Issue with Templar tank

Seaviy

Most of the time before I was tanking on the Warden, recently leveled up my Sorc and Templar tank during event to try something new.

Sorс is quite interesting, despite the weak utility for the group, but has access to quite powerful heals: Clannfear, fantastic Dark Deal (15k+ crit heals, and this ability is not even a scale of HP) and passive heals with crits via Surge. And the gameplay itself is quite fun.

The Templar has its own set of tools for the group, but in terms of self-heals, it's a kinda disaster. Cleansing Ritual really good ability but it gives only slow heals over time. Bosses on some encounters and numerous trash mobs simply do not allow you to keep up normally compared to any of the other classes. Of the options there is still Vigor and Honor the Dead, but they are quite demanding in terms of stamina/mana. Even when leveling and questing in the world I started to notice that sometimes I sag on HP.

The only ability I noticed scale of HP is Sun Shield, but it doesn't give the same sustain as how other abilities which scale of hp of other classes (it would be great to see any changes in this ability, for example, heal at the end of the shield, instead of dealing damage).

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, are there any options how to improve the situation with self-heals?

Drdeath20

Every other class has a uniquely powerful reason to play as a tank on. Theres just no good reason to tank on a templar

Fennwitty

I haven't made a 'real' tank Templar yet, so take this theorycrafting with a *huge* grain of salt based on my Argonian 'tanky' healer:

You might have to lean hard on skills to provide continuous selfheal vs. burst. This can require a good amount of *expensive* Magicka skills which means you're gonna need good sustain there to keep healing, and fortunately you have some good sustain abilities. So having an overall lower max HP isn't necessarily bad.

Options:
Puncturing Sweeps (magicka) heals you a little while snaring enemies. The passive Spear Wall also gives you 5% damage reduction.
Living Dark on large groups: This will heal a lot if multiple enemies are attacking you in melee.
Repentence/Radiant Aura: The passive regen is now very strong, and based on your playstyle can restore your health/stam directly, or magicka over time to you and the whole group.
Channeled Focus: Try to get this activated prior to healing for the extra minor mending given by passive Sacred Ground. The magicka regen is very helpful.
Restoring Spirit Passive: Nice overall 5% ability reduction.
Fighter's Guild Turn Evil: This is Stam regen, but I mention it also because it's a good trash crowd control where Templars otherwise don't have one. Plus gives Minor Protection (though MP here overlaps with Minor Protection the Spear Wall passive). Might be worth trying out Ring of Preservation morph, it's not instant but a lot of condensed healing takes place, which I believe you can boost with Minor Mending if you use Channeled Focus/Cleansing Ritual first.

1-h/Shield: Absorb Missile might be better for you than Sun Shield, it still scales with max health but also restores magicka.


Also try out the new Frost Staff. The damage shields are now plentiful there, and you get Magicka back when they're used thanks to passive Destruction Expert (and if you happen to finish off a mob by chance, more magicka for killing them). Elemental Drain is an option for additional magicka restore.

Sanguinor2

Depends on what you want to do with it. If you just want to run dungeons or something you can use sets like leeching armor or other sets that heal you regulary. If you want to become a traditional debuff tank like every other class can play then you are out of luck if you have to, at any point, survive by yourself.
I played a templar "tank" in vet Kyne´s Aegis hardmodes, the end result was me not tanking anything dangerous (so only small adds) since unlike any other tank I could not recover by myself from a heavy attack or a hard hitting aoE. In boss fights I swapped to a healer setup and guarded the maintank who tanked everything without problems since he was a dk.

zvavi

Sorc had quite a lot of group utility going for him. Altar+power surge was a great group HoT, combined with crystal weapons for more group pen, it was quite nice, additionally your ultimates cost less, which means more warhorns. But they nerfed altar to not proc power surge, so utility went down.

Templars are on the other hand... Idk. Maybe I just suck with them. They feel like budget nb tank, heals+shields but weaker heals.

Wandering_Immigrant

One thing templar tank can do that others can't really is to stack shields the same way a magsorc would by combining sun shield with the shield from sword and board. This combined with your HoT and decent health regen will keep you alive through anything with minimal effort from a healer. I do this with over 40k health (don't recall the exact number) and the shields add another 23k

With no healer, in a 3 dps situation, I like to play as healy-tank. For this I wear Vanus weapons and jewelry and slot ritual of rebirth to keep everyone alive including myself. This setup gives me 34k health with 24k mag and stam (the higher value alternates between bars with only a difference of a couple hundred either way). I like pairing it with senchal defender, which makes me basically a battery throwing around orbs and/or shards just to spend magika so it's not wasted. At that point I'm basically a sword & board healer with max resists who taunts and groups things.

