build while it is in mistform. Since the build has ~32k resistances and is an altmer for 5% extra mitigation on top of mistform, lets look how much tooltip damage would be required to outdamage the health regen considering the attacker has 15k penetration:
True mitigation = 0.5 [battlespirit] * 0.25 [mistform] * (1-17/66) [resistances] * 0.95 [altmer passive] = 0.0882
--> 2.4k / 0.0882 = 27.2k tooltip damage per second

Now be my guest and log on to a well rounded pvp build, remove all cp, and go to a 3m target dummy and parse. Your sustainable dps wont be even close to that number. And all the while this builds mistform costs a laughable 92 magicka per second.

So lets look at the potential mag sustain of this build outside of mag regen. Even without desert rose it can generate up to:
240 [channeled focus] + 168 [minor magickasteal] + 135 [constitution passive] + 168 [potion on cd] = 711 magicka per second.

So to summarize, a build like this has a mistform that can easily be sustain indefinitely and even better it can restore its mag pool while in it. Furthermore, it has health regen that almost no well rounded pvp build can sustainably outdamage, and it has 47% extra movement speed in mist, which is faster than sprint without extra speedbuffs. And the offense is still okish with up to 13k pen, mala and these 2 proc sets (not great, I admit that, but these 3 offensive sets combined will still give you kills). Its just another form of ultra low risk, decent reward playstyle this patch is plagued with.

Verdict: Mistform on its own might be fine, maybe even a bit underpowered. However, if you start building for it via stacking cost reduction glyphs and/or using sets like desert rose, as well as stacking health regen, it becomes an extremely strong defense, that most PvP builds have no real counter to.

Nah.

In order to get the kind of Mist Form you're talking about a player has to basically sacrifice their entire offense and even then there are still hard counters out there readily available. And being unable to use the ability during nearly half the game modes is hardly "niche". That's a real disadvantage if I've ever read one.

So the skill is fine and none of your arguments have swayed me in the least. A player can sit there in a puddle of mist posing no threat to you what-so-ever - OMG SO OP NERF IT NOW!!! Come on.

The whole argument used against tanks in the past on here is that they shouldn't be able to get good damage and have a good defense at the same time. Now a move comes along that allows for you to create a good defense but renders you absolutely useless offensively. But that's still not good enough?

So it's obvious to me some players aren't going to be happy until they can just burst everyone down in a nanosecond and tanks just go extinct in PvP. Defensive play styles should be viable in this game too - and Mist Form allows for that.

Verdict: Mist Form is fine. Blood Mist would be useless and pointless if you couldn't build to sustain it and then use it as a defense mechanism. It's also not nearly as easy to sustain as you seem to think. Try throwing on Desert Rose and then use Mist Form and see what happens. It's not that simple. It's also a very rare play style. Which is proof right there of just how not over powered it is. Because if it was truly so cheesy and overpowered players would be flocking to it in droves. But they don't. Why? Because it's not that good and anyone who has actually played this kind of build will likely tell you that. So if you don't believe me, just go try it out for yourself. That's all it will take for you to be convinced.

Jeremy · January 2021

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

By that argument you could say the same for streak....

You're taking that argument way out of context because I made a lot of other points too. For example: you don't have to give up all of your offense to use streak effectively.

But I'm not calling for streak to be nerfed either. So I'm not sure why my argument prompted this response. The last thing this game needs is less defensive and escape moves. It needs more of that. Not less. It's already way too easy to die in this game's PvP as it is.

techyeshic · January 2021

Most things out of line seem to point to proc sets covering for their shortcomings.

Dakkx · January 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

By that argument you could say the same for streak....

You're taking that argument way out of context because I made a lot of other points too. For example: you don't have to give up all of your offense to use streak effectively.

But I'm not calling for streak to be nerfed either. So I'm not sure why my argument prompted this response. The last thing this game needs is less defensive and escape moves. It needs more of that. Not less. It's already way too easy to die in this game's PvP as it is.

