Torug's Pact, Infused trait, glyph cooldowns, etc.

FrancisCrawford

When deciding whether to invest in the Infused weapon trait, the Torug's Pact set, or both, what are the basics?

My knowledge and questions start with:

• On a gold weapon, the Infused tooltip says it increases weapon enchantment effects by 30% and reduces glyph cooldowns by 50%.
• Torug's Pact is now said to increase weapon enchantment effects by 45% (Oblivion damage excepted) and decrease enchantment cooldowns by 33%.
• I don't know how those figures combine, but ZoS usually likes to take the least favorable way of doing so. If they're doing that here too, then combining the Infused trait and the Torug's Pact bonus would give you +75% to enchantment strength and -66% to cooldown.
• I used to think the generic enchantment proc rate/cooldown was 5 seconds, but other people seem to think it's 4 seconds.
• Enchantments whose effect is listed as having a 5 second duration, like Weapon Damage or Crushing, are commonly believed to have a 10 second base cooldown. Is that accurate?
• Is Hardening an example of the previous rule?

Zodiarkslayer

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

FrancisCrawford

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

FrancisCrawford

By the way -- one reason this all seems like a big deal to me is that most of the good single-bar magicka sets require tedious dungeon farming (Mad Tinkerer can be an exception, depending on your situation as to whether its cc effect is a good thing, a bad thing, or neutral).

Zodiarkslayer

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

FrancisCrawford

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

The specific build idea was a solo build using Infused/Torug's on a Hardening enchantment to spawn lots of shields. So refreshing the proc before its nominal duration of 5 seconds is likely to be beneficial. You are right of course that a cooldown below 5 seconds would be largely irrelevant on something like Weapon Power/Crusher/Weakening.

A further little nuance about the cooldown arises if the monster set is Infernal Guardian, which procs on shield creation. The expectation is that you'll get a new proc every third enchantment cooldown -- so if you're creating a shield every 4 seconds, your expected interval between Infernal Guardian procs would be 12 seconds, and so you'd be getting over 1000 tooltip DPS, AoE, ranged. That's better than Grothdarr in everything but radius, although it falls short of Maw of the Infernal on a single-target basis.

Zodiarkslayer

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

The specific build idea was a solo build using Infused/Torug's on a Hardening enchantment. So refreshing the proc before its nominal duration of 5 seconds is likely to be beneficial. You are right of course that a cooldown below 5 seconds would be largely irrelevant on something like Weapon Power/Crusher/Weakening.

Okay, if you have Torugs on both bars, than it is awesome, because you get a 6201 Damage shield (without CP in Bastion) every 3 secs, while on the backbar you get 655 Weapon Damage. Hardening enchant on the backbar would indeed be unusual.

FrancisCrawford

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

The specific build idea was a solo build using Infused/Torug's on a Hardening enchantment. So refreshing the proc before its nominal duration of 5 seconds is likely to be beneficial. You are right of course that a cooldown below 5 seconds would be largely irrelevant on something like Weapon Power/Crusher/Weakening.

Okay, if you have Torugs on both bars, than it is awesome, because you get a 6201 Damage shield (without CP in Bastion) every 3 secs, while on the backbar you get 655 Weapon Damage. Hardening enchant on the backbar would indeed be unusual.

Threads like "Best solo arena build for potatoes to avoid get mashed" (my title, not the thread-starter's ) seem to indeed have single-bar Torug's, plus Ring of the Pale Order, along with what you'd expect for a lightning heavy attack build (Noble Duelist, Maelstrom weapon). The defensive parts of the idea seem pretty independent of whether you use the heavy attack approach for offense.

I guess single-barring Noble Duelist would be even better, but then there's nothing "easy" about the exercise of farming it in the first place.

FrancisCrawford

This is one of the threads that inspired this one:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/550953/easiest-veteran-vateshraan-solo-content-build-for-every-stam-and-mag-class#latest

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

The specific build idea was a solo build using Infused/Torug's on a Hardening enchantment. So refreshing the proc before its nominal duration of 5 seconds is likely to be beneficial. You are right of course that a cooldown below 5 seconds would be largely irrelevant on something like Weapon Power/Crusher/Weakening.

Okay, if you have Torugs on both bars, than it is awesome, because you get a 6201 Damage shield (without CP in Bastion) every 3 secs, while on the backbar you get 655 Weapon Damage. Hardening enchant on the backbar would indeed be unusual.

Zodiarkslayer

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

The specific build idea was a solo build using Infused/Torug's on a Hardening enchantment. So refreshing the proc before its nominal duration of 5 seconds is likely to be beneficial. You are right of course that a cooldown below 5 seconds would be largely irrelevant on something like Weapon Power/Crusher/Weakening.

Okay, if you have Torugs on both bars, than it is awesome, because you get a 6201 Damage shield (without CP in Bastion) every 3 secs, while on the backbar you get 655 Weapon Damage. Hardening enchant on the backbar would indeed be unusual.

