Fix Defiles - the reduction is clearly a mistake

ivramirez

The reduction of the major and minor defiles debuff is simply a mistake.
The healing is not reduced in any meaningful way by the defiles right now and that is taking into consideration the reduction in healing.

Before the defiles changes you had a "window" (very brief period) of a moderate reduction in healing but now is just meaningless. basically, healers can overheal damage even with the defiles on.

This modification has to be changed back to at least what it was before. There is no counter to the healing action, which the defile is supposed to be.

Defile reduction is a mistake, needs to be fixe

Urzigurumash

While I don't disagree (given my limited experience in this new patch), from a certain POV this new Cowardice (and the Weakening enchant) are a reduction of Healing Done for Mag/Stam scaled heals. We could also use a source of Major Mangle, or maybe more sources of Minor Mangle besides Pulsar, to help counter Health scaled heals.

idk

Healing in Cyrodiil has been reduced in a very meaningful way as we now have fewer sources of healing.

Wing

necro spotted

ivramirez

it does not take more than one week of playing to spot the problems with the BG pvp. it is not possible that the role of healer is at the same time the role of the tanker. you can heal, you can tank all at the same time. all this using you one skill that's it.

Recapitated

Defile isn't the solution because healing is not the root of the problem with the current meta. Punishing high-health builds just makes the proc damage they're meant to survive even stronger. Instead you'll see more crimson twilight and more movement speed.

Recapitated

Let me walk that back, I'm thinking mostly of a BG of solo players which is probably not the context you have in mind OP

ivramirez

Recapitated wrote: »

Let me walk that back, I'm thinking mostly of a BG of solo players which is probably not the context you have in mind OP

I think you are right, there are many problems but healing is clearly one. the role of the healer is not to survive the damage of 4 DPS, continue to heal himself and the rest of the team. it happens in almost every match. Currently as of 11/18/2020 there is no counter to healing.

ImSoPro

ivramirez wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Let me walk that back, I'm thinking mostly of a BG of solo players which is probably not the context you have in mind OP

I think you are right, there are many problems but healing is clearly one. the role of the healer is not to survive the damage of 4 DPS, continue to heal himself and the rest of the team. it happens in almost every match. Currently as of 11/18/2020 there is no counter to healing.

CC, burst down. That’s it. If they give back defile then people will be on here saying “well since you reverted defile now heals are underpowered” we just gotta roll with it because ZOS since I’ve been playing has shown no signs of actually taking into consideration the things the community says anyway. Other games I play the devs are active amongst the community on different platforms. ZOS is on the opposite end of the spectrum, the forum mods barely reply unless they’re here to tell you about rules you violated.

Firstmep

idk wrote: »

Healing in Cyrodiil has been reduced in a very meaningful way as we now have fewer sources of healing.

This is only true if you zerg/zergsurf.
If you already play solo, or in an actual group then healing is still fine.

maxjapank

Health based heals need a reduction.

Wing

maxjapank wrote: »

Health based heals need a reduction.

mmmm, only arctic wind really, if the heal over time of it was reduced, and the fact that it can heal others too, makes dealing with two wardens unbearable as they just overlap already decent heals, stacked on top of things like leeching vines and vigor. its just too much passive healing.

honestly its just HoT's period. if the only heal over time effects were ground placed this would a non issue

katorga

All of the major/minors that were nerfed, were nerf too far. They are not even meaningful at this point. And the changes created imbalances in other areas.

Oh well.

Sanctum74

Defiles are finally in a good spot. They are there to assist your burst not carry it.

Vizirith

Defiles are way too prevalent, you can't balance healing while factoring that in because then if you don't have mending or vitality you stand much less pf a chance. 100% uptime on minor/major defile when nobody outside of templars can have even 100% uptime on minor mending is absurd.

Pre-Markarth: With both major and minor defile you have .55 healing received. That's 22% of the healing without battlespirit.

With 77 points into the befoul passive (increasing efficacy of healing reduction abilities) you get a 33.08% increase. With both major and minor defile you'd have .4 healing received. That's 16% of the healing without battlespirit.

That is quite potent against a class without great healing.

LIVE: With both defiles .76 healing received. With both defiles and 33% befoul cp: .68 healing received.