I don’t see how it’s out of context. You said it’s held back because you can’t use it while holding the relic or the ball which you can’t streak with either. How do you have to give up all your offense when using mist. I’m not trying to pick a fight in actually curious for your reasoning.

Jeremy · January 2021

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

By that argument you could say the same for streak....

You're taking that argument way out of context because I made a lot of other points too. For example: you don't have to give up all of your offense to use streak effectively.

But I'm not calling for streak to be nerfed either. So I'm not sure why my argument prompted this response. The last thing this game needs is less defensive and escape moves. It needs more of that. Not less. It's already way too easy to die in this game's PvP as it is.

I don’t see how it’s out of context. You said it’s held back because you can’t use it while holding the relic or the ball which you can’t streak with either. How do you have to give up all your offense when using mist. I’m not trying to pick a fight in actually curious for your reasoning.

Because that's not nearly the only thing I said that held it back. I also pointed to several other factors, such as having to sacrifice the entirety of your offense. And I don't think you're picking a fight, so don't worry about that.

The poster I was engaged with was talking about players who invest heavily into Mist From so that it can be used as an effective counter defense and sustained indefinitely. Or "cheese" as he/she referred to it. We weren't talking about players who simply slot Mist Form as a means of escape or temporary defense. In that case, you're right - you don't have to sacrifice all of your offense. So I think we're just talking about two different things here.

But in either case: I don't believe streak should be nerfed either. So I just didn't understand where the streak comparison was coming from.

Jeremy · January 2021

dcmgti wrote: »

I still honestly don't understand why people are so mad at mist form. If someone has set their build up to just sit in mist then ignore them. I see plenty of troll builds in pvp that I just ignore. If a person is stacking cost reduction then they are giving up damage and healing. If they are using a health recovery set then they are giving up even more damage.

In Gray Host it doesn't take many good players to burst you in mist form even with 30k health and 30k resist. I die in it plenty just trying to kite or LOS. I also see other people die in mist very often. This of course is based on if it actually even works. In heavy lag RaT is superior for escaping just because it works. I have been to 50% and tried to LOS 3 players, they apparently gave up. The stamblade I ran into behind the wall burst me down before I could even get out of mist to heal lol.

Edit to say I know this is BG, I just referenced Grey Host as an example because that's where I primarily pvp. I would expect high MMR BG's to have the same type of players that can burst through mist.

You're right. It's not that good and no where near being OP.

tonyblack · January 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Oh please. It takes a huge investment to get your health regen high enough to where you can counter even the average damage of a coordinated attack in a Battleground. And even that requires you to basically sacrifice your entire offense and remain a puddle on the ground that doesn't fight back. How is that "cheesy"? You are literally sacrificing all of your offensive potential to create any semblance of a stubborn defense.

Not really. You need one good health regen set on the backbar like orgnums + health regen buffs from pots, heavy armor, and maybe repentance and you are already close to reaching 3k health regen as vampire stage 1. Thats equivalent to 12k health regen on someone outside of mistform who isnt blocking. So you can still go for a full offensive 5 piece front (like stuhns or war maiden) + malacath + monster set + 1 piece trainee, or something like vate destro + malacath + zaan + 2 piece trainee + 2 piece agility.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Not only that, but it has hard counters such as Knight Slayer that simply ignore it.

Ok, so there are like 2 or 3 sets that counter this defense and that means its balanced? Gotcha.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

And as I pointed out, you can't even use the skill while holding the relic or chaos ball and the capture of flags favors numbers over defense anyway.

So now we balance skills in PvP around their usability in niche relic grab and chaos ball bg modes?

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

This game's PvP certainly has it's fair share of overpowered mechanics and set ups. But Mist From is not among them. It's just functional and actually does something, unlike most of the other defensive options at people's disposal on this game which might as well not even be in the game they are so utterly worthless.

Whats your problem with making the skill less useable as a defacto permanent defense you can camp in and instead make it easier to use for short, smart repositioning on builds that dont stack cost reduction glyphs?

