Why the 12 man group cap in Cyrodiil is bad for the game

mielyn

I’ve been participating in Cyrodiil PVP for many years. During that time, I’ve been in several mid to high tier PVP raid guilds, and also spent plenty of time joining up with PUG groups and small teams.

Up until recently, the cap on group sizes was 24. To me, this was a perfect number. MOST organized groups that I've seen run around in Cyrodiil tend to run somewhere between 15 and 20 people. Now, with the size reduced to 12, those groups are a thing of the past. And this is having a negative impact on GUILDS.

To me, GUILDS are the CORE of any MMO. It's what makes the community. If you think zone chat is "community chat", I invite you to spend 30 minutes reading the zone chat in Cyrodiil. There is very little "community" about it. But the effect the 12 man cap has on guilds is that it is very easy for guild members to be excluded from the fun of Cyrodiil PVP. If you have 16 players who regularly raid together... now you've got either two teams of 8, or a 12 man and a 4 man. The 4 man team, trying to run around with the 12 man, is going to get butchered. Not enough healing possible in such a small group, to counter the massive damage from many 12 man group stacks you come up against. So this is very bad for guild morale, in my opinion.

Funny enough, the reported REASON for this change (as indicated by ZOS) was to improve the performance of the Cyrodiil zone. The thing is, I have NOT seen this vast performance increase from this change. Instead, I see groups being split apart. I have seen guild leaders leaving. I have seen upset among players. Gray Host is still unplayable during prime time, unless you don't mind the enormous lag and crashing. So I ask: What was the point of this change if it didn't actually fix the problem it was touted as fixing?

What I have seen is this: In ANY region within Cyrodiil, when the total number of players is LOW, it performs well. But once you get 50-100 players in a that region, it lags and performs horribly. Skill delays. Ultimate delays. Perma-lock downs. Crashes. All the same stuff that happened before this "fix".

So the 12 man cap did not alleviate the core of the problem: Too many players in a condensed space within the zone. What problem did the 12 man cap actually fix? Were people complaining about the size of "zergs"? Because the 12 man cap did NOT change that at all. Just hang out at Ales for a while on CP or Standard and you'll see what I mean. And once that region gets too many players, it lags. It doesn't have anything to do with group size. It merely has to do with the total amount of players in that space at the same time.


My suggestion is this:

1. Remove the 12 man cap and go back to 24 man as a maximum.
2. Change it so that if you are in a group of 6 or less, your heals affect your own group first, and then up to 6 other players OUTSIDE your group.
3. Groups of 7 or more have their heals consolidated to group only.
4. Figure out exactly how many people can be in a condensed region before the server starts to lag. And I recommend ZOS devs themselves playing in Cyrodiil during prime time, to get the true feel of what is happening. Go to the busy fights and try using skills. Of course still look at your server stats, but it's also important to experience the game play itself, in addition to those stats. Then get a count of how many players are there once the lag starts. Now you've got something to work with.
5. Based on #4, either upgrade the server hardware (PREFERRED) or somehow work out a way to limit the amount of players in each region. Possibly this could be done with strategically placed gates which have a "load screen" to walk through. Gates could have QUEUES just like the entire Cyrodiil zone has a queue when it is full. I know this would suck for some people, but as long as there's a way to get some extra people through who are grouped, this could potentially be OK. Make it a soft cap, and allow players through the gate who are already in group with those who have gotten into the region before them. CAUTION: If the limit is too small, it will cause HUGE upsets.

Those are my thoughts on this thing. Biggest thing I have a problem with is group size cap. Go back to 24, since it didn't make a bit of difference on the number of players participating in a hot region at the same time. And that is when the lag shows up. Every time.

