A set idea to counter ball groups

Luckylancer

Text can be made shorter. Effect can be alterrd, I dont care how balls are made killable as long as it has been done. But it should require skill imo.

5pc: When you deal direct damage to 6 targets you emit a debuffing aura for 9 seconds. This debuff applies every second and deals 5.000 damage around target when it ends and lasts for 10 seconds. Explosion also detonates other debuffs. Players with debuff cant be effected (no refresh). 45 sec cd.

Good luck spamming purges againts this set. No purge = chance to blow up ball groups.

Requirement is too spesific to use on BGS or againts small groups.Cd is too long to justify usage of this set other than blowing up annoying balls.

You still need cordination and skill if ball group's brainless purge bot inhibids himself from spamming that juicy purge button. This is no "I win" set, just an enabler.

Taleof2Cities

Vicious Death is already in the game, @Luckylancer

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

@Luckylancer so groups will just run it and kill stacked pugs faster. Ok

Dunning_Kruger

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Luckylancer so groups will just run it and kill stacked pugs faster. Ok

This was honestly my first thought lmao

idk

I would also add to the discussion that the server tracking who has had the debuff in the past 45 seconds would add to the server load that we are hoping to reduce eventually.

Luckylancer

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Vicious Death is already in the game, @Luckylancer

Ball groups run with high hp. When none of them die, VD doesnt work.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Luckylancer so groups will just run it and kill stacked pugs faster. Ok

The classic argument. They should not kill them faster unless they run purge. Only other scenario is someone cast a class purge or warden squid's auto cleanse but this set is not good if it procs once anyways.

Ball groups buff stack and HoT stack. But they cant be debuff stacked nor DoT stacked. OP imo.

idk wrote: »

I would also add to the discussion that the server tracking who has had the debuff in the past 45 seconds would add to the server load that we are hoping to reduce eventually.

You get it wrong. Enemy will be debuffed when aura procs. Then game will check 9 times to reapply but it wont. Aura will end end debuff will proc once. But this set will proc every second if enemy cast purges.

idk

Luckylancer wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I would also add to the discussion that the server tracking who has had the debuff in the past 45 seconds would add to the server load that we are hoping to reduce eventually.

You get it wrong. Enemy will be debuffed when aura procs. Then game will check 9 times to reapply but it wont. Aura will end end debuff will proc once. But this set will proc every second if enemy cast purges.

And as I said, that is more work for the server.

We already have a skill that will do X direct damage to the target and those around them after a few seconds For each additional target it hits it does more damage. If it is cleansed then it goes off immediately. Additionally, there is no delay in using it again on the same targets if they survived. It can also work well with Viscious Death.

This is more straight forward in design and it's used.

Zer0_CooL

Sieges, use sieges on them. Scattershot increases their damage taken by 20% meatbag reduces their healing taken.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Sieges, use sieges on them. Scattershot increases their damage taken by 20% meatbag reduces their healing taken.

Siege bubble, every healer in pvp runs it and most likely the ball group will move to fast.
There is no situation where a zerg beats a ball group which is specifically constructed to kill a zerg unless there are overwhelming numbers, a close respawn point and siege present.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Luckylancer wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Vicious Death is already in the game, @Luckylancer

Ball groups run with high hp. When none of them die, VD doesnt work.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@Luckylancer so groups will just run it and kill stacked pugs faster. Ok

The classic argument. They should not kill them faster unless they run purge. Only other scenario is someone cast a class purge or warden squid's auto cleanse but this set is not good if it procs once anyways.

Ball groups buff stack and HoT stack. But they cant be debuff stacked nor DoT stacked. OP imo.

idk wrote: »

I would also add to the discussion that the server tracking who has had the debuff in the past 45 seconds would add to the server load that we are hoping to reduce eventually.

You get it wrong. Enemy will be debuffed when aura procs. Then game will check 9 times to reapply but it wont. Aura will end end debuff will proc once. But this set will proc every second if enemy cast purges.