Right now you have magplar builds that get their offense carried by procs (mostly vate destro and zaan with gaplcose spam), that can just camp in mistform indefinitely to easily bypass the zaan cd. Depending on the build they are pretty much 100% unkillable in a 1v1 unless you have strong oblivion damage (which most builds dont use) or are a sorc with very strong burst and good timing on your negate.

I just checked on the build editor how much I could 'cheese' the defense while still having the offense of vate destro + zaan + malacath. This is what I came up with:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301378

Over 4.6k health regen, so to outdamage this you would need at least ~ 2.4k true dps against this build while it is in mistform. Since the build has ~32k resistances and is an altmer for 5% extra mitigation on top of mistform, lets look how much tooltip damage would be required to outdamage the health regen considering the attacker has 15k penetration:
True mitigation = 0.5 [battlespirit] * 0.25 [mistform] * (1-17/66) [resistances] * 0.95 [altmer passive] = 0.0882
--> 2.4k / 0.0882 = 27.2k tooltip damage per second

Now be my guest and log on to a well rounded pvp build, remove all cp, and go to a 3m target dummy and parse. Your sustainable dps wont be even close to that number. And all the while this builds mistform costs a laughable 92 magicka per second.

So lets look at the potential mag sustain of this build outside of mag regen. Even without desert rose it can generate up to:
240 [channeled focus] + 168 [minor magickasteal] + 135 [constitution passive] + 168 [potion on cd] = 711 magicka per second.

So to summarize, a build like this has a mistform that can easily be sustain indefinitely and even better it can restore its mag pool while in it. Furthermore, it has health regen that almost no well rounded pvp build can sustainably outdamage, and it has 47% extra movement speed in mist, which is faster than sprint without extra speedbuffs. And the offense is still okish with up to 13k pen, mala and these 2 proc sets (not great, I admit that, but these 3 offensive sets combined will still give you kills). Its just another form of ultra low risk, decent reward playstyle this patch is plagued with.

Verdict: Mistform on its own might be fine, maybe even a bit underpowered. However, if you start building for it via stacking cost reduction glyphs and/or using sets like desert rose, as well as stacking health regen, it becomes an extremely strong defense, that most PvP builds have no real counter to.

Nah.

In order to get the kind of Mist Form you're talking about a player has to basically sacrifice their entire offense and even then there are still hard counters out there readily available. And being unable to use the ability during nearly half the game modes is hardly "niche". That's a real disadvantage if I've ever read one.

So the skill is fine and none of your arguments have swayed me in the least. A player can sit there in a puddle of mist posing no threat to you what-so-ever - OMG SO OP NERF IT NOW!!! Come on.

The whole argument used against tanks in the past on here is that they shouldn't be able to get good damage and have a good defense at the same time. Now a move comes along that allows for you to create a good defense but renders you absolutely useless offensively. But that's still not good enough?

So it's obvious to me some players aren't going to be happy until they can just burst everyone down in a nanosecond and tanks just go extinct in PvP. Defensive play styles should be viable in this game too - and Mist Form allows for that.

Verdict: Mist Form is fine. Blood Mist would be useless and pointless if you couldn't build to sustain it and then use it as a defense mechanism. It's also not nearly as easy to sustain as you seem to think. Try throwing on Desert Rose and then use Mist Form and see what happens. It's not that simple. It's also a very rare play style. Which is proof right there of just how not over powered it is. Because if it was truly so cheesy and overpowered players would be flocking to it in droves. But they don't. Why? Because it's not that good and anyone who has actually played this kind of build will likely tell you that. So if you don't believe me, just go try it out for yourself. That's all it will take for you to be convinced.

Just curious about what hard counters are you talking about? The only one i can think of is negate, and that ultimate is too expensive to waste on a person, who will probably just roll from it and continue to mist. And honestly you can only die in mist form if you are completely outnumbered. Streak and cloak on the other hand are nowhere as powerfull and has much more counterplay (aoe, dots, procs, gap close, etc) in comparison.

Dakkx · January 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Dakkx wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Mist Form is already held back in PvP enough. You can't use it while holing a Relic or Chaosball.

By that argument you could say the same for streak....