Joy_Division

A few things

1. You're right this has negatively impacted guilds that use to run 15-20. My old guild is no more because of this change.
   You're also right that if 16 people want to run, the 4 are basically SOL and are better off doing something else (to the detriment of the guild.
2. I don't think you're ever getting back to 24. ZOS has made it crystal clear they are determined to reduce server calculations, and have unequivocally admitted they are prepared to change the core of the Cyrodiiil experience. They (and many players) believe 24 man groups cause a disproportionate amount of calculations
3. ZOS made this change not because of performance (they admitted the tests did not have much impact on the player experience), but because they liked the behavior changes.
4. Your probably wondering if ZOS's own tests that reduced groups to 12 and put in cooldowns did not have much impact on performance, why point #2? My guess is because ZOS sees server calculations the way Captain Ahab saw Moby ***.
5. To the previous point, there is ZERO chance of the servers ever getting upgraded. If you read Lambert's post here and in between the lines, you'll realize it's not in the cards otherwise they would not be talking about redesigning every class.
6. You're probably also wondering how exactly did ZOS determine how player behavior changed when the cooldown tests had a much more drastic effect on how we played. That is a mystery for sure, though my guess is they put the proverbial cart before the horse and are hoping for player behavioral change.
7. You are correct that these changes did nothing to make Grey Host playable.
8. To your question: "Were people complaining about the size of "zergs"?" Yes. Very loudly. No doubt another reason why ZOS made group size cap at 12. They can;t fix the lag, so they're looking to appease an angry player base.

badmojo

Softcaps on zones with group exception seems too exploitable. Leave one player at Ales and one at Ash and the other 10 just go back and forth freely despite the caps. You could even have someone afk on an alt account and only invite them to group when you need to bypass the cap.

idk

Pretty much what Joy said.

I have long thought (since the game launched) that Zos bit off more than they can chew with the overall design of the game. It seems that they have struggled all along managing this game and trying to figure out how to manage this game. To add to this conundrum, Zos has added more complexity to the game since it launched.

LarsS

I agree with most of what have been said here, even though we have no problems to run 2 raids when needed. PUG groups have big problems with the 12 limit though, on the positive side the zergs are weaker since there is no heal for them. So I would like to see the 24 limit restored, but keep the heal only in group part, since it give people a reason to group up.

I think one reson for the increased lag with time is the larger number of players on the megaserver and in cyro the proliferation of proc sets may be part of the problem.

nukk3r

If you need at least 14 people around you to do anything in Cyrodiil, you need to step up your game. If you balance out support roles in two 8 man groups they can do just fine. even 12/4 can be a good combo if you build the smaller group like a small scale with tankiness and burst damage (see tower trolls) or have some gankers in it. Small group can watch the back of a big group and provide cover fire during the defense when big group fights outside the gates.

mielyn

All very good points, guys. Joy, I agree with you on the 12 man remaining permanent. But I still hold my ground that they should undo that change. I do not feel that it actually made things better, or more enjoyable for the majority of Cyrodiil PVPers. I can only hope ZOS will listen to the community and look at how they are changing the game to its detriment.

Regarding exploiting my idea of putting cap limits on "regions" within Cyrodiil, I agree. My idea was given very loosely. Obviously exploits will have to be considered if something like this was to happen.

As for behavioral changes to the "players" that ZOS is "enforcing" on us... I say, why not add some 12 man BGs for people who want this style of play? Cyrodiil is a HUGE zone. HUGE. One of the biggest in the entire game, honestly. (Maybe the biggest, as far as meters from one end to the other without zoning.) It should be able to withstand groups of up to 24 easily. There is just so much space!

Lastly, comment to nukk3r: True, you could easily say that people need to step up their game. But that is a bit unfair, considering that the game was sold from the get go, with a 24 man cap in this particular zone. People have adapted to this playstyle. SOME people enjoy playing in smaller groups, or even solo. And that's the beauty of the zone-- people can do anything they want. At least they used to be able to. Now it's limited to small man or solo only. And even solo players got pushed back on one of their favorite playstyles by not being allowed to heal anyone except themselves. But truly, the actual PURPOSE of my post has nothing to do with player skill. It has to do with community and guilds and the fate of this game. And by harming guilds with these changes, it comes around and harms the core of the game.

Now, I do realize that PVP is by far the SMALLEST percentage of the player base in this game. PVE is where most people spend their time. So it's sad to me, but understandable, that the focus will likely not be on enhancing PVP, but rather catering to the whims of the PVE folks who occasionally PVP. That's my viewpoint on what's happening right now.