For defiles to be reverted all the healing buffs need to be reverted also, and the sources of defiles either need cost increases or pulled off the main stay skills that use them ie lethal arrow and blastbones. For major mending on a stamdk to be kept up via fragmented shield you need to have over 1620 mag regen and use it on a useless skill itself besides the skill tree passives.

Remember when they nerfed all the 100% uptime on major defile sets? Now they have 100% uptime on defile attached to a aoe burst skill. Healing hasn't increased over time quite as much as defiles have gotten more prevalent. Maybe if they made frag shield major mending have double the duration. Give templars back major mending instead of minor. Then we'd be approaching fair. Don't forget that defiles are inherently stronger than mending.

Alchimiste1

no

ivramirez

Vizirith wrote: »

Defiles are way too prevalent, you can't balance healing while factoring that in because then if you don't have mending or vitality you stand much less pf a chance. 100% uptime on minor/major defile when nobody outside of templars can have even 100% uptime on minor mending is absurd.

Pre-Markarth: With both major and minor defile you have .55 healing received. That's 22% of the healing without battlespirit.

With 77 points into the befoul passive (increasing efficacy of healing reduction abilities) you get a 33.08% increase. With both major and minor defile you'd have .4 healing received. That's 16% of the healing without battlespirit.

That is quite potent against a class without great healing.

LIVE: With both defiles .76 healing received. With both defiles and 33% befoul cp: .68 healing received.

For defiles to be reverted all the healing buffs need to be reverted also, and the sources of defiles either need cost increases or pulled off the main stay skills that use them ie lethal arrow and blastbones. For major mending on a stamdk to be kept up via fragmented shield you need to have over 1620 mag regen and use it on a useless skill itself besides the skill tree passives.

Remember when they nerfed all the 100% uptime on major defile sets? Now they have 100% uptime on defile attached to a aoe burst skill. Healing hasn't increased over time quite as much as defiles have gotten more prevalent. Maybe if they made frag shield major mending have double the duration. Give templars back major mending instead of minor. Then we'd be approaching fair. Don't forget that defiles are inherently stronger than mending.

I'm sorry my friend but I think you are wrong with this point of view. No one ever complained about defiles being OP or powerful. Moreover, there was not major interest on defiles by vast majority of people.

Take a look to this event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3WtQkT3ZU

Ariades_swe

The major defile 16 percent healing reduction after the nerf is pretty weak considering the changes to battle spirit gave everyone 10 percent extra healing this patch.
So against the classes without access to major mending major defile is now only lowering their healing by 6 percent compared to their healing last patch.

Vizirith

ivramirez wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Defiles are way too prevalent, you can't balance healing while factoring that in because then if you don't have mending or vitality you stand much less pf a chance. 100% uptime on minor/major defile when nobody outside of templars can have even 100% uptime on minor mending is absurd.

Pre-Markarth: With both major and minor defile you have .55 healing received. That's 22% of the healing without battlespirit.

With 77 points into the befoul passive (increasing efficacy of healing reduction abilities) you get a 33.08% increase. With both major and minor defile you'd have .4 healing received. That's 16% of the healing without battlespirit.

That is quite potent against a class without great healing.

LIVE: With both defiles .76 healing received. With both defiles and 33% befoul cp: .68 healing received.

For defiles to be reverted all the healing buffs need to be reverted also, and the sources of defiles either need cost increases or pulled off the main stay skills that use them ie lethal arrow and blastbones. For major mending on a stamdk to be kept up via fragmented shield you need to have over 1620 mag regen and use it on a useless skill itself besides the skill tree passives.

Remember when they nerfed all the 100% uptime on major defile sets? Now they have 100% uptime on defile attached to a aoe burst skill. Healing hasn't increased over time quite as much as defiles have gotten more prevalent. Maybe if they made frag shield major mending have double the duration. Give templars back major mending instead of minor. Then we'd be approaching fair. Don't forget that defiles are inherently stronger than mending.

I'm sorry my friend but I think you are wrong with this point of view. No one ever complained about defiles being OP or powerful. Moreover, there was not major interest on defiles by vast majority of people.

Take a look to this event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3WtQkT3ZU

and is he getting healing buffs? Minor mending and that's it. Is he being defiled? Sure doesn't look like it. Sure he's a tank, necro tanks in particular are everywhere. Defiles are now less potent against builds with great healing, the issue is that they were very potent to classes without good healing.