You're taking that argument way out of context because I made a lot of other points too. For example: you don't have to give up all of your offense to use streak effectively.

But I'm not calling for streak to be nerfed either. So I'm not sure why my argument prompted this response. The last thing this game needs is less defensive and escape moves. It needs more of that. Not less. It's already way too easy to die in this game's PvP as it is.

I don’t see how it’s out of context. You said it’s held back because you can’t use it while holding the relic or the ball which you can’t streak with either. How do you have to give up all your offense when using mist. I’m not trying to pick a fight in actually curious for your reasoning.

Because that's not nearly the only thing I said that held it back. I also pointed to several other factors, such as having to sacrifice the entirety of your offense. And I don't think you're picking a fight, so don't worry about that.

The poster I was engaged with was talking about players who invest heavily into Mist From so that it can be used as an effective counter defense and sustained indefinitely. Or "cheese" as he/she referred to it. We weren't talking about players who simply slot Mist Form as a means of escape or temporary defense. In that case, you're right - you don't have to sacrifice all of your offense. So I think we're just talking about two different things here.

But in either case: I don't believe streak should be nerfed either. So I just didn't understand where the streak comparison was coming from.

I missed the other part of the conversation lol I tried to look for it too after your last response and didn’t see it. My bad. Carry on

HankTwo · January 2021

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Oh please. It takes a huge investment to get your health regen high enough to where you can counter even the average damage of a coordinated attack in a Battleground. And even that requires you to basically sacrifice your entire offense and remain a puddle on the ground that doesn't fight back. How is that "cheesy"? You are literally sacrificing all of your offensive potential to create any semblance of a stubborn defense.

Not really. You need one good health regen set on the backbar like orgnums + health regen buffs from pots, heavy armor, and maybe repentance and you are already close to reaching 3k health regen as vampire stage 1. Thats equivalent to 12k health regen on someone outside of mistform who isnt blocking. So you can still go for a full offensive 5 piece front (like stuhns or war maiden) + malacath + monster set + 1 piece trainee, or something like vate destro + malacath + zaan + 2 piece trainee + 2 piece agility.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

Not only that, but it has hard counters such as Knight Slayer that simply ignore it.

Ok, so there are like 2 or 3 sets that counter this defense and that means its balanced? Gotcha.

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

And as I pointed out, you can't even use the skill while holding the relic or chaos ball and the capture of flags favors numbers over defense anyway.

So now we balance skills in PvP around their usability in niche relic grab and chaos ball bg modes?

Jeremy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

You can definitely cheese mist form if you use the right setup. Cost reduction glyphs + a set like desert rose lets you regain more magicka than you spend while in mist form if people keep beating on you or if they put enough dots on you.

Afaik health regen also still works when in mist form, so if you are a low stage vampire with a strong health regen set you can even get your health back up. Alternatively, there are some damage shield sets that players could utilize in mist form for essentially 4 times the value but tbf I havent seen that yet.

Dunno, maybe they should lower the base cost a bit but in turn disable any form of mag sustain whatsoever while in mist form.

This game's PvP certainly has it's fair share of overpowered mechanics and set ups. But Mist From is not among them. It's just functional and actually does something, unlike most of the other defensive options at people's disposal on this game which might as well not even be in the game they are so utterly worthless.

Whats your problem with making the skill less useable as a defacto permanent defense you can camp in and instead make it easier to use for short, smart repositioning on builds that dont stack cost reduction glyphs?

Right now you have magplar builds that get their offense carried by procs (mostly vate destro and zaan with gaplcose spam), that can just camp in mistform indefinitely to easily bypass the zaan cd. Depending on the build they are pretty much 100% unkillable in a 1v1 unless you have strong oblivion damage (which most builds dont use) or are a sorc with very strong burst and good timing on your negate.