Oh well. This game has had a good run. I expect it'll still be doing fairly well for a few more years. But with new competition coming in 2021, you never know. This is potentially a crucial time for ZOS to get things right and keep the money coming in from this game, or dooming themselves to a failing MMO.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

12m groups and group only healing was mainly a suggestion from the streamer discord and wider community around it, If you remember ZOS never planned to test reduced group sizes or group only heals but they add it after the feedback from the test announcements.

This is why it has been implemented and not really any other reason. The tests had no impact on whether this was implemented its purely a perception based change.

nukk3r

mielyn wrote: »

All very good points, guys. Joy, I agree with you on the 12 man remaining permanent. But I still hold my ground that they should undo that change. I do not feel that it actually made things better, or more enjoyable for the majority of Cyrodiil PVPers. I can only hope ZOS will listen to the community and look at how they are changing the game to its detriment.

Regarding exploiting my idea of putting cap limits on "regions" within Cyrodiil, I agree. My idea was given very loosely. Obviously exploits will have to be considered if something like this was to happen.

As for behavioral changes to the "players" that ZOS is "enforcing" on us... I say, why not add some 12 man BGs for people who want this style of play? Cyrodiil is a HUGE zone. HUGE. One of the biggest in the entire game, honestly. (Maybe the biggest, as far as meters from one end to the other without zoning.) It should be able to withstand groups of up to 24 easily. There is just so much space!

Lastly, comment to nukk3r: True, you could easily say that people need to step up their game. But that is a bit unfair, considering that the game was sold from the get go, with a 24 man cap in this particular zone. People have adapted to this playstyle. SOME people enjoy playing in smaller groups, or even solo. And that's the beauty of the zone-- people can do anything they want. At least they used to be able to. Now it's limited to small man or solo only. And even solo players got pushed back on one of their favorite playstyles by not being allowed to heal anyone except themselves. But truly, the actual PURPOSE of my post has nothing to do with player skill. It has to do with community and guilds and the fate of this game. And by harming guilds with these changes, it comes around and harms the core of the game.

Now, I do realize that PVP is by far the SMALLEST percentage of the player base in this game. PVE is where most people spend their time. So it's sad to me, but understandable, that the focus will likely not be on enhancing PVP, but rather catering to the whims of the PVE folks who occasionally PVP. That's my viewpoint on what's happening right now.

Oh well. This game has had a good run. I expect it'll still be doing fairly well for a few more years. But with new competition coming in 2021, you never know. This is potentially a crucial time for ZOS to get things right and keep the money coming in from this game, or dooming themselves to a failing MMO.

ESO is a long way from the game it was 6 years ago. Changes happen an this is only one of many. All I'm saying is there's always a way to adapt. I really want to see more skilled players in Cyrodiil, maybe this will encourage people to play smarter.

Aerenthir

Restriction to 12 man group didn't do anything about lag. Lag is worse than before as with each poor excuse of "performance patch" along with getting a bonus of crashes.

So having that restriction is useless and illogical to have. Unfortunately from the seen so far, it doesn't seem like Zos are able to admit openly how bad the state of the performance is and how worse it gets each patch, because it's a bad PR for them.

Few months ago they were claiming it's due to the insanely high population due to Covid, but now according to Steam charts the population dropped significantly compared to few months ago, yet the lag is worse.

They will always give excuses. People will always complain and "hope" for the magical bunny called fix that Zos will pull out of their hat eventually.

Only fix for this thing would be for them to move all the calculation to Client side as it were before, and hire a third party to handle the security against cheaters. Again it won't ever happen.

Joy_Division

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

12m groups and group only healing was mainly a suggestion from the streamer discord and wider community around it, If you remember ZOS never planned to test reduced group sizes or group only heals but they add it after the feedback from the test announcements.

This is why it has been implemented and not really any other reason. The tests had no impact on whether this was implemented its purely a perception based change.

Figures. Streamers have always had disproportionate influence.