Threads like "Best solo arena build for potatoes to avoid get mashed" (my title, not the thread-starter's ) seem to indeed have single-bar Torug's, plus Ring of the Pale Order, along with what you'd expect for a lightning heavy attack build (Noble Duelist, Maelstrom weapon). The defensive parts of the idea seem pretty independent of whether you use the heavy attack approach for offense.

I guess single-barring Noble Duelist would be even better, but then there's nothing "easy" about the exercise of farming it in the first place.

I did the test last night and it confirmed what i speculated. The Torug's Pact effect has to be active at proc of the enchantment glyph. If not, the glyph strength is down to infused level.
I tested it with weapon enchantment on a trial dummy. Base Spell damage was 2629 and after i cast elemental blockade 3349. When i swapped to frontbar the spell damage jumped down to 3126 at the first reproc at 5 secs. Single-barring is a bad idea in general.

Now concerning that build idea. It is badly optimised, but it should work. If only he would use Torug's on the body and hardening glyph on the frontbar staff instead. So he misses out on more damage and consistent shield strenght. Besides proccing noble duelist on the back bar makes no sense at all.

Farming noble duelist isn't that hard. You get a lot of named drops and on normal the dungeon can be cleared in 10 to 15 mins. The lightning staff is the only real challenge and the bottleneck of the build. I did it myself for my main char. But i couldn't get a Lightning Staff to drop with her. So i ran it with my Tank and viola: Drop on the first run! Now i already had so many pieces collected, that i could reconstruct a precise staff for cheap. No transmutation neccessary.

I think the idea was to get people to understand that the hardening glyph can be a substantial boost to survivability on all classes and heavy attack builds have no issue with sustain. Combined they are powerful enough for soloing vet content.

But honestly, I think the author watched too many videos of HacktheMinotaur and combined several build ideas into one condensed package, that is seriously unoptimised as a result....

UrbanMonk

1. Torug effect only works when its active on the bar where you put down the skills, but if you swap to a bar woth no troug, the effect goes away. So it needs to be on both bar, UNLESS you are using it to effect the enchant on only one bar, mostly in case of PvP, not so much in PVE.
2. The cooldown reduction is a waste if the enchant is a time based effect such as crusher, shield etc. Torug works way better for damage enchants such as flame or frost.

For example on my PvP magden I use it on both front bar with infused frost enchant and I can get almost 7.5k enchant TT amd it procs on every 2nd LA.
Torug is a great set in certain combos but many other sets will outperform it in PVE settings. The buff to the damage enchant alone is not enough for overall efficiency of the build.

FrancisCrawford

To be clear -- are you guys saying that Torug's has to be active on BOTH the bar where the glyph lives and the bar that is active at the time it procs? (Obviously, this question only arises in case when those bars can be different, e.g. when it's procced by Elemental Blockade or Endless Hail.)

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

When you look at the tooltips, effect strenght of Infused plus Torug's Pact is always roughly 1.885 times the base value with a CP160 Glyph with Kuta. So not 75% but 89%. So it is safe to assume the effects are straight multiplicative.
Base*(1+infused)*(1+Torug) = Base*1,3*1,45 = 1.885

Concerning cooldowns.... Okay, now that can be a rabbit hole...

There is a 9 second global cooldown an all Buff and Debuff weapon enchantment effects. I think people just assume it is 10 sec, because heresay is easier to believe with rounded or convenient numbers. For damaging effect (Fire, Poison, etc) it is 4 seconds. The 9s was deliberatly chosen for ease of use, so that the effect can be refreshed with LA or Weapon ability at 10 seconds. Otherwise, the first cast of an ability would check for enchantment cooldown and get a "positive" at 0 secs therefore not proccing it at cast. Take server latency into account and this makes even more sense.

Now following the above rule for effect strength we get a 4.5 sec cooldown with only Infused. BUT, since AoE DoTs tick commonly only every 1 second, the effect of the glyph reprocs (refreshes) at 5 secs. It goes OFF cooldown between th 4th and the 5th tick of the ability. THAT is why everybody believes there is a 5 sec cooldown. But there isn't!

So now, with Torug's Pact active, the cooldown gets to be 3.015 secs, putting the enchantment off cooldown between the 3rd and the 4th tick, refreshing it at the 4th. It is not clear, if the 33% mentioned in the Torug's Tooltip is actually 33.3%, or 2/3. That would put the cooldown to exactly 3 secs. And I believe that would make no difference, regarding the refresh happening at the 4th tick. But I could be wrong about that.

Hope I could help and clearify some missconceptions

So Torug's Pact contributes a little more to enchantment strength than I thought, but less to enchantment cooldown. OK ...

Following up: A recently invented build suggested single-barring Torug's Pact, with Wall of Elements (or the bow equivalent) on the back bar. Torug's Pact surely will only boost the strength of the enchantment and lower its cooldown if the front bar is active when the enchantment procs. But what about the weapon trait? Which weapon's Infused trait is doing the good work?

Cooldown reduction is only relevant until you get it below enchantment duration. Anything beyond is just ineffictive. So Infused is enough. Torug is not needed for that.

Corncerning that build idea: Oh BOY! Now you can ask questions....