I just checked on the build editor how much I could 'cheese' the defense while still having the offense of vate destro + zaan + malacath. This is what I came up with:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=301378

Over 4.6k health regen, so to outdamage this you would need at least ~ 2.4k true dps against this build while it is in mistform. Since the build has ~32k resistances and is an altmer for 5% extra mitigation on top of mistform, lets look how much tooltip damage would be required to outdamage the health regen considering the attacker has 15k penetration:
True mitigation = 0.5 [battlespirit] * 0.25 [mistform] * (1-17/66) [resistances] * 0.95 [altmer passive] = 0.0882
--> 2.4k / 0.0882 = 27.2k tooltip damage per second

Now be my guest and log on to a well rounded pvp build, remove all cp, and go to a 3m target dummy and parse. Your sustainable dps wont be even close to that number. And all the while this builds mistform costs a laughable 92 magicka per second.

So lets look at the potential mag sustain of this build outside of mag regen. Even without desert rose it can generate up to:
240 [channeled focus] + 168 [minor magickasteal] + 135 [constitution passive] + 168 [potion on cd] = 711 magicka per second.

So to summarize, a build like this has a mistform that can easily be sustain indefinitely and even better it can restore its mag pool while in it. Furthermore, it has health regen that almost no well rounded pvp build can sustainably outdamage, and it has 47% extra movement speed in mist, which is faster than sprint without extra speedbuffs. And the offense is still okish with up to 13k pen, mala and these 2 proc sets (not great, I admit that, but these 3 offensive sets combined will still give you kills). Its just another form of ultra low risk, decent reward playstyle this patch is plagued with.

Verdict: Mistform on its own might be fine, maybe even a bit underpowered. However, if you start building for it via stacking cost reduction glyphs and/or using sets like desert rose, as well as stacking health regen, it becomes an extremely strong defense, that most PvP builds have no real counter to.

Nah.

In order to get the kind of Mist Form you're talking about a player has to basically sacrifice their entire offense and even then there are still hard counters out there readily available. And being unable to use the ability during nearly half the game modes is hardly "niche". That's a real disadvantage if I've ever read one.

So the skill is fine and none of your arguments have swayed me in the least. A player can sit there in a puddle of mist posing no threat to you what-so-ever - OMG SO OP NERF IT NOW!!! Come on.

The whole argument used against tanks in the past on here is that they shouldn't be able to get good damage and have a good defense at the same time. Now a move comes along that allows for you to create a good defense but renders you absolutely useless offensively. But that's still not good enough?

So it's obvious to me some players aren't going to be happy until they can just burst everyone down in a nanosecond and tanks just go extinct in PvP. Defensive play styles should be viable in this game too - and Mist Form allows for that.

Verdict: Mist Form is fine. Blood Mist would be useless and pointless if you couldn't build to sustain it and then use it as a defense mechanism. It's also not nearly as easy to sustain as you seem to think. Try throwing on Desert Rose and then use Mist Form and see what happens. It's not that simple. It's also a very rare play style. Which is proof right there of just how not over powered it is. Because if it was truly so cheesy and overpowered players would be flocking to it in droves. But they don't. Why? Because it's not that good and anyone who has actually played this kind of build will likely tell you that. So if you don't believe me, just go try it out for yourself. That's all it will take for you to be convinced.

Mate, how is having zaan + vate destro + malacath sacrificing your 'entire offense'? And if you fancy skill damage you can still go something like war maiden/stuhns/draugrkin/... front + balorgh + malacath + ognums backbar + full infused cost reduction (still infinite sustain in mist form, albeit with less health regen). Again, how is that sacricifing your 'entire offense'? If you are not interested in an honest discussion so be it.

Vevvev · January 2021

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Block, Cloak, Dodge Roll, Sprint, etc...also don't cause you to take 20% extra damage from every Dawnbreaker, at all times, nor do they cut off 100% of incoming healing, and only Block also prevents natural resource regeneration. Not to mention the 5-20% extra incoming flame damage, 3-12% increased non-Vampire ability cost, and 10-100% reduction in health regeneration associated with having Mist Form as an option.

If you try escaping with Mist Form against determined opposition that's actually willing to put in some effort to chase - which was not the case in the OP's video - you'd better hope that there's a lot of LOS available, and that your class has a really good burst heal. The damage reduction on Mist Form is good, sure, but it doesn't reduce everything to 0, and a lot of people are going to be sitting on a stun for the instant you pop out of it.

