ZOS's Vision for the Vampire Skill Line and How to Achieve it.

Vevvev · November 2020

I've been playing with ZOS's vampire rework since its early days on the PTS server, and while I never agreed with anything ZOS came up with for it due to its lore breaking nature I continued to stick with it. Sometimes I'd cure my character but I kept going back for roleplay reasons and this nagging desire to see just how far I could push the spell damage buffs vampire gave. Over and over I tried to make the new vampire skill line work and failed.... until Markarth gave us the Ring of the Pale Order and now I see what was has holding ZOS's vampire back.

First we have to look back at that video in which the creative director said "Blood Frenzy ticks all the boxes of what it means to be a vampire." I'll link it for those who have not seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkI9UYcM_ZM

When I first heard that sentence I honestly felt like ZOS had lost their mind since nowhere in Elder Scrolls lore do you see vampire sacrificing their own vitality for power. Its always been about siphoning life from other people to fuel their abilities. ZOS originally intended Vampiric Drain to be that ability that gave you the vitality you needed to fuel Blood Frenzy but due to just how terrible of a healing ability it is nobody in their right mind would use it. With the Ring of the Pale Order I've found myself suddenly with more health than I can use, which led to me slotting Blood Frenzy and still having more health than I can use. That's when it hit me as to what Rich was saying about Blood Frenzy. He intended vampires to siphon health from their foes to fuel their frenzy ability to grow in power.

Here are a few things ZOS could do to make the vampire skill line fit better into their game and fulfill what they originally intended to do.

First off making it so other people cannot heal you with Blood for Blood and Blood Frenzy active is honestly a really bad idea. Both of them together? Sure I can see that, but to make that a reality both abilities should limit incoming healing by 50%, and that 50% can stack making it a true 100% when both abilities are in use. That would be balanced and make vampire DPS a little bit more usable in groups, while also making the Blood Frenzy and Blood for Blood combination a bad idea as it truly would lock them out of group healing completely.

Buff Vampiric Drain so that its heal is based off max offensive stats (Maybe even make it scale off your highest offensive stats for stamina Vamps) or max health instead of missing health like it is now. Vampiric Drain seriously needs this buff as the heal is so weak that Sated Fury is actually a better heal than this ability... and every other offensive ability in this game that comes with a heal, not only to mention its channeled and has so many counters it should really heal more. (Burning Embers, Bloodthirsty, and Swallow Soul to name a few better offensive heals.) In order for Vampire to truly feel like a vampire it needs far, FAR more healing to fuel its abilities. Vampire is currently all health sinks with nothing to really fill the pool back up.

Last thing is the lack of mobility vampire has as its a melee focused skill line with no way to keep up with its targets. I could rail against the stun being bad but the fix is honestly a bit more simple than that. Vampire used to have Minor Expedition on Accelerating Drain which was an old Vampiric Drain morph before Greymoor, and the ultimate called Clouding Swarm had a gap closer built in. Some on the forums have been begging for the gap closer, but if ZOS introduced the Minor Expedition buff onto the stage 4 passive it'd honestly be a life saver.

TL;DR: Vampire needs a bit more healing in the skill line so that it can actually take better advantage of some of its abilities, also it needs a small speed boost to go hand in hand with its melee nature and lack of a gap closer ability.

zvavi · November 2020

I actually very like the idea of 50% healing from allies reduction on blood for blood and blood frenzy, but it might make the current abilities a bit too strong, and in need of balance. Lowering the value of blood frenzy, or making it turn off automatically if no enemy died in the last 8 seconds are great examples for restrictions you could add to it with the 50 50 change.

Dracane · November 2020

Eviscerate looks just like what Lord Winterborn uses and how batswarms cap closer used to be. I really expected Eviscerate to have a gap closer component. Maybe not 22 meters, but 15 to keep up.

All in all in the end, vampire went from bad on the pts to worse and then to forgotten again. It is such a bad design from the very base and many have explained why and what to change, so that I will not bother. I was vampire prior to Greymoor and purged it shortly after.

Luckylancer · November 2020

Evicerate is nerfed because all mag dds used it. ZoS punished vampire players and did not revisit it for better fix. Drain is useless for months.

Talking to ZoS is similar to taking to some with coma. Maybe ZoS hear you maybe dont but ZoS wont do anything regardless.