You can also do a tweener setup by replacing senchal with ebon (or your normal tanking set of choice) and using something like Symphony for sustain. This will exchange a little bit of max resource for a good amount of health. You'll lose a lot of self sustain, but since symphony gives group sustain you don't need to worry as much about orbs and shalks, and can play it more traditionally.

Seaviy

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Depends on what you want to do with it. If you just want to run dungeons or something you can use sets like leeching armor or other sets that heal you regulary. If you want to become a traditional debuff tank like every other class can play then you are out of luck if you have to, at any point, survive by yourself.
I played a templar "tank" in vet Kyne´s Aegis hardmodes, the end result was me not tanking anything dangerous (so only small adds) since unlike any other tank I could not recover by myself from a heavy attack or a hard hitting aoE. In boss fights I swapped to a healer setup and guarded the maintank who tanked everything without problems since he was a dk.

I'm pretty ok with tanking only random/vet dungeons, no raiding stuff. I just feel sometimes not tough enough for some encounters without a healer, unlike my tank/sorc. Most of the time I use Ebon (On warden) / Warrior Poet (Sorc/Templar) +
Spell Power Cure / Powerful Assault. Spell Power Cure now doesn't work with vines/altar that's why I decided to try Templar to give buff through Cleansing Ritual.

Seaviy

zvavi wrote: »

Sorc had quite a lot of group utility going for him. Altar+power surge was a great group HoT, combined with crystal weapons for more group pen, it was quite nice, additionally your ultimates cost less, which means more warhorns. But they nerfed altar to not proc power surge, so utility went down.

Templars are on the other hand... Idk. Maybe I just suck with them. They feel like budget nb tank, heals+shields but weaker heals.

Despite the fact that warden has a little more utility, I like sorc tank the most. The only thing that the game makes you use a pet (I really do not like pets and similar mechanics), but I decided to play without him. Heals from dark deal + surge (and vigor for Powerful Assault) is more than enough. If you use Warrior Poet the pet's passive health bonus will be about 3k, which is not such a big loss, despite the fact that I already have 42k hp and I can use 2 extra skills without it.

Drdeath20

You are basically using all world skills. There is just no reason to tank on a templar. The few templar skills you do use are not powerful for a tank or in general special.

xaraan

I've been asking for Templar tank improvements for years and we haven't seen much. Little bits here and there, but not what they really need.

A health based self heal would do wonders, but there are plenty of other tweaks needed as well. Out of all my six tanks, my Templar is (even though my favorite class) my least favorite tank and they make the worst tanks.

Sure, you can do basic stuff with them, actually I've even done most vet HM trials on my Templar as time has gone by, but it's not a fun experience compared to other classes and you can definitely feel the power difference.

jekyto

I maintain a templar tank and i love it. Problem with endgame tanks is actually different and is not the class really. Just everyone is following score pushers builds, using all the same sets, buffs and skills, which is somehow optimising group wise. But when your class is missing something that can be provided by a set, and then your dps refuse to change champ points so you wont need to use alkosh for example, dont expect things to change. Like you cant expect same dps from different classes etc etc. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing bad in score pushing, just 90% of the people are out of idea how to make own comfortable build, they are not even score pushing, then theres just complaints how bad a certain class is.

Sanguinor2

jekyto wrote: »

I maintain a templar tank and i love it. Problem with endgame tanks is actually different and is not the class really. Just everyone is following score pushers builds, using all the same sets, buffs and skills, which is somehow optimising group wise. But when your class is missing something that can be provided by a set, and then your dps refuse to change champ points so you wont need to use alkosh for example, dont expect things to change. Like you cant expect same dps from different classes etc etc. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing bad in score pushing, just 90% of the people are out of idea how to make own comfortable build, they are not even score pushing, then theres just complaints how bad a certain class is.

When out of 6 classes only 1 class needs to slot certain sets to do something the other classes can easily do without these sets the problem is the class.

jekyto

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

jekyto wrote: »

I maintain a templar tank and i love it. Problem with endgame tanks is actually different and is not the class really. Just everyone is following score pushers builds, using all the same sets, buffs and skills, which is somehow optimising group wise. But when your class is missing something that can be provided by a set, and then your dps refuse to change champ points so you wont need to use alkosh for example, dont expect things to change. Like you cant expect same dps from different classes etc etc. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing bad in score pushing, just 90% of the people are out of idea how to make own comfortable build, they are not even score pushing, then theres just complaints how bad a certain class is.