So I just put oil and a ground dot on pugs and they insta blow up or die to oil. Sounds good to me
The funny thing is that I guess people have forgotten 1.4-1.5 of the game where Wall of Elements caused groups to blow up if they purged at the wrong time. Good groups countered it and played around it still and used it to absolutely destroy zergs and large groups. Was actually imo one of the best skills ZOS ever bugged because it made you actually think about using your skills rather than spam them.

DjinnAeternam

How about grouping up and coordinate efforts to face an adversary group?

I really don't understand all this fixation about purge.

Zer0_CooL

IlCanis_LupuslI wrote: »

Zer0_CooL wrote: »

Sieges, use sieges on them. Scattershot increases their damage taken by 20% meatbag reduces their healing taken.

Siege bubble, every healer in pvp runs it and most likely the ball group will move to fast.
There is no situation where a zerg beats a ball group which is specifically constructed to kill a zerg unless there are overwhelming numbers, a close respawn point and siege present.

The bubble reduces damage taken but not the statuseffect. Also ballgroups are mobile and always moving, so chances are good that you hit them outside the buble.

o4m

A sorcs Negate just enough to make balls wipeable - or make them running, at least.

Sorcs, please slot it at prime-time, when most balls are on.

Why there are not more classes with such a nice skill? It hurts just raids that stack hard on crown and spamming heals.

Tommy_The_Gun

Problem is that every time ZOS tried to add some counter to ball groups - it only empowered those ball groups even more. Even recent buffs to Vicious Death were kinda the opposite, as Vicious Death was used by those groups during AOE cooldown tests - to supplement lack of AOE spam.

Imho. The only way you could make some kind of counter without empowering groups is to simply make a condition "This effect works only when you are ungrouped in PvP zone" or something like that.

Either way, currently we have no um... "script" that will detect group / solo and categorize it. That is weird, since ZOS is now categorizing players by this "type of environment" (no cross healing). So the next logical step would be to make something like that. And maybe this will help with balancing a lot. You see, the thing is that group environment enables a lot. That is why ball groups are kinda "a pain" to deal with. It is very effective tactics.

So, since it is different environment (just like PvP is different than PvE environment), I would say that we should have some kind of "global", across the board balancing method. A global buff / de-buff system, like battle spirit, but it will work in a group and will scale with size of the group - larger group = stronger effect.

Also, whenever we have these discussions about something being OP or broken - you will notice that it always has something to do with groups. Not a single solo player - but grouped players. And it makes sense. Multiplicity is the worst enemy of balance. You can balance sets or skill all the way you want, but as soon as you place something in a group environment - that thing's effectiveness skyrockets.

ESO has.. well.. a lot of content. PvE, PvP, overland, etc. On top of that we have different environments (Solo & Group) So balancing this is probably a nightmare and is close to impossible So, until ZOS figures out some kind of global way to balance group environment - we will have those vicious cycles of nerf - buff - nerf - buff that pretty much all players hate.

VaranisArano

DjinnAeternam wrote: »

How about grouping up and coordinate efforts to face an adversary group?

I really don't understand all this fixation about purge.

While I agree that organizing a rival group is a better solution for the intended playstyles in Cyrodiil, I think its worth considering what's going on with Purge.

Purge is a group-centric skill in a PVP mode designed for large scale combat between groups. That's even more obvious with ZOS basically forcing players to group up if they want any cross-healing or purging.

However, ZOS has always struggled to balance organized vs disorganized groups, and Purge really demonstrates that.

The fixation about Purge is that PVP has a ton of negative effects, but Purge enables groups to avoid most of them. Problem is, Purge is an expensive skill so the only people who can use it effectively to keep their groupmates clean(er) of negative effects are the healers in organized raids and ball groups. Its simply too expensive to use at the rate you need to unless you're a dedicated or semi-dedicated healer in a group that can afford to min-max for specialized roles.

In the same vein, while all players put out a lot of negative effects in the course of PVP, organized raids and ball groups pump out A Lot of negative effects as they mow through their less organized enemies.