ESO_Nightingale · November 2020

I do generally like the idea of the vampire skills. I also have my problems with them. I never liked blood for blood. And the fact that everyone used it in pve really irked me, a health scaling spammable is cool on paper, but the sustain it gives is too much imo. Yes you needed to offset it with healers, but everyone being a vampire because of it just made it feel way too intrusive. Arterial Burst is fine since it costs magicka. And i like it a lot because it's a more niche spammable for magicka melee builds on classes that don't already have one. For example, magicka warden, necromancer and sorcerer. And i think that's great to open up some playstyle variety for those classes.

I think that swarming scion is a great rework of devouring swarm because it feels more powerful. However, the other morph, perfect scion is a bit too underpowered compared to it. After testing it, perfect scion seems to me, to be a niche ultimate for vampires who stay in stage 1. It ranks up in cost reduction, so costs a little less than swarming scion, and allows your character to gain the benefits of stage 4 with none of the downsides. This means, stage 1 vampires can access the stage 4 passives while still being stage 1. But only while in scion form. However, this niche is not enough to make this morph worthwhile even for stage 1 vampires, as swarming offers so much more for your ultimate spent. Perfect could probably use an additional cost reduction.

Sated fury was a skill i was interested in until it's nerf before the patch dropped and i was sad to see it go, as it was similar to a magicka rally. It has its niche for bomb builds, but no-one uses it outside of that due to the ramping cost. Though i can't deny that a free 660 spell/weapon damage was a little outrageous.

Vampire drain is a really sad skill at the moment. As it's been designed for utility and healing. But the biggest glaring issue is that it is a channeled ability. As it does little damage, and it's utility and healing are meh, there is little reason to use this skill over literally any other one. Being a channeled ability restricts your movement somewhat, and does not allow you to use any other skills or actions. It's simply not worth it because it does so little to warrant it's use.

Mesmirise is definitely in the catagory of decent, especially the stupify morph. Adding a snare to something in the vampire's kit allows the niche magicka melee builds to be more sticky while fighting enemies. My only issue with the skill is that it doesn't do any damage. But it's a small concern.

Elusive mist is as good as always. And baleful mist was turned into a useable morph with blood mist. Glad to see that happen.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Copy / pasting my post from another thread as a missed this one.

"I still maintain that vampire abilities should scale with vampire stage vs just the passives.

Ex:

- Stage 1 - BFB deals x damage
- Stage 2 - BFB deals x1.25 damage
- Stage 3 - BFB deals x1.5 damage
- Stage 4 - BFB deals x1.5 damage and adds a life drain dot

Or something to that effect. This might actually promote using vampire at higher stages and fit with the idea of getting stronger as you progress. As it currently stands there is not enough incentive and far too many drawbacks to advancing.

I mean... at stage 4 - zero health recovery, +12% reg ability cost, increased fire damage....is in no way offset by the vampire cost decrease and an out of combat invisibility bonus.

My 2cents"

To expand on that and the gap closer idea. Possibly make eviscerate similar to merciless resolve off the NB line. After 5 attacks with eviscerate and at stage 4 it generates a gap closer. Could be cool

Vevvev · November 2020

DT-ARR wrote: »

To expand on that and the gap closer idea. Possibly make eviscerate similar to merciless resolve off the NB line. After 5 attacks with eviscerate and at stage 4 it generates a gap closer. Could be cool

Issue with that is if you've gotten the 5 attacks off.... you obviously didn't need the gap closer. The gap closer is more to keep up with highly mobile targets who can kite you all day long, which is why a speed boost would help vampire tremendously as I've noticed the Ring of the Wild Hunt is another mythic that synergizes well with vampire. More so with its melee nature than with the life stealing one.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

show previous quotes

DT-ARR wrote: »

To expand on that and the gap closer idea. Possibly make eviscerate similar to merciless resolve off the NB line. After 5 attacks with eviscerate and at stage 4 it generates a gap closer. Could be cool

Issue with that is if you've gotten the 5 attacks off.... you obviously didn't need the gap closer. The gap closer is more to keep up with highly mobile targets who can kite you all day long, which is why a speed boost would help vampire tremendously as I've noticed the Ring of the Wild Hunt is another mythic that synergizes well with vampire. More so with its melee nature than with the life stealing one.

True. Just off the top / out of the box ideas. Or instead of gap closer it adds a snare at stage 4. There are so many different avenues that could be explored.

Ultimately though i think the big balancing act comes with the recognition that this is a sub class, and not a full kit.

Regardless though - I still think scaling the abilities with stage to unlock the juicier parts of the vampire wish list is the best way to go. Otherwise we are back to square one with the majority of players sitting on stage 1 for a passive (pre-graymore).