When out of 6 classes only 1 class needs to slot certain sets to do something the other classes can easily do without these sets the problem is the class.

Ye, i see nightblade and sorc main tanks wanted in every run. And just to remind you now templar's ritual is back in the game for set procs, so whoever can play it, gl with it. Have a nice day

Sanguinor2

jekyto wrote: »

Ye, i see nightblade and sorc main tanks wanted in every run. And just to remind you now templar's ritual is back in the game for set procs, so whoever can play it, gl with it. Have a nice day

Nightblade tank is great in stam groups. Probably every stam godslayer run had a nightblade maintank.
Sorc tank is also great in terms of survivability and group utility if you dont have other sorcs. If you dont have a magsorc dd in a mag group a sorc tank is a must have.
Wanna know what I did on my templar "tank" in vet trials? Guard the maintank and play as a healer otherwise.
The only thing a templar tank does better than other tanks is spamming rapids in trash pulls because of repentance.

Syrpynt

I'm pretty ok with tanking only random/vet dungeons, no raiding stuff. I just feel sometimes not tough enough for some encounters without a healer, unlike my tank/sorc. Most of the time I use Ebon (On warden) / Warrior Poet (Sorc/Templar) +
Spell Power Cure / Powerful Assault. Spell Power Cure now doesn't work with vines/altar that's why I decided to try Templar to give buff through Cleansing Ritual.

So you have 2 support sets. In my theory building for a tank, I always have a defensive set (buffing armor/resistances), and the orher is supporting. It sounds to me you aren't using enough defense to reduce damage. You need defense to stay alive long enough to heal through everything. If you're just spamming shields all day, that works too. But the moment they aren't max--a vet dlc boss will wipe you out.

ccfeeling

Templar tank is quiet weak if no good healer in group , I mean hard contents .

jekyto

Sadly endgame stam group dont exist, and no dd sorc in mag group? I talk about something completely different

Sanguinor2

jekyto wrote: »

Sadly endgame stam group dont exist, and no dd sorc in mag group? I talk about something completely different

They do tho? Its just that mag has been stronger in the previous few patches. With stam doing more damage this patch some groups will swap to stam and might actually play nightblade tanks since for dds you want to stack stamden and stamcro.
And last patch for example having one more magblade as opposed to 1 magsorc was more damage. So having either a sorc healer or a sorc tank made sense.

jekyto

Dude youre missing the point, is not a conversation about optimising a group. Is about how the mechanics are working for templar. If theres no templar, then templar tank is a must because of a minor sorcery, that way we can talk one week. And no, most of the trials dont like melee dd.
Basically templars have no own good cc, but theres psijic order line, also fighters guild. Shields and healings also need better understanding. The class just need to be played different and with different sets than your optimising group ones, because theres not enough space on your bars for skills, but theres nothing templar cannot do.

oscarovegren

Perfected master SnB is a must have if you want to tank on a templar

Sanguinor2

jekyto wrote: »

but theres nothing templar cannot do.

True you can do all content on templar tank not denying that. You can just do it much easier on literally everything that is not a templar. That was my inital point.

Drdeath20

You can wear selfish sets and use world skills to tank as a templar but whats the point of using a templar to tank at that point. There is just zero benefit to tank as a templar.

BXR_Lonestar

Seaviy wrote: »

Most of the time before I was tanking on the Warden, recently leveled up my Sorc and Templar tank during event to try something new.

Sorс is quite interesting, despite the weak utility for the group, but has access to quite powerful heals: Clannfear, fantastic Dark Deal (15k+ crit heals, and this ability is not even a scale of HP) and passive heals with crits via Surge. And the gameplay itself is quite fun.

The Templar has its own set of tools for the group, but in terms of self-heals, it's a kinda disaster. Cleansing Ritual really good ability but it gives only slow heals over time. Bosses on some encounters and numerous trash mobs simply do not allow you to keep up normally compared to any of the other classes. Of the options there is still Vigor and Honor the Dead, but they are quite demanding in terms of stamina/mana. Even when leveling and questing in the world I started to notice that sometimes I sag on HP.

The only ability I noticed scale of HP is Sun Shield, but it doesn't give the same sustain as how other abilities which scale of hp of other classes (it would be great to see any changes in this ability, for example, heal at the end of the shield, instead of dealing damage).

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, are there any options how to improve the situation with self-heals?