So you end up in a situation where the disorganized players both have a ton of incoming negative effects AND can't effectively Purge them. While organized raids and ball groups are min-maxed to run specialized builds and thus can Purge off a number of negative effects. The weak get weaker and the strong get stronger, effectively. (We saw a similar problem when ZOS nerfed every source of speed except Rapids, leaving ball groups the only players who could be fast in combat. Bad move, ZOS.)


What would work?
Honestly, I'd make Purge cheap enough that solo players can work it into their rotation, or start attaching Group Purges as a side effect to other skills so players don't have to specialize.

Yes, it makes Purge available without forced grouping, so ZOS might not like it. Forced grouping is their latest thing, it seems.

But it starts to close the gap between organized and disorganized groups, where you don't have to run a dedicated healer to spam purge so your group isn't crippled by negative effects.

There's better ways to even the playing floor than begging for a set that punishes guilds for being organized enough to run a dedicated healer.

Luckylancer

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Imho. The only way you could make some kind of counter without empowering groups is to simply make a condition "This effect works only when you are ungrouped in PvP zone" or something like that.

How can a ball group can use this set? They already slaughter any zerg they contact. Do they need a useless proc that deal minimal damage? What makes my set strong is it does ridiculous damage if you purge and it deal below average proc damage if you dont.

o4m wrote: »

A sorcs Negate just enough to make balls wipeable - or make them running, at least.

Sorcs, please slot it at prime-time, when most balls are on.

Why there are not more classes with such a nice skill? It hurts just raids that stack hard on crown and spamming heals.

How I could not think about this? MAybe their counter nagetes and earthgore procs removes negates. I get their negate counter mine but a mindless proc set? Stupid design.

Ranger209

Make these small modifications to Vicious Death and Proxy Det and it would go along way. This set and skill were implemented to help deal with ball groups, but instead because of the way they work ball groups use them to their advantage.

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 14 meter radius. The radius is reduced by 1 meter for each member in your group


Proximity Detonation
Cast Time: Instant
Target: Area
Range: Radius: 8 meters
Cost: 3510 Magicka
Skill description
Activate a magical bomb on yourself that explodes after 8 seconds, dealing 636 Magic Damage to all enemies in the area. Each enemy within the bomb's radius increases the damage by 25%. Each group member within the bomb's radius decreases the damage done by 25%
New effect
You become the center of the detonation. Removes cast time, but doubles the duration it takes to detonate.

Modifying these things in this way will make them unusable in groups that ball up, and give the advantage to those people running solo as intended.

That and add Ultimate Immunity. Anyone hit by an Ultimate is immune to all other Ultimates for 3 seconds.

That'll fix it.

TheBonesXXX

I don't typically care for the forums when it's the same stuff, but just make heals lose their effectiveness the more people they have to heal.

Seems simple enough.

erio

5pc: when you tbag a dead ball group player you launch a nuclear bomb at their crowns head, dealing 100k damage.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

erio wrote: »

5pc: when you tbag a dead ball group player you launch a nuclear bomb at their crowns head, dealing 100k damage.

We'd slot reflect and go more tanky so you don't have a chance to kill anyone even if we deal less dmg:)

armchair

There are already a decent number of sets in the game that directly counter organized group play style, essentially any set that allows you to deal damage while blocking and doesn't require you to have any offensive stats to work so you can run max health and block cost reduction. Any of the sets that also heal you passively will help your personal survivability. Will also work the best for warden's being that polar winds still heals people outside your group. Several ungroup wardens running 50k health would have no trouble out healing the burst provided they immov pot or react fast enough to start blocking before the synergy's go off, and they will still deal a large amount of combined damage via sets and sub assault. Clown form Necro's and Blazing shield templars would have more passive damage output but be unable to cross heal ungrouped players.