Vevvev · November 2020

DT-ARR wrote: »

Ultimately though i think the big balancing act comes with the recognition that this is a sub class, and not a full kit.

Regardless though - I still think scaling the abilities with stage to unlock the juicier parts of the vampire wish list is the best way to go. Otherwise we are back to square one with the majority of players sitting on stage 1 for a passive (pre-graymore).

Yeah, that would be the better way to go although lately I've been sitting at stage 4 with my current vampire build mostly for the reduced vampire costs and the sprinting efficiency since I have 0 points in stamina lol. Honestly I encounter more Dawnbreakers than other fellow magDKs so the flame damage isn't that big of a deal for me, especially when the stage 3 passive can negate some of it to.

You're right though as it is a sub class, but it is one of those sub classes that tries to overwrite your class's identity. It needs to synergize better with itself if it truly wishes to remain competitive on the field and not require an item like the Ring of the Pale Order which requires owning 3 DLCs to even be able to acquire.

Sephyr · November 2020

Fun fact. The ability that Vorenor Winterbourne uses in Spindleclutch II has an ability called Blood Frenzy and it's his gap closer.

I wouldn't mind the gap closer being tied to Swarming Scion though, as it'd make that just the same as Clouding Swarm was.

DT-ARR wrote: »

Regardless though - I still think scaling the abilities with stage to unlock the juicier parts of the vampire wish list is the best way to go. Otherwise we are back to square one with the majority of players sitting on stage 1 for a passive (pre-graymore).

And for the record, we're already at that point with Dark Stalker. Most see it as the easy way out to enhance stealth combat, but rarely push past Stage 2. However most that just loot and steal stay at Stage 1. Honestly, I think Dark Stalker should be tied in with Strike from the Shadows and then add some kind of group utility that allows for what Vevvev was mentioning in their OP if people are worried about balance, but it's fine either way really. I just wish the line was more engaging.

Vevvev · November 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the gap closer being tied to Swarming Scion though, as it'd make that just the same as Clouding Swarm was.

Or just turn the Blood Scion's light attacks into a gap closer melee so then Perfect Scion gets it to. That morph is in real need of something to make it an option over Swarming Scion.

Sephyr · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

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Sephyr wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the gap closer being tied to Swarming Scion though, as it'd make that just the same as Clouding Swarm was.

Or just turn the Blood Scion's light attacks into a gap closer melee so then Perfect Scion gets it to. That morph is in real need of something to make it an option over Swarming Scion.

Yeah, that could work too. Though I don't know if I see them changing the light attacks since they want us to 'use weapons'.

A probably much simpler alternative? Include it in the base form of Blood Scion. Have it available for both morphs and maybe have some differences with what the gap close does. Maybe Perfect Scion could snare since Swarming Scion has the swarm-leech.

Vevvev · November 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

show previous quotes

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the gap closer being tied to Swarming Scion though, as it'd make that just the same as Clouding Swarm was.

Or just turn the Blood Scion's light attacks into a gap closer melee so then Perfect Scion gets it to. That morph is in real need of something to make it an option over Swarming Scion.

Yeah, that could work too. Though I don't know if I see them changing the light attacks since they want us to 'use weapons'.

A probably much simpler alternative? Include it in the base form of Blood Scion. Have it available for both morphs and maybe have some differences with what the gap close does. Maybe Perfect Scion could snare since Swarming Scion has the swarm-leech.

Have you ever used Clouding Swarm? What I'm suggesting is like that where you can still use weapon skills and gain weapon passives, but the attack itself teleports you into melee range and you blast the target with blood magic.

I took pictures of the animation and I can link them when I get back to my computer. (on my phone)

Sephyr · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Sephyr wrote: »

I wouldn't mind the gap closer being tied to Swarming Scion though, as it'd make that just the same as Clouding Swarm was.

Or just turn the Blood Scion's light attacks into a gap closer melee so then Perfect Scion gets it to. That morph is in real need of something to make it an option over Swarming Scion.

Yeah, that could work too. Though I don't know if I see them changing the light attacks since they want us to 'use weapons'.

A probably much simpler alternative? Include it in the base form of Blood Scion. Have it available for both morphs and maybe have some differences with what the gap close does. Maybe Perfect Scion could snare since Swarming Scion has the swarm-leech.

