An Anti-Zerg set idea

Rebirthment

Was thinking about all the complaints about the ballgroups and zergs and it gave me an idea for a set that could be dropped or bought in Cyrodiil.

NOTE: Set prob isn't perfect but just a thought i had that should apply some pressure against large groups.

Set bonus
(2 items) Adds x Maximum Magicka
(3 items) Adds x Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds x Spell damage
(5 items) Adds x Spell penetration
When you apply a DOT to an enemy player, you place an uncleansable daedric curse on them that deals x Magic damage in a 10m radius over 10 seconds the DOT increases by 30% per player that is in the radius capping at 8 players max. This effect can occur once every 20 seconds. Players can not be affected or damaged by more than 1 daedric curse at a time.

So the damage starts pretty low on a single player as much as a pretty meh DOT but RAPIDLY gets stronger the more players around the target. Because it can't be cleansed i think it'd be great against those pesky ball groups who now have to coordinate on who is cursed that way they can't be hugging each other 24/7 which makes it easier to kill them off one by one.

basically i want the set to be an effective anti measure against them but not without counterplay. If the group is coordinated, the guy that is cursed will leave away from the group which makes the dot pretty weak and will have to do survive for the next 10 seconds or so away from the group (LOS + self heal etc) before they can go back. This should help pick each one off one by one as the person with set can't curse again 10 seconds after the curse is over (20 sec CD)

So pretty much if you really want this to counter a zerg hard you would need other people with this set

Ik this isn't perfect but i thought this up in like 5 mins lol LMK what y'all think!

Leslik

So it's similar to soul splitting trap from a few patches ago but it cant be purged. That got nerfed as it was predictably abused and not the best of ideas to begin with.

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea but at this point in time changes are kinda like new bug bingo. Most changes seem to have the opposite to the intended effect.

We all want more performance and less lag but the net effect seem to be same lag and more bugs

Gilvoth

i love this set idea, it would spread people out and help lower lagg.
i vote yes for this set. i hope they make it.

Leslik

Gilvoth wrote: »

i love this set idea, it would spread people out and help lower lagg.
i vote yes for this set. i hope they make it.

you're fooling yourself with wishful thinking if you genuinely believe this will help with lag. the silver lining is not there

Rebirthment

Leslik wrote: »

So it's similar to soul splitting trap from a few patches ago but it cant be purged. That got nerfed as it was predictably abused and not the best of ideas to begin with.

I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea but at this point in time changes are kinda like new bug bingo. Most changes seem to have the opposite to the intended effect.

We all want more performance and less lag but the net effect seem to be same lag and more bugs

Actually didn't think of performance issues behind this idea lol but more of the ball group/zerg issue thats been plaguing cyro for so long. Idk about the nerf patches ago since i wasn't active then but basically i want the set to be an effective anti measure against them but not without counterplay. Basically if the group is coordinated, the guy that is cursed will leave away from the group which makes the dot pretty weak and will have to do survive for the next 10 seconds or so away from the group (LOS + self heal etc) before they can go back. This should help pick each one off one by one as the person with set can't curse again 10 seconds after the curse is over (20 sec CD)

So pretty much if you really want this to counter a zerg hard you would need other people with this set

Eedat

I don't do much Cyro PvP, but I really cant wrap my head around why people complain about organized groups there so much. That's practically the point of Cyro lol. That is literally playing the game as intended. Play BGs if you dont like being in a large group. Or go pick duels in IC. Or go to the duel area in Wayrest.

I don't understand why people cry about organized group PvP in the area that is obviously designed around organized group PvP. Especially when there are other options. It makes legit zero sense to me.

Yellow_Monolith

Anti zerg sets don't work. They just end up getting used by ballgroups i.e vicious death and eventually ball groups merge and become a zerg.

Miszou

So.... when a large number of people swarm a location, people get salty because they get overrun?

Maybe I don't see the problem, but... isn't that how things are supposed to work?

Eedat wrote: »

I don't do much Cyro PvP, but I really cant wrap my head around why people complain about organized groups there so much. That's practically the point of Cyro lol. That is literally playing the game as intended. Play BGs if you dont like being in a large group. Or go pick duels in IC. Or go to the duel area in Wayrest.

I don't understand why people cry about organized group PvP in the area that is obviously designed around organized group PvP. Especially when there are other options. It makes legit zero sense to me.

Right?

Complaining about getting run over by superior numbers is just bizarre to me.

VaranisArano

Why are you not just using Inevitable Detonation?

(I know why. It's because you need several people casting it in a semi-organized fashion to actually make the ball group pay attention. The only way this set doesn't run into the same issue is if you make it overpowered.)

