Separation of DLC and non-DLC dungeons?

GreenhaloX

All right, hey.. not so bad for a starter of the event this time around. Maybe I'm jumping the gun or whatnot, but, will give credit when credits are due. Only crashed once in 4 dungeons. So, not bad so far, and only waited around 10-15 minutes per queuing; a breeze when you're occupied doing other dailies.

Ok, now.. just food for thoughts here.. for the good folks at the dev and ZOS lounge. Wait.. are they still ZOS or MOS now? Anyways.. hear me out. How about grouping DLC and non-DLC dungeons into two separate queuing categories? I may be the black sheep here, but I just do not enjoy the DLC dungeons; normal or whatnot. Maybe my head and fingers are not wired well enough for the craziness. It would be nice or ideal for wimps like me to just be able to do the random daily undaunted on any of the non-DLC ones when random queuing. I enjoy it a lot when I do queue with my new lowbie characters and just getting the normal non-DLC dungeons.

Personally, I really don't care much for the hey, look my cool skins, title, the gears or leaderboard race. I mean, I'm just going in there for XP, skills leveling and undaunted points anyways. Perhaps, possible sometime within any of the next installment of year-round chapter/DLCs? Yeah?

Eedat

The issue is splitting queues always makes queue times longer and not everyone has the time to sit around and wait. If anything, they should keep normal queue the same and split up only Vet dungeons.

Taleof2Cities

Random dungeon means random, @GreenhaloX ... a selection from all possibilities.

If you don’t want to run DLC dungeons for tickets, simply choose the dungeons you’re willing to run manually by checking the box in the group finder.

As mentioned above, splitting the queue will make it longer for everyone involved.

zvavi

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Random dungeon means random... a selection from all possibilities.

If you don’t want to run DLC dungeons for tickets, simply choose the dungeons you’re willing to run manually by checking the box in the group finder.

As mentioned above, splitting the queue will make it longer for everyone involved.

No... You get a selection from vet or norm, not all possible selections, this "random means random" argument won't fly, because they might as well have called it "random dlc" and 'random non dlc" and pair vets and normals together.

Splitting queue will rightfully make queues longer, but imho might be a good thing, since many those that get dlc as their random, just leave, making the "random" not so random anyway (and actually hitting those who queue for dlc anyway).

So ye, random will go slower, non dlc random will not get hit because that's the most of where people queue, and dlc randoms will get more groups that don't drop it right away, making queues longer, but actually creating full groups.

Everest_Lionheart

20 minutes in normal queue, load into liar of maarselok. Check group comp, me DPS CP764, other DPS CP155, healer CP133, tank CP116.

***Puts on pale order ring and earthgore, slots ice fortress and healing mushrooms***

OK team I got you! If you disconnect we will wait. Hope you aren’t expecting a quick run!

Fennwitty

I'm still of the opinion that overall queue times will go up -- specifically for DLC dungeons. But it seems enough people would really prefer the option to exclude DLC from the 'random normal' queue at the least.

From experience, I remember getting random normal DLC Frostvault and Depths of Malatar in the last couple months. Initially it was an eye-roll and I immediately studied my groupmembers' levels.

But they turned out pretty fun. With the Frostvault group it turned out great and we farmed it a few extra times for gear with the same PUG. And DoM none of us had done before, so we had to figure out the mechanics (with a little cheating to check guides online) but was ultimately a great time.

Now if I was time-crunched or got bad groups ... then yeah it would have sucked.

So I'm now in favor of allowing 'random normal' at least the option to exclude DLC dungeons. Not sure if the queue system is smart enough to handle that though ...

Taleof2Cities

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Random dungeon means random... a selection from all possibilities.

If you don’t want to run DLC dungeons for tickets, simply choose the dungeons you’re willing to run manually by checking the box in the group finder.

As mentioned above, splitting the queue will make it longer for everyone involved.

No... You get a selection from vet or norm, not all possible selections, this "random means random" argument won't fly, because they might as well have called it "random dlc" and 'random non dlc" and pair vets and normals together.