Have you ever used Clouding Swarm? What I'm suggesting is like that where you can still use weapon skills and gain weapon passives, but the attack itself teleports you into melee range and you blast the target with blood magic.

I took pictures of the animation and I can link them when I get back to my computer. (on my phone)

I have, but what I'm saying is that I just don't see ZoS changing it due to how they've been adjusting animations and mechanics with light attack as it is - and they broke that for two weeks and it's still somewhat broken. To me, I'd just rather not add to the list of potential issues that could arise given how their track record of what's happened any time when they've adjusted light attacks, let alone add additional features.

Edit: Essentially, I just don't trust them to pull that off in the current state of the game.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

show previous quotes

DT-ARR wrote: »

Ultimately though i think the big balancing act comes with the recognition that this is a sub class, and not a full kit.

Regardless though - I still think scaling the abilities with stage to unlock the juicier parts of the vampire wish list is the best way to go. Otherwise we are back to square one with the majority of players sitting on stage 1 for a passive (pre-graymore).

You're right though as it is a sub class, but it is one of those sub classes that tries to overwrite your class's identity. It needs to synergize better with itself if it truly wishes to remain competitive on the field and not require an item like the Ring of the Pale Order which requires owning 3 DLCs to even be able to acquire.

100% with you. I'm just thinking the best way to go about adding those extra synergies is via the skills / morphs themselves which unlock at higher stage. Kills two birds with one stone - not making it OP for those who take it at stage 1 and expect full benefits, and makes it viable for those who commit who have lost functionality of their base class with the steep advancement penalties.

Vevvev · November 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

I have, but what I'm saying is that I just don't see ZoS changing it due to how they've been adjusting animations and mechanics with light attack as it is - and they broke that for two weeks and it's still somewhat broken. To me, I'd just rather not add to the list of potential issues that could arise given how their track record of what's happened any time when they've adjusted light attacks, let alone add additional features.

Edit: Essentially, I just don't trust them to pull that off in the current state of the game.

True.....

Then again with that line of thinking we should also change Mesmerize since with ZOS's servers being terrible at position keeping the stun is harder to land than it really should be. You're right but ZOS are not balancing vampire for the game's internal bugs and issues.... sadly.

Sephyr · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

True.....

Then again with that line of thinking we should also change Mesmerize since with ZOS's servers being terrible at position keeping the stun is harder to land than it really should be. You're right but ZOS are not balancing vampire for the game's internal bugs and issues.... sadly.

It's a major feel. I mean for what it's worth? Had we the perfect team? I think a light attack gap closer would be awesome because it'd allow for that more engaging feel within the form that's otherwise lacking. I just really feel like I can't trust the current development team to make it fluid as Clouding was, which is probably why it was just set to use the ult key once you popped it.

And Mesmerize definitely needs a change of some sort. I've ended up using my Necro fear again since it's a little more reliable, even though there's a bit of a delay to that fear. I don't know how I'd change that one, personally. Make it where people who even have it in their peripheral gets stunned as well would be a start, but with how player positioning is... It's a lot like vehicle mirrors. Except we don't know if they're closer or farther away, let alone what direction they'll be facing. Also, is it just me or does Blood Scion not seem 'scary'? Werewolves fear when they transform, but random townies will just drop what their doing to smack a Blood Scion.

Vevvev · November 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

Also, is it just me or does Blood Scion not seem 'scary'? Werewolves fear when they transform, but random townies will just drop what their doing to smack a Blood Scion.

The answer to that question is found in this video.....

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47F0E_dodDU

I'll leave it at that.

Sephyr wrote: »

It's a major feel. I mean for what it's worth? Had we the perfect team? I think a light attack gap closer would be awesome because it'd allow for that more engaging feel within the form that's otherwise lacking. I just really feel like I can't trust the current development team to make it fluid as Clouding was, which is probably why it was just set to use the ult key once you popped it.

The secret reason I don't wanna put the gap closer on the ultimate key is because of Bastion Sanguinaris. When you're in your Scion form there the ultimate button turns into a transform back button like with werewolf and how they can revert back. Part of me is wishing to preserve that functionality for a more... unique vampire form that can be extended.... with greater downsides of course to counter the increased power. But that kind of thing would fall into one of those "vampire rework rework" threads.

Sephyr · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

show previous quotes

Sephyr wrote: »

Also, is it just me or does Blood Scion not seem 'scary'? Werewolves fear when they transform, but random townies will just drop what their doing to smack a Blood Scion.