Some of the sets you could consider running would include
Thew's of the Harbinger
Thunderbug
Storm Knight
Night's terror
Crimson twilight
Leeching plate
Grothdar
Frozen watcher
Flame blossom
Explosive rebuke
Sellistrix
Plague slinger
Mad tinker
Twin sisters

Sure there are other sets that I can't think of at the moment. The tools exist in game already if people have the willingness to change to a playstyle that is a direct counter to what large scale organized groups are doing in the current meta. Stop blindly chasing them around and being baited into what they want you to do. Stop chasing them around the third floor of a unburst keep, they can't take it and you should pull them into the guards for free cc's and negates. Don't follow them off objective's through fields into choke points so they can funnel you into a burst.

Luckylancer

armchair wrote: »

Some of the sets you could consider running would include
Thew's of the Harbinger
Thunderbug
Storm Knight
Night's terror
Crimson twilight
Leeching plate
Grothdar
Frozen watcher
Flame blossom
Explosive rebuke
Sellistrix
Plague slinger
Mad tinker
Twin sisters

Sure there are other sets that I can't think of at the moment. The tools exist in game

Most of these sets are designed for PvE tanks and casual content. And if they would be so good at stopping these ball groups we would see it clearly. Some of these are just funny btw.

I get why devs dont listen to forums. Here is a one big cry chamber that everyone whines non stop. When someone try to come with a solution everyone just disagree and try to undermine it. No one likes anything, they just cry, whine, undermine etc. There is only disagreement here. If I were a dev, I would not look here too.

One dude thinks a set that is only usefull againts cleanse users thinks ball groups can use it too. Why? Because he conditioned himself to say "whatever you add in game to counter balls, they will use it".

Another one is listing me weak aoe dot tank proc sets. Everyone use the strongest variant (crinson) anyways in life server. But my mistake I think thunderbug and grothdar will kill those ball groups.

VaranisArano

Yes, because not immediately embracing your idea equates to crying, whining, and undermining.


I do have some questions about the implementation of the set.

So, it looks like this is the debuff-powered set version of Inevitable Detonation, with some scaling for how many players are nearby, right?

Some of your wording is confusing. You emit a debuffing aura, but the damage is around the target. Which target? You had to deal direct damage to six targets first...

I have some qualms about how I think this set would be used in practice, but I can't really critique it unless I can figure out how its supposed to work, you know?


So let me try to restate your proposed set effect in a way I think gets what you were going for.

Original:
5pc: When you deal direct damage to 6 targets you emit a debuffing aura for 9 seconds. This debuff applies every second and deals 5.000 damage around target when it ends and lasts for 10 seconds. Explosion also detonates other debuffs. Players with debuff cant be effected (no refresh). 45 sec cd.

Revised:
5pc: You gain a debuffing aura for 9 secs when you deal direct damage to 6 enemies. Then, debuff your target to give them the debuffing aura instead. After 10 seconds, the debuffing aura detonates dealing 5000 damage around the target. Each debuff within the aura's radius increases the damage by ?%. Detonating the aura gives the affected targets global immunity from the aura for 45 seconds.


Is that what you were going for? I want to make sure I understand what this set is supposed to be doing before I start throwing out the critiques.

TheBonesXXX

The easiest way to counter a ball group is with another ball group.

A war machine is not countered by throwing pillows at it.

Cathexis

They just need a set that adds absurdly scaling damage and damage reduction when no other same team players, and cuts in half every time there is a new same team player, around so that when you are getting hit by yourself it levels the playing field.

Cathexis

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

The easiest way to counter a ball group is with another ball group.

A war machine is not countered by throwing pillows at it.

Ya omg except wait what happens when you don't have another ball group available?
Oh that's right, pvp becomes ***.
Which is usually the case. 80%-90% of the time.

Sides are not always going to be even numbers.
People are not always running in coordinated groups.
It would be nice if there could be some competitive play still happening when there isn't even numbers of players, or where every player isn't on discord.

VaranisArano

Cathexis wrote: »

They just need a set that adds absurdly scaling damage and damage reduction when no other same team players, and cuts in half every time there is a new same team player, around so that when you are getting hit by yourself it levels the playing field.

Yes, because if there's one thing ZOS loves, its making 1vX easier.

ThePedge

Get organised and fight back.