Splitting queue will rightfully make queues longer, but imho might be a good thing, since many those that get dlc as their random, just leave, making the "random" not so random anyway (and actually hitting those who queue for dlc anyway).

So ye, random will go slower, non dlc random will not get hit because that's the most of where people queue, and dlc randoms will get more groups that don't drop it right away, making queues longer, but actually creating full groups.

Please feel free to share your in-game data that shows the slower queue times will be offset by better matchmaking (in a split queue), @zvavi.

Jeremy

GreenhaloX wrote: »

All right, hey.. not so bad for a starter of the event this time around. Maybe I'm jumping the gun or whatnot, but, will give credit when credits are due. Only crashed once in 4 dungeons. So, not bad so far, and only waited around 10-15 minutes per queuing; a breeze when you're occupied doing other dailies.

Ok, now.. just food for thoughts here.. for the good folks at the dev and ZOS lounge. Wait.. are they still ZOS or MOS now? Anyways.. hear me out. How about grouping DLC and non-DLC dungeons into two separate queuing categories? I may be the black sheep here, but I just do not enjoy the DLC dungeons; normal or whatnot. Maybe my head and fingers are not wired well enough for the craziness. It would be nice or ideal for wimps like me to just be able to do the random daily undaunted on any of the non-DLC ones when random queuing. I enjoy it a lot when I do queue with my new lowbie characters and just getting the normal non-DLC dungeons.

Personally, I really don't care much for the hey, look my cool skins, title, the gears or leaderboard race. I mean, I'm just going in there for XP, skills leveling and undaunted points anyways. Perhaps, possible sometime within any of the next installment of year-round chapter/DLCs? Yeah?

Yeah, they should have done this awhile ago. Many DLC dungeons are in a different tier of challenge than none DLC ones, so much so that completely different builds are often required. They should be separated.

kargen27

The random dungeon finder is in place to help players that want to do a specific dungeon fill their group. The XP bonus for doing a daily random gives people incentive to join a random group going to a random dungeon giving players that want to do a specific dungeon a decent chance of being able to end up in a group. Separating DLC from non DLC takes away the random factor and it would be much harder for people who want a specific DLC dungeon to find a group.

Many players have this fear of DLC dungeons that really isn't justified. When I get a reluctant player in a group I suggest we go to the first boss and see how that works. Quitting gets you a penalty anyway so you might as well try. Often after the first boss we keep going. There are times that it becomes dreadfully obvious we are going to fail so we all move on our merry way. Also sometimes a player gets impatient and will leave. Sucks when that happens but sometimes we get a replacement either another random or asking a guild mate.

Back to the topic though. The random group finder needs to include all dungeons. Players who do not want to do specific dungeons should queue for the dungeons they do want to run. The bonus XP is there to entice players to queue for a random.

Kurat

Most dlc dungeons can be soloed on normal and are now easier than ever with the ring of pale order. If you wanna get FG1 then queue for it.

Faiza

I just don't really think separating the queue will have a big enough change on player behavior to make a difference.

Players who aren't ready for them will still queue for DLC

Experienced players who don't have the patience for normals are still going to queue for normals...

Unless the daily reward for the normal queue was lessened or removed, removing the incentive to do it. Then there will definitely still be unprepared players in the dlc queue because the reward is a better incentive to do it at all. Everyone remains unhappy. ☹

Tsar_Gekkou

They just need to let us toggle our ESO+ benefits on and off at will, so we can turn them off before queueing for a dungeon. People who don't have ESO+ don't get punished with random dlc dungeons, but the people who pay $15 a month do.

Athan1

Yes please. I want to random vet but can't bc half of the time I land into vet dlc. I'm a casual, ain't nobody got time for this

kargen27

Faiza wrote: »

I just don't really think separating the queue will have a big enough change on player behavior to make a difference.

Players who aren't ready for vet will still queue for vet.

Vet players who don't have the patience for normals are still going to queue for normals...

Unless the daily reward for the normal queue was lessened or removed, removing the incentive to do it. Then there will definitely still be unprepared players in the vet queue because the reward is a better incentive to do it at all. Everyone remains unhappy. ☹

Faiza wrote: »

I just don't really think separating the queue will have a big enough change on player behavior to make a difference.