PRE-MARKARTH:
A heavy armor, stamDK using GDB (Major Mending + Minor Vitality + 12% healing received DK passive + 8% healing received Heavy Armor passive) would amount to 160% self healing, the highest in the game. When tagged with just minor and major defile it comes to 88% self healing, and that'd only be if you keep Frag Shield up 100% of the time which you'd need 1620 mag recovery to do... on a StamDK, while using no other magicka abilities like volatile armor, with volatile armor it'd be 1890 mag recovery...which I doubt any StamDK would run

*With both defiles applied and counting class passives/skills for self healing (no-cp into befoul or healing cp):
*Not counting full resto heavy attacks granting major mending as uptime would be quite low
*Not counting Combat Medic passive (20% healing done when near a keep) as how exactly do you balance around that
*Not using Heavy Armor

MagDK (LA,noGDB): 62% self healing
Templar: 59% (presuming 100% uptime on minor mending passive)
Warden: 69% (presuming 1 green balance skill on a bar and 100% uptime on major mending (healing an ally under 40% grants major mending for 3 secs)
Nightblade: 57% (presuming 1 siphoning skill on the bar)
Necromancer: 61% (presuming 1 bone tyrant skill on the bar= 2% healing received, negative effect on you= 8% healing done)
Sorcerer: 55% no healing passives

Vizirith

Ariades_swe wrote: »

The major defile 16 percent healing reduction after the nerf is pretty weak considering the changes to battle spirit gave everyone 10 percent extra healing this patch.
So against the classes without access to major mending major defile is now only lowering their healing by 6 percent compared to their healing last patch.

Sure but the issue is that the Battlespirit healing reduction should not have anything to do with defiles. When you say 6% lowered healing that would only apply to classes that are fighting a stamcro and you yourself get 10% more. When I'm on my stamsorc I can't get major defile unless I run a set and therefore my opponents now have 10% more healing than last patch but so do I. Builds that had great healing would be a tough fight unless the opponent had defiles. But either builds played very well against builds/classes that had neither. The class that can overcome defiles the best are ironically necros with their purge.

Expert

Nerf to Defile was a good choice, next in line is nerfing those health scaling based heals such as Artic Blast and Werewolf howl heal.

o ye and nuke all those proc sets and malacath ring while you're at it

Ariades_swe

Vizirith wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

The major defile 16 percent healing reduction after the nerf is pretty weak considering the changes to battle spirit gave everyone 10 percent extra healing this patch.
So against the classes without access to major mending major defile is now only lowering their healing by 6 percent compared to their healing last patch.

Sure but the issue is that the Battlespirit healing reduction should not have anything to do with defiles. When you say 6% lowered healing that would only apply to classes that are fighting a stamcro and you yourself get 10% more. When I'm on my stamsorc I can't get major defile unless I run a set and therefore my opponents now have 10% more healing than last patch but so do I. Builds that had great healing would be a tough fight unless the opponent had defiles. But either builds played very well against builds/classes that had neither. The class that can overcome defiles the best are ironically necros with their purge.

So you're saying that defile is a problem for you still now after it got lowered to16 percent and you got a 10 percent heal buff?


Not many necros would run the purge solely to deal with defile the way defile works now, especially since you'd lose out on almost 10 percent extra healing if you purge yourself of all negative effects on top of the health cost.

I'd say the nerf to major defile was needed but I don't agree with it needing more nerfs.

relentless_turnip

I think healing is in a good place this patch.
Reducing major defile has stopped people moaning about Necros anywhere near as much.

I still find it easy to burst people down, but am able to recover when in trouble as well.
Wardens are very strong this patch, but that is because of the health based heals, their ease in stacking health and the power of proc sets enables you to stack health and not lose anything. If proc sets are adjusted, people will stack less health, health based heals will be less effective and everyone will die under enough pressure.

I believe the buff changes have been a good thing.

Vizirith

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

The major defile 16 percent healing reduction after the nerf is pretty weak considering the changes to battle spirit gave everyone 10 percent extra healing this patch.
So against the classes without access to major mending major defile is now only lowering their healing by 6 percent compared to their healing last patch.