Templar tanks are awesome in certain content and fantastic for an offtank role, but you have to build for it. My templar tank has awesome self-heals, but that is because I've stacked max magika rather than stamina (24 points into Magika, sets/glyphs emphasize max magika). He has around 35K health and 30-33k magika, depending on what armor sets I wear. For 4 man content, I've been running Ebon and Spell Power Cure.

The max magika and spell damage bonuses allow me to have great group and self heals, but admittedly, all my abilities are Magika oriented, meaning I'm not using a leash. Instead, I use time stop from the psijic skill line for crowd control.

Stamina is an issue, as I only have anywhere between 15-17K stamina, but this is the reason why I'm an Argonian - I use home made tri-pots and get all my stamina back. This, plus the rune focus morph that grants stamina recovery, plus timely heavy attacks help me manage with the stamina I have.

More difficult to play than a DK tank? Sure. Is it a top-tier tank? No. But in certain roles and in certain situations, it really does shine.

Athan1

Because of how appealing Magplar builds are, ZOS is trying to give as little incentive as possible for people to choose Templars. Templars are excellent healers and good DPS, so if they also made great tanks, they'd end up being overused.

The main difference of a tankplar is that it's basically a tanky healer. That's how this class is meant to be played. It allows the group to run 3 DD 1 heal-tank hybrid. Easy content doesn't require a tank anyway.

The main misconception is that players try to apply other tank builds on a Templar. Tankplars are not meant to be stamina (that's like one of the worst set ups for this class because it has almost no stamina or tanking skills), but instead magicka.

Just build for a magplar healer, wear heavy armor and equip a taunt and major breach debuff. For harder content, add silver leash and CC skills. Keep (off)healing your group and feeding them shards/orbs while placing your holy rituals/runes.

Wardens can achieve a similar role, but its heals are weaker and they don't get the cleanse.

Drdeath20

Athan1 wrote: »

Because of how appealing Magplar builds are, ZOS is trying to give as little incentive as possible for people to choose Templars. Templars are excellent healers and good DPS, so if they also made great tanks, they'd end up being overused.

The main difference of a tankplar is that it's basically a tanky healer. That's how this class is meant to be played. It allows the group to run 3 DD 1 heal-tank hybrid. Easy content doesn't require a tank anyway.

The main misconception is that players try to apply other tank builds on a Templar. Tankplars are not meant to be stamina (that's like one of the worst set ups for this class because it has almost no stamina or tanking skills), but instead magicka.

Just build for a magplar healer, wear heavy armor and equip a taunt and major breach debuff. For harder content, add silver leash and CC skills. Keep (off)healing your group and feeding them shards/orbs while placing your holy rituals/runes.

Wardens can achieve a similar role, but its heals are weaker and they don't get the cleanse.

Theres tough content that puts a tremendous amount of strain on even the best dk tanks and is near impossible to do with more than 1 templar in your group let alone for it to be a tank.

Alot of content just requires smart positioning and knowing the difference of when to block, when to dodgeroll and when to just eat it. Nobody questions that but going for titles/mounts/achievements its impossible to get some of them as a templar tank. Getting a no death in vka requires the dps buffs that from tank sets but most of the trash mobs require both the tanks to be seperated and sometimes on an island with heavy duty adds. Vka is not a tough dungeon to complete and can be tanked by a templar but its improbable for any to get a no death with a templar tank.

Btw dont even get me started on templar damage dealers bcz i have created 50 threads and ~40 of them are about why templar damage dealers have an enormous drop off in power in the field vs what they show on the test dummy. It goes beyond anecdotal...i digress....

Soo as everyone has stated previously, you can tank most content as a templar but tanking on a templar is just wearing selfish sets and world skills with very little unique templar power involved. Every other class brings something uniquely powerful from their class toolkit.

Finally, you claim that templars are good healers, good damage dealers (and while i contest this i will for arguments sake go along with it) so they should not be good tanks as some sort of balance argument. Have you ever heard of wardens or sorcerers? Wardens are the best healers, great tanks and equal damage dealers to templars. Sorcerers are powerful on all fronts too.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

I first ever learned to tank on a Templar, and have continued to improve with him over time to now being able to tank vet trials, vet dungeon hardmodes, etc. I simply love the survivability mine has, and I rarely ever need to actually panic heal; so the lack of health based heal has never bothered me. Templars have been and always will be my favourite tanks, healers, and dds, but I'm partial to them, lol. I never thought they were difficult because that's what I learned on. So I suppose perspective and learning experiences factor in a great deal into your thoughts on them as tanks.