This post outlines why we should leave mistform as it is.

As someone who uses it nothing terrifies me more than people actually dedicated to seeing me die because mistform cannot save me from them. They move faster than me, can place DoTs I cannot purge, and when they finally force me out of it to heal they got that stunned lined up with my name on it. I can try dodge rolling out of it and then using a heal but that only throws off the few projectiles flying towards me, and then I can't re-enter mistform for 1 global cooldown which is long enough for who knows what to hit me next.

GarnetFire17 · February 2021

Cost: Nothing -- definitely is something to reconsider. If you want people to abuse mistform then make is so that they have to build around that idea and give up something.

wheem_ESO · February 2021

GarnetFire17 wrote: »

Cost: Nothing -- definitely is something to reconsider. If you want people to abuse mistform then make is so that they have to build around that idea and give up something.

That "Cost: Nothing" that's shown in the video is flat out wrong. As I've stated in other posts, Mist Form costs 852 magicka per second on a Breton (7% cost reduction) Vampire at Stage 1.

The "abuse" of Mist Form happens when someone is running infused jewelry with cost reduction enchants, and potentially stacking that with very high health regen while staying in Stage 1. There's also probably an argument to be made about certain abilities returning magicka while in Mist Form (such as a Templar's Rune), but I think the enchants and health regen are bigger issues.

Outside of "Mist Form builds," I don't think anyone is really running 3x infused cost reduction jewelry, so they are technically already giving up something. That said, I do think something should be done about these "perma Mist Form" builds, since they're supposedly quite common on some platforms (though fortunately are essentially unicorns in PC-NA Battlegrounds). But that "something" that ZOS may eventually do shouldn't ruin Mist Form itself - some of the nerf-suggestions that I've seen would do exactly that.

nckg84 · February 2021

Mist form alone might not be broken but it's the combination of multiple things combined that creates a hard carry. I run it myself and it literrally carries me through 1vX situations that i'm NOT supposed to survive.

99% of the people running mist use it as a carry. There supposed to die no matter how many times they yell out that they don't want to die to these "clowns". There not clowns you should not be in that 1vx situation in the first place.

I can name up 15+ names here that without mist would have alot worse kdr in bg's (me included)

techyeshic · February 2021

I run it on my stamplar. I can't stay in it long. Don't Want to even as long as I can because I want my mag for ER. But it's great seeing as stamplar has no real defensive to shake direct focus. You can cleanse dots but they're easily reapplied and that doesn't help with initial damage. Stamplar also does not have a stam burst heal so it's great for hitting rally get a heal and refreshs, roll, mist a couple seconds, roll,, get a rally heal worth a damned. And of course it's a WD buff, you can use it to get through a breech, and recover stam while being defensive.

A bit overloaded but it's also.what allows me to play stamplar over stamden in the current meta.

nckg84 · February 2021

techyeshic wrote: »

I run it on my stamplar. I can't stay in it long. Don't Want to even as long as I can because I want my mag for ER. But it's great seeing as stamplar has no real defensive to shake direct focus. You can cleanse dots but they're easily reapplied and that doesn't help with initial damage. Stamplar also does not have a stam burst heal so it's great for hitting rally get a heal and refreshs, roll, mist a couple seconds, roll,, get a rally heal worth a damned. And of course it's a WD buff, you can use it to get through a breech, and recover stam while being defensive.

A bit overloaded but it's also.what allows me to play stamplar over stamden in the current meta.

Which only shows the inbalance of things.

Mist in it's current form needs a balance pass. Start by disabling health recovery and evaluate after some time (although health recovery in a whole needs to be looked at). Proper players can use it as an escape option to 'try' to get out and around a corner for a rally heal instead of an 'i survive' option.

Sometimes there are these hours in BG's that just pisses you off. Always the same people running it you beat them fair and square and they mist away from you till there health is back up. Meanwhile they run around with 12/0 thinking there popeye.