Sure but the issue is that the Battlespirit healing reduction should not have anything to do with defiles. When you say 6% lowered healing that would only apply to classes that are fighting a stamcro and you yourself get 10% more. When I'm on my stamsorc I can't get major defile unless I run a set and therefore my opponents now have 10% more healing than last patch but so do I. Builds that had great healing would be a tough fight unless the opponent had defiles. But either builds played very well against builds/classes that had neither. The class that can overcome defiles the best are ironically necros with their purge.

So you're saying that defile is a problem for you still now after it got lowered to16 percent and you got a 10 percent heal buff?


Not many necros would run the purge solely to deal with defile the way defile works now, especially since you'd lose out on almost 10 percent extra healing if you purge yourself of all negative effects on top of the health cost.

I'd say the nerf to major defile was needed but I don't agree with it needing more nerfs.

No I think defiles are fine right now, they were overpowered coupled with how little sacrifice it took to run them. This was in response to your comment saying "The major defile 16 percent healing reduction after the nerf is pretty weak considering the changes to battle spirit gave everyone 10 percent extra healing this patch."

Joy_Division

ivramirez wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

Defiles are way too prevalent, you can't balance healing while factoring that in because then if you don't have mending or vitality you stand much less pf a chance. 100% uptime on minor/major defile when nobody outside of templars can have even 100% uptime on minor mending is absurd.

Pre-Markarth: With both major and minor defile you have .55 healing received. That's 22% of the healing without battlespirit.

With 77 points into the befoul passive (increasing efficacy of healing reduction abilities) you get a 33.08% increase. With both major and minor defile you'd have .4 healing received. That's 16% of the healing without battlespirit.

That is quite potent against a class without great healing.

LIVE: With both defiles .76 healing received. With both defiles and 33% befoul cp: .68 healing received.

For defiles to be reverted all the healing buffs need to be reverted also, and the sources of defiles either need cost increases or pulled off the main stay skills that use them ie lethal arrow and blastbones. For major mending on a stamdk to be kept up via fragmented shield you need to have over 1620 mag regen and use it on a useless skill itself besides the skill tree passives.

Remember when they nerfed all the 100% uptime on major defile sets? Now they have 100% uptime on defile attached to a aoe burst skill. Healing hasn't increased over time quite as much as defiles have gotten more prevalent. Maybe if they made frag shield major mending have double the duration. Give templars back major mending instead of minor. Then we'd be approaching fair. Don't forget that defiles are inherently stronger than mending.

I'm sorry my friend but I think you are wrong with this point of view. No one ever complained about defiles being OP or powerful. Moreover, there was not major interest on defiles by vast majority of people.

Take a look to this event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra3WtQkT3ZU

As a class rep for a year, I can tell you the second most common pain point that was communicated to me about PvP was defiles being too strong (after "ball groups").

Dunning_Kruger

ivramirez wrote: »

I'm sorry my friend but I think you are wrong with this point of view. No one ever complained about defiles being OP or powerful. Moreover, there was not major interest on defiles by vast majority of people.

Absolutely cooked logic. Major defile was one of the most complained about debuffs in the games existence. Duroks bane was so busted due to its major defile spam; reverb bash had major defile moved off the skill; incap use to major defile at 70 ult and was a huge pain point. People exclusively would use rev bash for the major defile because you guessed it; the debuff is powerful. But I understand your Dunning Kruger levels are too high to reach.

TheBonesXXX

Defile is just meant to be an antithesis to Major Mending, nothing more. If it's not the antithesis of Major Mending then it doesn't need to be in the game. It's not meant to neutralize resource management.

And I run defileblade and defilecro exclusively when playing those classes.

They're already limiting healing, which is good. You limit it too much and the TTK will be too high, which is why snipe stacking got fixed.

These forums really need to pay attention to cause and affect, one change affects many different things in the game.

mikey_reach

If anything just increase the duration of all defiles to 6 seconds and call it the day.

Bashev

I think healing is ok but health recovery could be adjusted.

ivramirez

Bashev wrote: »

I think healing is ok but health recovery could be adjusted.

This person says that healing is ok. A video worth more that 1000 words.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKA2s0QYLLA

Sanctum74

Your videos don’t prove what you think it does except Zos shouldn’t balance the game over low mmr players.