Rebirthment

I never complained myself about them. But i do see the issue on how strong they are and while its true that cyro is meant for large scale there isn't much of a counter to them besides another organized ball group. This is just an idea on a way to help counter them though not completely shut down ball groups

vgastel

Was there ever a clear conclusion from the tests as to what causes the most lag? Zergs? If yes, grouped or ungrouped? Ball groups? Or AOE skills in general?

Cyrodiil was always meant to be large scale armies fighting each other. Like it or not, groups cause action, without them no keep would ever flip. Don't understand why some persist that an ideal Cyrodiil should be a place for solo players. Plenty of other options for that, duelling, IC, BG.

VaranisArano

vgastel wrote: »

Was there ever a clear conclusion from the tests as to what causes the most lag? Zergs? If yes, grouped or ungrouped? Ball groups? Or AOE skills in general?

Cyrodiil was always meant to be large scale armies fighting each other. Like it or not, groups cause action, without them no keep would ever flip. Don't understand why some persist that an ideal Cyrodiil should become a place for solo players. Plenty of other options for that, duelling, IC, BG.

None of the things ZOS tested made a big enough difference to be noticable on the player-side of things.

ZOS said they made the group size and healing changes because they liked the change to player behavior.

PizzaCat82

1. Make siege matter against more than walls and doors.
2. Make Caltrops matter especially inside a keep.

JamieAubrey

And Ball groups will find a way to use it to their advantage, same thing they added Proxy Det and VD set, to counter Zergs and GUESS WHAT HAPPENED ?

virtus753

Miszou wrote: »

So.... when a large number of people swarm a location, people get salty because they get overrun?

Maybe I don't see the problem, but... isn't that how things are supposed to work?

Eedat wrote: »

I don't do much Cyro PvP, but I really cant wrap my head around why people complain about organized groups there so much. That's practically the point of Cyro lol. That is literally playing the game as intended. Play BGs if you dont like being in a large group. Or go pick duels in IC. Or go to the duel area in Wayrest.

I don't understand why people cry about organized group PvP in the area that is obviously designed around organized group PvP. Especially when there are other options. It makes legit zero sense to me.

Right?

Complaining about getting run over by superior numbers is just bizarre to me.

Coordinated ball groups produce far more server messages per player per second than even a large zerg. As such, they noticeably lag out players and can even cause the game client to disconnect or crash, which constitutes an issue that is much more serious than “superior numbers.” If coordinated ball groups did not have the performance impact that they currently do (as acknowledged and explained by ZOS), then the debate would come down to a matter of balance and playstyle. But the problem is that the game cannot effectively handle the server spam of an efficient ball group, and even if the ball group members are not responsible for the technical deficiencies of the game, as players who are participating in an online game with others they also can’t disregard the negative performance impact of their behavior with impunity. They are not playing in a vacuum. When what they do severely degrades and even stops the actual performance of the game for other players, and it does do that, then the behavior needs to stop until such time as the game can handle it. Until then, questions about balance and numbers are moot by comparison.

JamieAubrey

Eedat wrote: »

I don't do much Cyro PvP, but I really cant wrap my head around why people complain about organized groups there so much. That's practically the point of Cyro lol. That is literally playing the game as intended. Play BGs if you dont like being in a large group. Or go pick duels in IC. Or go to the duel area in Wayrest.

I don't understand why people cry about organized group PvP in the area that is obviously designed around organized group PvP. Especially when there are other options. It makes legit zero sense to me.

I wouldn't mind if this group didn't use the same 3 skills between them, Say your Attacking a Keep and both sides are similar, the defending group will ALWAYS call for a ball group to come help, be that a DC/EP group and all they will do is run in the keep and run across the walls with 24/7 perma heals pulling away any attackers and letting the defenders slowly push out while the ball group that came to help does Jack

Not every group is using the meta sets/skills to deal with this, the only way to kill them is to standing in one spot while they run around and come back to you and hopefully you manage to get the healer after 30 mins watching people chase them round and when you do manage to kill them be assured there's a NB that peels off to place a camp and let's them come back to do it all over again

robpr

Best anti-zerg time we had when for that short moment sieges did 3x damage to players than they should.

Leslik

I'm sorry but I have no time for anti group whiners. If you really have a problem with groups then you obviously went to the Prometheus school of running away from things. LEARN TO RUN SIDEWAYS!

spartaxoxo

Miszou wrote: »

So.... when a large number of people swarm a location, people get salty because they get overrun?