The answer to that question is found in this video.....
Spoiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47F0E_dodDU

I'll leave it at that.

show previous quotes

Sephyr wrote: »

It's a major feel. I mean for what it's worth? Had we the perfect team? I think a light attack gap closer would be awesome because it'd allow for that more engaging feel within the form that's otherwise lacking. I just really feel like I can't trust the current development team to make it fluid as Clouding was, which is probably why it was just set to use the ult key once you popped it.

The secret reason I don't wanna put the gap closer on the ultimate key is because of Bastion Sanguinaris. When you're in your Scion form there the ultimate button turns into a transform back button like with werewolf and how they can revert back. Part of me is wishing to preserve that functionality for a more... unique vampire form that can be extended.... with greater downsides of course to counter the increased power. But that kind of thing would fall into one of those "vampire rework rework" threads.

Oh, how have I not seen that video? That... That does explain things.

I can see that. One thing that I'd probably try and figure out is conditions on what would remove the transformation in Bastion. How I'd probably fix that personally is taking a look at combat states (PvE with dummies and PvP with duels) and making the gap closer only available there within any form of combat and making it so that combat state overrides Bastion's toggle until you're no longer in combat, reverting it back in the process.

Part of me wishes for a form extension too. Maybe with some group support within the passives since if we put Dark Stalker's effect into Strike from the Shadows, there'd be that free passive there that'd could have something similar to werewolves. And certainly with greater downsides (maybe we're stuck with the vampire abilities in Scion form or something). Certainly something to go in a rework rework thread. I just don't know how well some of my ideas would fit, like putting Dark Stalker into Strike from the Shadows to free up a passive to incorporate some group gameplay mechanic for vamps in general (but also requiring a stage mechanic of sort to balance that out). But I'm in the pile that I have too many spoons and not enough pudding (ideas, but most aren't fully fleshed out with a balanced approach just yet).

Yamenstein · November 2020

I honestly don't think ZOS is going to change anything too drastically anytime soon for the vampire skills. If they do then there are some great ideas in this thread.

It makes me feel like Zos just holds on to part of the player base by saying they are looking into things, or on players hoping some things change. Goes to show how many people love the game, despite it feeling like Zos is screwing around with us a lot.

Even acknowledging what is said in these threads. I get that they can't reply to every single message but communication please!

DT-ARR · November 2020

Heres an idea (borrowed from a separate thread regarding expanding morphs beyond the standard 2 options). Allow vampire additional morphs per stage.

If ZOS is unwilling to just grant bonuses to the skills themselves as stage progresses, allow for additional morphs beyond the traditional two which will also require additional skill points to be used. And only open the option as your vamp stage increases.

Probably a tall order as it would completely disrupt the standard progression. But it would cement the idea of becoming more powerful, and at a cost, as stages increase.

Just a thought.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Thoughts on adding minor berserk as a stage 4 passive buff? It's kind of ridiculous that all you get is out of combat invis given the substantial increase in penalties from 3 to 4...

Vevvev · November 2020

Um.... I'm not exactly sure on that. Sure it'd totally make stage 4 more powerful but the passive is called "Unnatural Movement". Minor Expedition sounds more that passive's style than Minor Berserk.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Well...names can be changed.

Vevvev · November 2020

True, but does vampire really need more power right now? The skill line can pull some insane damage when built right so increased damage isn't an issue.

Sephyr · November 2020

Vevvev wrote: »

True, but does vampire really need more power right now? The skill line can pull some insane damage when built right so increased damage isn't an issue.

Yeah, I can agree with this. I can push the spammable upwards of 12k base damage, so damage isn't the issue. Minor Expedition would be nice.

I still miss that old Elusive Mist though (the speed at least).

ESO_Nightingale · November 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

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Vevvev wrote: »

True, but does vampire really need more power right now? The skill line can pull some insane damage when built right so increased damage isn't an issue.

Yeah, I can agree with this. I can push the spammable upwards of 12k base damage, so damage isn't the issue. Minor Expedition would be nice.

I still miss that old Elusive Mist though (the speed at least).

I don't think elusive mist changed. You meant accelerating drain right? That was minor expedition replaced with the stamina return morph.

Vevvev · November 2020

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

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Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

True, but does vampire really need more power right now? The skill line can pull some insane damage when built right so increased damage isn't an issue.

Yeah, I can agree with this. I can push the spammable upwards of 12k base damage, so damage isn't the issue. Minor Expedition would be nice.

I still miss that old Elusive Mist though (the speed at least).