Players who aren't ready for vet will still queue for vet.

Vet players who don't have the patience for normals are still going to queue for normals...

Unless the daily reward for the normal queue was lessened or removed, removing the incentive to do it. Then there will definitely still be unprepared players in the vet queue because the reward is a better incentive to do it at all. Everyone remains unhappy. ☹

Removing the incentive to do normal dungeons would only increase the number of players queuing for vet dungeons. The rewards for doing vet and normal random are the same. The queues for vet and normal are already separate. What some want is for DLC and non-DLC dungeons to be separate.

Kurat

I like dlcs but sometimes when I don't have much play time I do base game "random" by inventing low level in group. Theres no need to split queues. I'm in several large guilds and someone is always leveling new character. And if asking in guilds doesn't give me a lowbie quick then I just go and ask in zone where noobs hang, like Auridon or Stonefalls. From there I get low level instantly, sometimes entire group. Then we queue and get FG1 lol.

I dont get why people sit in long queue, get dlc and then complain. Use your head

hafgood

If you don't want a dlc dungeon take in a low level character, problem solved.

Don't split the queues, dlc dungeons are generally harder but once you get to know them most of them can be completed fairly comfortably by 4 dd's. Yes a tank may help but you certainly don't need a healer.

Dlc dungeons are scary. Players are scared to do them because they are harder, which they are. But the more you do them the quicker you get at them.

I accept doing with PUGs will be a challenge which is why I rarely PUG, wpuld much rather queue with friends and then see where we end up.

Its all about the adventure....

Stinkyremy

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

20 minutes in normal queue, load into liar of maarselok. Check group comp, me DPS CP764, other DPS CP155, healer CP133, tank CP116.

***Puts on pale order ring and earthgore, slots ice fortress and healing mushrooms***

OK team I got you! If you disconnect we will wait. Hope you aren’t expecting a quick run!

Had a similar thing yesterday but in CoH2 vet and I was a real tank.
Really annoying, I only want to do random dungeon for crystals and event.

spartaxoxo

I have trained a lot of people through random dlc dungeons that were very happy they could finally get it done over the years. Sure sometimes they get groups that can't do it and have to lead. But others time they finally get a group that can do the content, because good players came in and helped them out and taught them how to do it. Guild system failed them but random saved the day.

Why should these players be deprived of that, when it's a primary reason for the system's existence?

This is how a lot of players slowly make the transition from casual to mid tier players, and it's fantastic at helping them make that transition. It should be left in place.

Everest_Lionheart

Stinkyremy wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

20 minutes in normal queue, load into liar of maarselok. Check group comp, me DPS CP764, other DPS CP155, healer CP133, tank CP116.

***Puts on pale order ring and earthgore, slots ice fortress and healing mushrooms***

OK team I got you! If you disconnect we will wait. Hope you aren’t expecting a quick run!

Had a similar thing yesterday but in CoH2 vet and I was a real tank.
Really annoying, I only want to do random dungeon for crystals and event.

I learned coh2 on a pug myself. Was good up until the next to last boss, had to ask for mechs and passed it after 1 wipe. Same for final boss, asked for mechs and was told what to do and we cleared no problem.

If players would just speak up when they don’t know things would go so much better.

I took a similarly under leveled group through MoS a few weeks ago. Nobody was getting the mechanics for the final 3 bosses and the tank was a fake. Finally we got a max CP healer to take some pressure off for the last 2 bosses. Without having to focus on keeping 2 low CP alive I could DPS the rest myself. They were more like cannon fodder but hopefully they learned in the process.

Shadow_CH

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Stinkyremy wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

20 minutes in normal queue, load into liar of maarselok. Check group comp, me DPS CP764, other DPS CP155, healer CP133, tank CP116.

***Puts on pale order ring and earthgore, slots ice fortress and healing mushrooms***

OK team I got you! If you disconnect we will wait. Hope you aren’t expecting a quick run!