Soul_Demon

Joy_Division wrote: »

A few things

1. You're right this has negatively impacted guilds that use to run 15-20. My old guild is no more because of this change.
   You're also right that if 16 people want to run, the 4 are basically SOL and are better off doing something else (to the detriment of the guild.
2. I don't think you're ever getting back to 24. ZOS has made it crystal clear they are determined to reduce server calculations, and have unequivocally admitted they are prepared to change the core of the Cyrodiiil experience. They (and many players) believe 24 man groups cause a disproportionate amount of calculations
3. ZOS made this change not because of performance (they admitted the tests did not have much impact on the player experience), but because they liked the behavior changes.
4. Your probably wondering if ZOS's own tests that reduced groups to 12 and put in cooldowns did not have much impact on performance, why point #2? My guess is because ZOS sees server calculations the way Captain Ahab saw Moby ***.
5. To the previous point, there is ZERO chance of the servers ever getting upgraded. If you read Lambert's post here and in between the lines, you'll realize it's not in the cards otherwise they would not be talking about redesigning every class.
   
6. You're probably also wondering how exactly did ZOS determine how player behavior changed when the cooldown tests had a much more drastic effect on how we played. That is a mystery for sure, though my guess is they put the proverbial cart before the horse and are hoping for player behavioral change.
7. You are correct that these changes did nothing to make Grey Host playable.
8. To your question: "Were people complaining about the size of "zergs"?" Yes. Very loudly. No doubt another reason why ZOS made group size cap at 12. They can;t fix the lag, so they're looking to appease an angry player base.

Edit for ref-"[*] You're probably also wondering how exactly did ZOS determine how player behavior changed when the cooldown tests had a much more drastic effect on how we played. That is a mystery for sure, though my guess is they put the proverbial cart before the horse and are hoping for player behavioral change."

I think the portion bolded above may be much worse than you are seeing it.....with PvP pulling in somewhere around 1% of total gaming revenue, I am starting to believe they are purposely 'killing off' cyro- No players there, they get to close it out and someone can do all the functions there as side job along with BG's and the rest can focus on the new game and PvE.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

LarsS wrote: »

I agree with most of what have been said here, even though we have no problems to run 2 raids when needed. PUG groups have big problems with the 12 limit though, on the positive side the zergs are weaker since there is no heal for them. So I would like to see the 24 limit restored, but keep the heal only in group part, since it give people a reason to group up.

I think one reson for the increased lag with time is the larger number of players on the megaserver and in cyro the proliferation of proc sets may be part of the problem.

I do not agree about this part regarding to organized group, at least not fully. Ball groups always had to think of how to survive and for that reason assumption very easily is to bring own heals and do not rely on anyone else (especially since they often operate separately from the rest of the alliance). With that being said the only "nerf" here would be in terms of numbers of players they can bring - something they anyway often did not hit 24 cap anyway with.

As for the rest I do agree with it. The biggest issue players right now have is not actually about heals nerf but about bringing both changes together.

And i do agree with proc sets. Something that has been pointed out already by several people on this forum on number of occasions - proc sets and stacking multiple effects (be if heals or dots or whatever).

GrimTheReaper45

I really hate the Idea of 12 man groups 2 reasons:

1) Cyro is nearly the only place you can find an actual community in this game. In zone or guild there's always "Anyone Lfg" then you join the group and there's players actually talking and hanging out. You go to any other kind of place or guild in this game and its always the same 8 people who know eachother talking and everyone else only says "wtb/wts blank" or "Lf 10 dps for nxyz +10" then you join the group and everyones off mic for the entire run. Some of us have been playing with the same 20 people everyday since near launch, its why were still here. Because we enjoy running with those players, bob and jim will me missed when they get off of work and group is full. Whichever 8 of our friends or more because we pick up randoms come in last are just screwed. Or you run 2 groups in guild chat and then noone is talking to the randoms. That sucks for the community as a whole, you want non regulars to become friends and play together. Randomly joining a group is how Ive met everyone I play with and why Ive played eso so long.