Maybe I don't see the problem, but... isn't that how things are supposed to work?

Eedat wrote: »

I don't do much Cyro PvP, but I really cant wrap my head around why people complain about organized groups there so much. That's practically the point of Cyro lol. That is literally playing the game as intended. Play BGs if you dont like being in a large group. Or go pick duels in IC. Or go to the duel area in Wayrest.

I don't understand why people cry about organized group PvP in the area that is obviously designed around organized group PvP. Especially when there are other options. It makes legit zero sense to me.

Right?

Complaining about getting run over by superior numbers is just bizarre to me.

It's moreso the performance issues that occurs when it happens than the losing aspect for a lot of people. Perfomance gets really bad when too many people are at a keep.

bmnoble

Whats stopping the ball groups or zergs from making use of the set?

The point of Cyrodiil is for large scale PVP, no matter what sets they release what balance changes they decide to force on players, they will never balance groups of players who know how to work together and know their classes well.

For all these people wanting to have duels they should add a new smaller PVP zone, that does not allow grouping and alliances don't matter.

notyuu

that sounds like magicka detionation with extra steps

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

As someone who plays in group I'd just run this set and delete all enemies who try to faction stack me down. Please implement it

If you want something which would actually hurt groups a bit more than it hurts pugs it would be something which buffed siege damage/effects etc. Groups like mine generally don't have much opportunity to siege because they are outnumbered and so have to constantly move whereas pugs and faction stackers can just sit in the back somewhere firing sieging all they like.

Gythral

join zerg
play BG

Cyrodil was designed for 'zerg' play - or at the very least group vs group...

Kredo

Great idea, remember how well that went with Vicious Death?

VaranisArano

For all the "buff siege" people out there, ZOS already did that with Summerset.

Remember what happened? Two things: either a guild raid PvDoored the keep before the defenders could arrive so they avoided heavy siege fire OR the siege was a long, brutal fight as the zerg opened multiple breaches in the walls to try to force their way in past murderous siege fire. If you weren't in a ball group with dedicated healers, good luck making it through that breach.

So, uh, were you planning on this change buffing ball groups again? Because that's what buffed siege did last time.

And were you planning on performance suffering as keep battles drag on and on because attackers need multiple breaches to press in? Because that's what buffed siege did last time.

Its also why ZOS reverted the Summerset siege buffs. I'm not sure why you think they would try it again, expecting different results.

Artim_X

They should slightly buff shooting star's radius hehe. Look back and watch me smack them, all on the floor. Smack them, give them some more. Smack them, 'til they get sore. Smack them, oh-oh-oh-oh-oh!

I once was able to drop it three times in a row, since this ball group was standing on top of each other in the corner of the wayshrine

Ranger209

Make these small modifications to Vicious Death and Proxy Det and it would be a good start. This set and skill were implemented to help deal with ball groups, but instead because of the way they work ball groups use them to their advantage.

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group


Proximity Detonation
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Skill description
Activate a magical bomb on yourself that explodes after 8 seconds, dealing 636 Magic Damage to all enemies in the area. Each enemy within the bomb's radius increases the damage by 25%.
New effect
You become the center of the detonation. Removes cast time, but doubles the duration it takes to detonate.
Each group member within the bomb's radius decreases the damage done by 25%

Bump the radius of vicious death up to 14 meters from its current 4 meter radius and then have it shrink by 1 meter for each group member down to 2 meters for a full group of 12.

For Proxy Det add that each group member within the radius of the bomb subtracts 25% damage from the bomb thereby negating its original effect when a bunch of tightly grouped members all try to use it together as a multi-man bombing tactic.

pod88kk

"Anti zerg sets" can be worn by zergs too

Sandman929

We don't need any complicated ideas. Just make HoTs not stack and purges only target self. While we're at it, refactor all heals so that there are more target based heals and less smart heals that need to do an AoE check, that way healers need to target allies the way damage dealers need to target enemies.

Tommy_The_Gun

Cool idea OP, but... what is stopping ball groups of using this set themselves ? I mean during Cyro AOE 3 sec cool down test, those groups were running vicious death set to compensate for AOE cool downs. And imagine how it worked ? Great. They were all staking and blowing ppl up. No counterplay, other than "leave them alone"...

The only way we can have a decent counter is if we have a set or skill that will have a condition similar to this:

Purge: Cleanse yourself and your group, removing up to 3 negative effects immediately.

...^ But opposite and will work only solo or will get more powerful the less ppl are in a group.

Basically a set or skill that will "recognize" if you are in group or not and will be weaker the more players are in group.

TequilaFire

And the proc goes on. lol