Had a similar thing yesterday but in CoH2 vet and I was a real tank.
Really annoying, I only want to do random dungeon for crystals and event.

I learned coh2 on a pug myself. Was good up until the next to last boss, had to ask for mechs and passed it after 1 wipe. Same for final boss, asked for mechs and was told what to do and we cleared no problem.

If players would just speak up when they don’t know things would go so much better.

I took a similarly under leveled group through MoS a few weeks ago. Nobody was getting the mechanics for the final 3 bosses and the tank was a fake. Finally we got a max CP healer to take some pressure off for the last 2 bosses. Without having to focus on keeping 2 low CP alive I could DPS the rest myself. They were more like cannon fodder but hopefully they learned in the process.

Last time i asked for mechs (nMoS) tank and healer left insantly

Back to topic: i like the idea of separting DLC and non-DLC dungeons. Some times I'm in a hurry and want to do a random for the transmutes but i wont do it because i could get a DLC dungeon.

grkkll

2 choices, random and random non random dlc. Transmute reward only for full random

Bobby_V_Rockit

Agreed, I bail on every DLC dungeon I get out of principle. Random base game please! Why are we being punished for wanting the craft bag?

ZaroktheImmortal

For me it's not that I don't enjoy them but the dlc ones tend to be long and when you just want a random normal it can be a bit much to go through a whole dlc dungeon.

Ryuvain

You know, I understood the bailing on dlc dungeon thing but never did it myself. I'm gonna have to go with leaving it alone.

Some people actually like the doc dungeons or want sets out of them. With the queue split it would maybe triple the waiting time.

If it was split in vet I would agree, but normals can be passed by low levels too. If I pugged vet bloodroot with constant one shots I think normal would be a breeze. Even had half a team of under 50 level pugs and still beat nMoS.

Dlc dungeons were daunting to me too until I tried them.

Bobby_V_Rockit

grkkll wrote: »

2 choices, random and random non random dlc. Transmute reward only for full random

So non-ESO+ get no transmute stones?

Larcomar

Look, there are good arguments on both sides of this, some for a separate queue (let people choose etc), some for keeping it merged (esp longer queue times etc).

But the fundamental issue here is that people who pay for ESO + are disadvantaged compared to people who don't. That's absolutely bonkers. From a commercial standpoint.

I love having the craft bag and access to the dlc zones like hews bane and orsinium. But I've just cancelled Eso+ because I want to run RNDs for transmutes and during the festival, and can't be bothered to deal with dlc dungeons in my RND queue.

I actually quite like some of them but some have mechanics that make pugging them a pain in the ass, some are bugged to hell (looking at you fang lair) and far far too many of them are just tediuos - they seem to go on forever. I can run 2 or 3 base game rnds in the time it takes to do a dlc.

I can't believe I'm the only person who's done that, at least for the duration of the undaunted festival. That's a pretty weird position for a commercial company to get itself in.

If you don't want to bother with dlc dungeons popping up as rnds, and really realy need the craft bag, as other have said, the other option is to grab a lowbie. My guild, people advertise that they're low level when looking for others. It's seen as a positive!

svendf

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

20 minutes in normal queue, load into liar of maarselok. Check group comp, me DPS CP764, other DPS CP155, healer CP133, tank CP116.

***Puts on pale order ring and earthgore, slots ice fortress and healing mushrooms***

OK team I got you! If you disconnect we will wait. Hope you aren’t expecting a quick run!

Ok. don´t know if you try to troll or be someone important. Not all do have those tthings you mention.

So! You are a bit out off touch, with what other player´s have acces to in this game

svendf

I feel OP do have a point here. We are a blend of young, older people in this game and not allway´s in the mood for vet DLC or for the matter a norm DLC.

Some when enter these dungdeons take chances or hope for a carry. You can even encounter fake roles and it´s not everyday one is in the mood to tackle these fake individuals.

We have all payed for ESO and should be able to pick, what we wanna to do for the sake of our health or, whatever.

I do not believe in longer ques untill it is proven and tested to it´s fullest - same goes for fake role issues.