2) Its just not what I want from cyro. When I go into cyro its because I want my big group to smash up against another big group and one of us to hold a keep at the end. The most fun I have in cyro is when someone in zone is like "johns zerg at roe" then we go there and have a massive fight against this other big group working together and coordinating. Rival guild has one last emp keep and every group in cyrodil is there and it doesnt matter how many times half your group blue screens were all trying to hold it down until they get back and there all racing to get back. If I wanted to go play small scale battles or 1vX then i would go play bgs, I dont its not my thing. I dont care how many people I kill or how much ap I get, I play in cyro solely because its fun gameplay to do your thing that helps out this massive group and at the end someone wins.


24 is a good number for groups and the only change that people are asking for is better performance but not at the cost of gameplay.

mielyn

Here's an all too common scenario now with the 12 man cap:

The night begins with more than 12 players. Let's say you start out with a total of 20. So now you've got either two 10 man groups, or a 12 and an 8. Seems fine on paper, right? It's doable.

Ok, one hour into the raid night, 2 people from group 2 have to go to bed. But Group 2 composition was organized based on 10. So now you're hustling in the middle of battle to change the composition to something that works. But you get by. Twenty minutes later, three people crash. Two from group 1. One from group 2. Now it's getting dicey. Those three get back in, and now two more people have to go to bed. Now you're at a total of 16. Now you start to question-- should you go with two eight man groups, or a ten and six? Again, compositions are a huge factor here.

As the night goes on, the numbers slowly dwindle down. I'm sure others have experienced similar things. By the time you get down to 14 players raiding... in the old system, this would have been totally fine. And truly it was. We could adjust a 20 down to 14 easily.

But now, with two groups no matter what, since you're still over the 12 cap, you could go 7 and 7.. but with a 12 man composition, switching to 7 suddenly is a HUGE deal. And very difficult to manage in the MIDDLE of a raid. Sure, if you had started the night with 7, and all 7 stay until the end of the raid, you could pick different kinds of battles to accomodate only 7 people. But a two group setup chooses different kinds of fight. (And these are the kinds of BIG fights that Cyrodiil SHOULD be able to throw at you... again, it is a HUGE zone. It NEEDS huge fights. Not small little skirmishes.)

Anyway, so I have seen this happen repeatedly since the 12 man cap was implemented. And it's sad, because it is quite literally tearing the community apart.

Last night, case in point, Cyrodiil was a dead, barren waste. Except Gray Host, which is a lag festival. But historically, on a FRIDAY night at prime time, ALL three campaigns (not counting under 50) were close to, or pop-locked. The numbers are waning. Not a good sign.

ZOS, please undo this change. Keep the group only heals if you must (at least for groups above 6). But let us group with all of our friends again by increasing the cap back to a full 24 in Cyrodiil.

Leslik

Since the group size restriction, I have noticed several players who I will not name who have been very vocal on these forums about restricting groups size or nerfing ball groups and generally trying to ask for changes that will help their small scale groups to the detriment of everyone else running with the very ball groups they have argued against. You know who you are

Leslik

As for the op. I hear where you are coming from but the deed has been done. The chances of a reversal are slim to none and I very much regret the number of friends I've played with for a long time gradually vanishing. The social aspect of playing in big groups has been what's kept me playing since the beginning. Without it there is one less reason to stay

Kwoung

nukk3r wrote: »

All I'm saying is there's always a way to adapt. I really want to see more skilled players in Cyrodiil, maybe this will encourage people to play smarter.

Probably not. I want my guild to all be able to hit 80K+ DPS on trials, but that isn't happening either, everyone still has fun doing them though and we get great loot, just like we do in Cyrodiil. Becoming an "awesome" PVPer who can 1vX is pretty low on most peoples list of things to achieve, earning AP and simply having fun in Cyrodiil though... rates much higher, at least among the folks I know in the PVP & PVX guilds I have been in. Yeah, we try to get better, but since PVP is only a part of the game, the time, gold & effort spent on it... is what it is.