I don't think elusive mist changed. You meant accelerating drain right? That was minor expedition replaced with the stamina return morph.

Elusive mist used to come with a unique 60% (or was it 70%? I forgot) movement speed buff instead of major expedition which it has today. People were using it as the ultimate kiting tool since they ignored 75% of all damage and couldn't be CC'd during the 3 seconds it was active per cast.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Sephyr wrote: »

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Vevvev wrote: »

True, but does vampire really need more power right now? The skill line can pull some insane damage when built right so increased damage isn't an issue.

Yeah, I can agree with this. I can push the spammable upwards of 12k base damage, so damage isn't the issue. Minor Expedition would be nice.

Correct me if i’m wrong, perhaps there are factors im not taking into account, but my mag NB concealed weapon tooltip is the same as eviscerate . And this is without the zero (0%) health recovery, +12% regular ability cost, and increased flame damage taken, and an inability to be healed by others in group content...to say nothing of the outright annoyance of regular merchants refusing to talk to you when at stage 4 unless youve got a particular skill/morph slotted.

So it seems like its simply on par with other magicka melee spammables and elevated over standard range attacks of most classes because of the additional risk of being in melee range and the lack of flexibility that comes with it.

And to those that might bring it up, i’m sorry but access to a suicide button in blood frenzy shouldn’t count, especially considering the current state of the game from a lag/performance standpoint and further inability to be healed or partake in group content..

Separate / side idea - how about a % health drain per hit with stage? 2/4/6/8% of damage dealt back as a heal? Adds an element of ring of the pale order that isnt locked behind a paywall.

Regardless though - I also see the merit of a speed buff passive as well.

Vevvev · November 2020

DT-ARR wrote: »

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Sephyr wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

True, but does vampire really need more power right now? The skill line can pull some insane damage when built right so increased damage isn't an issue.

Yeah, I can agree with this. I can push the spammable upwards of 12k base damage, so damage isn't the issue. Minor Expedition would be nice.

Correct me if i’m wrong, perhaps there are factors im not taking into account, but my mag NB concealed weapon tooltip is the same as eviscerate . And this is without the zero (0%) health recovery, +12% regular ability cost, and increased flame damage taken, and an inability to be healed by others in group content...to say nothing of the outright annoyance of regular merchants refusing to talk to you when at stage 4 unless youve got a particular skill/morph slotted.

So it seems like its simply on par with other magicka melee spammables and elevated over standard range attacks of most classes because of the additional risk of being in melee range and the lack of flexibility that comes with it.

And to those that might bring it up, i’m sorry but access to a suicide button in blood frenzy shouldn’t count, especially considering the current state of the game from a lag/performance standpoint and further inability to be healed or partake in group content..

Separate / side idea - how about a % health drain per hit with stage? 2/4/6/8% of damage dealt back as a heal? Adds an element of ring of the pale order that isnt locked behind a paywall.

Regardless though - I also see the merit of a speed buff passive as well.

Eviscerate is lacklaster yes, but its morphs are not. I already did plenty of calculations on them and found the following.

Arterial Burst increases in base damage by 1.1% per rank making rank 4 have 3.3% more damage. It also scales up to 33% more damage based on your missing health with a guaranteed crit when you're below 50% health. Arterial Burst thanks to the vampire passives is also one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest, magicka costing spammables in the game.

Blood for Blood has the same base damage that never increases but it costs health to cast making it practically free if you have the self healing to fuel it. It locks you out of healing from others so incredible self healing is required, but Blood for Blood beats Arterial Burst when it comes to damage once you've lost about just 10% of your max health. Just 10%..... that means everything underneath that value is just ridiculous amounts of damage and its not eating away at your magicka pool. You can save your magicka for more heals to stay in the fight, as well as buffs, stuns, and other things to make your opponent's life miserable.

And all of this gets more crazy when you turn on Blood Frenzy.... which I highly would not recommend doing against a magDK running Grothdarr, Elf Bane, and Malacath's Ring lol. That combo really messed me up last night in my duels outside Wayrest, but everyone else I fought, save for one shield stacker using the Vateshran Destruction staff, could not hold their own against vampire's almost infinite sustain with the Blood for Blood + Ring of the Pale Order combo.

DT-ARR · November 2020

Good information. Glad someone is taking a deeper dive than myself.

I sadly don't have Ring of the Pale Order (or access to mythics in general as I havn't purchased it). A shame that its a quasi requirement to fully utilize the kit.