I´m in on this. Good post

Aznarb

GreenhaloX wrote: »

All right, hey.. not so bad for a starter of the event this time around. Maybe I'm jumping the gun or whatnot, but, will give credit when credits are due. Only crashed once in 4 dungeons. So, not bad so far, and only waited around 10-15 minutes per queuing; a breeze when you're occupied doing other dailies.

Imagine being so used to play in an incredibly poor perf game since so long than you fell happy when you get few less bug.
"give credit when credit are due"
Uuuff..

zvavi

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Random dungeon means random... a selection from all possibilities.

If you don’t want to run DLC dungeons for tickets, simply choose the dungeons you’re willing to run manually by checking the box in the group finder.

As mentioned above, splitting the queue will make it longer for everyone involved.

No... You get a selection from vet or norm, not all possible selections, this "random means random" argument won't fly, because they might as well have called it "random dlc" and 'random non dlc" and pair vets and normals together.

Splitting queue will rightfully make queues longer, but imho might be a good thing, since many those that get dlc as their random, just leave, making the "random" not so random anyway (and actually hitting those who queue for dlc anyway).

So ye, random will go slower, non dlc random will not get hit because that's the most of where people queue, and dlc randoms will get more groups that don't drop it right away, making queues longer, but actually creating full groups.

Please feel free to share your in-game data that shows the slower queue times will be offset by better matchmaking (in a split queue).

People like this.

Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »

Agreed, I bail on every DLC dungeon I get out of principle. Random base game please! Why are we being punished for wanting the craft bag?

You might be correct though, dlc queue will get a major hit for it, but it is better to group up in guild anyway, but non dlc ones, will get many more people.

GreenhaloX

kargen27 wrote: »

Faiza wrote: »

I just don't really think separating the queue will have a big enough change on player behavior to make a difference.

Players who aren't ready for vet will still queue for vet.

Vet players who don't have the patience for normals are still going to queue for normals...

Unless the daily reward for the normal queue was lessened or removed, removing the incentive to do it. Then there will definitely still be unprepared players in the vet queue because the reward is a better incentive to do it at all. Everyone remains unhappy. ☹

Faiza wrote: »

I just don't really think separating the queue will have a big enough change on player behavior to make a difference.

Players who aren't ready for vet will still queue for vet.

Vet players who don't have the patience for normals are still going to queue for normals...

Unless the daily reward for the normal queue was lessened or removed, removing the incentive to do it. Then there will definitely still be unprepared players in the vet queue because the reward is a better incentive to do it at all. Everyone remains unhappy. ☹

Removing the incentive to do normal dungeons would only increase the number of players queuing for vet dungeons. The rewards for doing vet and normal random are the same. The queues for vet and normal are already separate. What some want is for DLC and non-DLC dungeons to be separate.

Yes, this.. just like there currently to separate options to either queue for vet or normal, have same for DLC and non-DLC dungeons.

Larcomar wrote: »

Look, there are good arguments on both sides of this, some for a separate queue (let people choose etc), some for keeping it merged (esp longer queue times etc).

But the fundamental issue here is that people who pay for ESO + are disadvantaged compared to people who don't. That's absolutely bonkers. From a commercial standpoint.

I love having the craft bag and access to the dlc zones like hews bane and orsinium. But I've just cancelled Eso+ because I want to run RNDs for transmutes and during the festival, and can't be bothered to deal with dlc dungeons in my RND queue.

I actually quite like some of them but some have mechanics that make pugging them a pain in the ass, some are bugged to hell (looking at you fang lair) and far far too many of them are just tediuos - they seem to go on forever. I can run 2 or 3 base game rnds in the time it takes to do a dlc.

I can't believe I'm the only person who's done that, at least for the duration of the undaunted festival. That's a pretty weird position for a commercial company to get itself in.

If you don't want to bother with dlc dungeons popping up as rnds, and really realy need the craft bag, as other have said, the other option is to grab a lowbie. My guild, people advertise that they're low level when looking for others. It's seen as a positive!

Yeah.. tell you what, if only the craft bag is a separate option for purchase in the crown store or something. Alas, with profit's always the top means of businesses, that will surely never happen.