People get as good as they can with the effort they are willing to put in and their personal limitations. In many cases, that means a decent build and being good enough to not get one shot, being able to take some folks down, and getting killed a lot by others. By PVP elitist standards, I suck. But I have 2 chars in the top 25 of the current campaign and can afford anything I want from the PVP merchants and the Golden, so in my mind, I am killing it.

Kwoung

Oh, as for the point of this thread, I totally dislike the 12 man limit. We are a PVX guild and bring many new players to Cyrodiil on our events who had trepidations about PVP (see the thousands of threads from PVEers), quite a few of which decided they like it and continue to come out though. Unfortunately now, we do not have room for everyone, so they just don't come out to play anymore. Way to go excluding people who want to try it, but now can't fit in.

Yesterday, we had extra room in group, so we joined a few PUG's to our group. But then we ended up having to boot them because some more guildies wanted in, I felt really bad about it, but the guild comes first.

ShortTripToHell

Myself I am guildmaster of an AD guild Gray Host. With the state of the game and just before the testing I had 16ish people playing every night. Now with this change we have 12. It really hurts to me saying to a friend in the guild "sorry there is no room for you".

I have seen people delete all of their characters and uninstall but they stay in discord with me and we keep in touch. They are waiting for me playing the next MMO and make a guild there. If not for the global thing ( you know what I talk about ) maybe a new MMO would have been released and my guild would have reborn there.

I would love for them to revert the 12 man cap. They won't cause it's pvp and pvp has always been the leftover but anyway.
From me to all guildmasters, solo players, ballgroups, however you play. I love fighting you guys or along if you are yellow but the game is broken. We keep em going until the next game and hope to fight each other there!

West93

I am usually playing around from duo to maybe 8 player maximum if I am in group so this 12 man group completely fine for me and plays to my advantage.

However stacking HOT'S is very strong in eso. Such change just buffed ballgroups way too much.

Fengrush had video explaining same thing, healing stacking is too strong such as rapid regen, purge, running multiple earthgores etc.

No, I am not his fanboy and I don't agree with everything he says, but he has made strong and logical arguments about this topic.

If ZOS could just adjust healing stacking in groups it would be perfect.

Kwoung

West93 wrote: »

Fengrush had video explaining same thing, healing stacking is too strong such as rapid regen, purge, running multiple earthgores etc.

It's been a pretty well know fact for a long time, Radiating Regen being the worst offender, never mind the lag it causes, trying to damage someone through 8 stacks of it is neigh impossible. I even bombed a ball group with a full on mag build and it literally didn't put a scratch in them, they just kept on spamming and moving around the keep.

Oddly, making RR not stack was the only thing they didn't try during their testing, they left it alone while they messed with every other heal... and ultimately killed off solo healers instead fixing the one thing most of us strongly believe is the issue.

ShortTripToHell

Guys make no mistake the 12 cap and especially the cross healing disabling is a buff for ball groups. However they are very few players to the main bulk which is the zerg.

Now the zerg is really suffering with this change. I still believe that the 12 cap is stupid for guilds and zone leaders. I know there are guilds that play with 5 - 6 -7 I dunno but most run full 24 or a little less. The zone leaders are not having fun, they just can't keep up. I know a lot that quit, Guilds and zone leaders. IMO that is just sad for the game.

Complaining that heal stacking is a problem, yes it is for killing the zerg. However saying that it causes lots of lagg is not true. The lagg around ball groups comes from the instant/ timed damage. As a programmer myself I know this is a fact. I understand that people don't like heal stacking inside a ballgroup but don't put it "it causes lagg so get rid of it", that is not how it should work.

If ZOS ever believes the heal stacking is really overpowered and they make it single instance. ( 1 radiating per person ) Than they should also do that for debuffs EG poison / poison injection / DOT from oil, ETC. If they ever do that maaaannn balls will even have a bigger field day. Be carefull what you wish for.

Anyway back to the main topic. Some guilds are under very stress or they revamp to PVE. This is just not right guys. Everyone who likes to PVP can't say "yey guilds / zone groups are dying".