When an enchant procs it gets a magnitude, a duration and a cooldown attached, based on what effects are (in-) active at the time of the proc. That much I know. So, when Torugs is not active on the frontbar, the magnitude should be smaller and the cooldown longer. But honestly the thought to do that never occured to me.
I think I will check that out tonight. But I cant guarantee that.

The specific build idea was a solo build using Infused/Torug's on a Hardening enchantment. So refreshing the proc before its nominal duration of 5 seconds is likely to be beneficial. You are right of course that a cooldown below 5 seconds would be largely irrelevant on something like Weapon Power/Crusher/Weakening.

Okay, if you have Torugs on both bars, than it is awesome, because you get a 6201 Damage shield (without CP in Bastion) every 3 secs, while on the backbar you get 655 Weapon Damage. Hardening enchant on the backbar would indeed be unusual.

Threads like "Best solo arena build for potatoes to avoid get mashed" (my title, not the thread-starter's ) seem to indeed have single-bar Torug's, plus Ring of the Pale Order, along with what you'd expect for a lightning heavy attack build (Noble Duelist, Maelstrom weapon). The defensive parts of the idea seem pretty independent of whether you use the heavy attack approach for offense.

I guess single-barring Noble Duelist would be even better, but then there's nothing "easy" about the exercise of farming it in the first place.

I did the test last night and it confirmed what i speculated. The Torug's Pact effect has to be active at proc of the enchantment glyph. If not, the glyph strength is down to infused level.
I tested it with weapon enchantment on a trial dummy. Base Spell damage was 2629 and after i cast elemental blockade 3349. When i swapped to frontbar the spell damage jumped down to 3126 at the first reproc at 5 secs. Single-barring is a bad idea in general.

Now concerning that build idea. It is badly optimised, but it should work. If only he would use Torug's on the body and hardening glyph on the frontbar staff instead. So he misses out on more damage and consistent shield strenght. Besides proccing noble duelist on the back bar makes no sense at all.

Farming noble duelist isn't that hard. You get a lot of named drops and on normal the dungeon can be cleared in 10 to 15 mins. The lightning staff is the only real challenge and the bottleneck of the build. I did it myself for my main char. But i couldn't get a Lightning Staff to drop with her. So i ran it with my Tank and viola: Drop on the first run! Now i already had so many pieces collected, that i could reconstruct a precise staff for cheap. No transmutation neccessary.

I think the idea was to get people to understand that the hardening glyph can be a substantial boost to survivability on all classes and heavy attack builds have no issue with sustain. Combined they are powerful enough for soloing vet content.

But honestly, I think the author watched too many videos of HacktheMinotaur and combined several build ideas into one condensed package, that is seriously unoptimised as a result....

UrbanMonk wrote: »

1. Torug effect only works when its active on the bar where you put down the skills, but if you swap to a bar woth no troug, the effect goes away. So it needs to be on both bar, UNLESS you are using it to effect the enchant on only one bar, mostly in case of PvP, not so much in PVE.
2. The cooldown reduction is a waste if the enchant is a time based effect such as crusher, shield etc. Torug works way better for damage enchants such as flame or frost.

For example on my PvP magden I use it on both front bar with infused frost enchant and I can get almost 7.5k enchant TT amd it procs on every 2nd LA.
Torug is a great set in certain combos but many other sets will outperform it in PVE settings. The buff to the damage enchant alone is not enough for overall efficiency of the build.

FrancisCrawford

Bumped for the unanswered last question because I want to craft and/or reconstruct myself some Christmas presents. @UrbanMonk @Zodiarkslayer

FrancisCrawford

OK. I just did some PTS tests.

I double-barred Torug's, with Infused inferno staffs on both bars. I enchanted the back bar with a frost enchant, cast Wall of Elements, and the enchant procced steadily on a dummy for 5701 non-crit. (Same value on either bar, of course,)

Then with no other changes in the gear I switched to a non-set backbar set with the same enchant. Naturally, it procced for a lot less (3907). HOWEVER, when I bar swap to the front bar that still had Torug's, the non-crit figure is 5664, only slightly less than the previous 5701. (I have no theory as to where the slight difference is coming from.) There also are more total procs when I swap than when I don't (5 or 6 vs. 4 over a 10 second duration, which frankly seems like implausibly many).

So it seems that the enchantment is governed by whether or not Torug's is active at the moment of proccing. Either that, or I'm making a comically basic error in my testing.

Happy Holidays!

Zodiarkslayer

You are not mistaken. Torug's effect is a like a global variable. I bet it is checked at every proc before the damage calculation. I obviously am guessing.
I believe Damage enchants proc at 0 3 6 and 9 seconds if you have Infused. So 4 times in ten seconds is the right one. With Torug's active it could go down to less than 2 secs cooldown time. Than it would be at 0 2 4 6 8 and 10 seconds. But i am not sure about that.

Maybe combat metrics wasn't able to differentiate between backbar and frontbar procs and messed them up or together. C'est la guerre.

Imo the answer to the overall question is to not use Torugs on the weapons to have consistency.

Sry for the late and partially vague answer. I didn't get the bump. I am mobile only during the holidays.