Zer0_CooL

I wouldn't complain about the 12 player group limit, and even accept the heal restrictions with gritted teeth. BUT NOT EVEN NOW YOUR BLODDY GAME WORKS PROPPERLY.


Ignoring all the bugs like the one that causes a crash when joining a group since they can be fixed in foreseeable time. There's still hell of a lag and skills still aint firing (no, i don't have german internetconnection). Just yesterday i found myself in the middle of a bloddy zerg not able to use my ultimate nor any skill.

Its just pointless...

ShortTripToHell

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

I wouldn't complain about the 12 player group limit, and even accept the heal restrictions with gritted teeth. BUT NOT EVEN NOW YOUR BLODDY GAME WORKS PROPPERLY.


Ignoring all the bugs like the one that causes a crash when joining a group since they can be fixed in foreseeable time. There's still hell of a lag and skills still aint firing (no, i don't have german internetconnection). Just yesterday i found myself in the middle of a bloddy zerg not able to use my ultimate nor any skill.

Its just pointless...

I agree with you completly, you have my full support. But ZOS is like this is the magic that fixes all. It does *** for the game, I crash you crash we all crash. The thing that grinds my gears about this is that they force a change that a lot of people hate and make people quit and does ***. Just revert the change and say "hey sorry not the result we wanted. We will keep analyzing and looking for a solution".

Zer0_CooL

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

I agree with you completly, you have my full support. But ZOS is like this is the magic that fixes all. It does *** for the game, I crash you crash we all crash. The thing that grinds my gears about this is that they force a change that a lot of people hate and make people quit and does ***. Just revert the change and say "hey sorry not the result we wanted. We will keep analyzing and looking for a solution".

Well they tested it for weeks. The change shouldn't have make it to live in first place.

ShortTripToHell

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

ShortTripToHell wrote: »

I agree with you completly, you have my full support. But ZOS is like this is the magic that fixes all. It does *** for the game, I crash you crash we all crash. The thing that grinds my gears about this is that they force a change that a lot of people hate and make people quit and does ***. Just revert the change and say "hey sorry not the result we wanted. We will keep analyzing and looking for a solution".

Well they tested it for weeks. The change shouldn't have make it to live in first place.

I believe they - or have false data - or have data that they misunderstand. I know a lot of people that didn't play during the tests. I for sure didn't raid with my guild. If it is the same amount of people it must be PVE'ers for the double AP. Of course they can all are welcome but they don't put stain on the server like I do.

Sandman929

I'm hoping, probably in vain, that the group only healing is a patch until healing can be reworked to include more targeted heals. Smart heal calculations were a problem because nearly every single heal in the game depends on the server to "smart" find a target.

Kartalin

I think it would be great if Regeneration functioned the same way as vigor. One self heal and one AOE, and then limit the number of times it could stack to like 2 (limit vigor as well if not already). Good groups will adjust but it might make the lag more bearable at least.

nk125x

LarsS wrote: »

I agree with most of what have been said here, even though we have no problems to run 2 raids when needed. PUG groups have big problems with the 12 limit though, on the positive side the zergs are weaker since there is no heal for them. So I would like to see the 24 limit restored, but keep the heal only in group part, since it give people a reason to group up.

I think one reson for the increased lag with time is the larger number of players on the megaserver and in cyro the proliferation of proc sets may be part of the problem.

This

Greasytengu

nk125x wrote: »

LarsS wrote: »

I agree with most of what have been said here, even though we have no problems to run 2 raids when needed. PUG groups have big problems with the 12 limit though, on the positive side the zergs are weaker since there is no heal for them. So I would like to see the 24 limit restored, but keep the heal only in group part, since it give people a reason to group up.

I think one reson for the increased lag with time is the larger number of players on the megaserver and in cyro the proliferation of proc sets may be part of the problem.

This

Other than adding new classes, abilities have basically stayed the same for years.

We get new proc sets with every quarter now, and every quarter the performance is a little worse.

Should ZOS do more testing, they should include one that removes most procs from cyro, like maybe a generic stat increase for a 5 piece set, or restricting sets from going past 4 piece bonuses. I would be curious to see the results from that test.