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Spoilers for the Reach.

Aptonoth
Aptonoth
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Is the dark heart a sithis artifact?
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    no, it is Namira's artifact.
    Edit: I made an article in UESP for anyone interested https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dark_Heart, but its a work in progress and contains spoilers.
    Edited by Aliyavana on November 10, 2020 4:39AM
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    no, it is Namira's artifact.

    Are you sure every bit of text implies its sithis. Only the witches claim its namira. Its described as being beyond oblivion and from the void in all text. Also if its naira why hasn't she taunted us? Every other description prince when caut makes it clear its them. Even the vampire girl said she used the naira prophecy to manipulate the ghost tribe into helping the vampirss. Doesnt sound deadric to me. I'm like 75% sure its sithis.
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    no, it is Namira's artifact.

    Are you sure every bit of text implies its sithis. Only the witches claim its namira. Its described as being beyond oblivion and from the void in all text. Also if its naira why hasn't she taunted us? Every other description prince when caut makes it clear its them. Even the vampire girl said she used the naira prophecy to manipulate the ghost tribe into helping the vampirss. Doesnt sound deadric to me. I'm like 75% sure its sithis.

    Its related to Namira. Sithis is not mentioned at all in this DLC. The Dark Heart corrupts people into shades which is related to Namira's void energy. The Dark Heart is stated to be related to Namira. Sithis does not hold a monopoly over the void. "According to Reach myths, Lorkh convinced the Spirit Queen, Namira, to grant him a place in the infinite void where he could create a realm for wayward spirits. Rather than a vibrant paradise, Lorkh created a hard and painful place—a realm that taught through suffering. "

    What does the Prophecy of the Dark Heart actually say?
    "The full telling requires hours. We don't have time for that, so I'll be brief.
    An ancient darkness sleeps beneath the Reach. At the end of days it will awaken, covering the land in shadow and devouring all. Only Namira's faithful will be spared."

    "I already feel my strength returning. It's the Dark Heart. Like the Ghostsong witches of old, I feel its power stirring within me. I hear the whispering of Namira.
    The Spirit Queen is with me. I won't die in this place."

    "Belain defied a natural death, as all vampires do. Using Namira's energy like that, it was an affront. I am … happy to have done my part."

    These are just some examples.

    Others aside from text:

    Nighthollow vampires use Namira's Bile skin to show their corruption from the Dark Heart

    Voidmothers and shades are created using Namira's void energy, which the Dark Heart does
    Edited by Aliyavana on November 4, 2020 10:45AM
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Also namira has communicated with past players characters from main games about quests ect. Why would she suddenly not talk when she loves talking like all the deadric princes in past games. Its totally a sithis artifact un,ess she appears in the last scene of the final quest which I can't play due to a bug.
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    no, it is Namira's artifact.

    Are you sure every bit of text implies its sithis. Only the witches claim its namira. Its described as being beyond oblivion and from the void in all text. Also if its naira why hasn't she taunted us? Every other description prince when caut makes it clear its them. Even the vampire girl said she used the naira prophecy to manipulate the ghost tribe into helping the vampirss. Doesnt sound deadric to me. I'm like 75% sure its sithis.

    Its related to Namira. Sithis is not mentioned at all in this DLC. The Dark Heart corrupts people into shades which is related to Namira's void energy. The Dark Heart is stated to be related to Namira. Sithis does not hold a monopoly over the void.

    What does the Prophecy of the Dark Heart actually say?
    "The full telling requires hours. We don't have time for that, so I'll be brief.
    An ancient darkness sleeps beneath the Reach. At the end of days it will awaken, covering the land in shadow and devouring all. Only Namira's faithful will be spared."

    "I already feel my strength returning. It's the Dark Heart. Like the Ghostsong witches of old, I feel its power stirring within me. I hear the whispering of Namira.
    The Spirit Queen is with me. I won't die in this place."

    "Belain defied a natural death, as all vampires do. Using Namira's energy like that, it was an affront. I am … happy to have done my part."

    These are just some examples.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Namira nothing in there says anything about void energy. I think we have to face the facts this is a sithis or void artifact. It has next to nothing to do with namira. Namiras realm is https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Scuttling_Void it has nothing to do with the normal void. Namira would make an appearance and multiple times the void heart is said to be from beyond oblivion and completely unnatural. If it was namiras void it would be said. The shades here don't resemble dro Mothra either like they should.
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Also namira has communicated with past players characters from main games about quests ect. Why would she suddenly not talk when she loves talking like all the deadric princes in past games. Its totally a sithis artifact un,ess she appears in the last scene of the final quest which I can't play due to a bug.

    I mean you can go ahead and ignore evidence to fit your headcanon, but it is a Namiran artifact. GL finding a mention of Sithis this DLC when Namira is the one that is attributed to it.

    Don't forget sithis is not the voids name. Its just the argonians name for it. The void is simply the void. Also it looks like a black hole one would find in a void. Also the only people who claim its namira is one lied to and manipulated person and the other believing her sister. Namirais deadric prince of decay not void teleporttion and void stuff. It's funny but the time traveler from earlier in the year might have been an imperial mananaut. One who travels the void thedwarves are obsessed with stars why would they want a namira artifact?
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Also namira has communicated with past players characters from main games about quests ect. Why would she suddenly not talk when she loves talking like all the deadric princes in past games. Its totally a sithis artifact un,ess she appears in the last scene of the final quest which I can't play due to a bug.

    I mean you can go ahead and ignore evidence to fit your headcanon, but it is a Namiran artifact. GL finding a mention of Sithis this DLC when Namira is the one that is attributed to it.
    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    no, it is Namira's artifact.

    Are you sure every bit of text implies its sithis. Only the witches claim its namira. Its described as being beyond oblivion and from the void in all text. Also if its naira why hasn't she taunted us? Every other description prince when caut makes it clear its them. Even the vampire girl said she used the naira prophecy to manipulate the ghost tribe into helping the vampirss. Doesnt sound deadric to me. I'm like 75% sure its sithis.

    Its related to Namira. Sithis is not mentioned at all in this DLC. The Dark Heart corrupts people into shades which is related to Namira's void energy. The Dark Heart is stated to be related to Namira. Sithis does not hold a monopoly over the void.

    What does the Prophecy of the Dark Heart actually say?
    "The full telling requires hours. We don't have time for that, so I'll be brief.
    An ancient darkness sleeps beneath the Reach. At the end of days it will awaken, covering the land in shadow and devouring all. Only Namira's faithful will be spared."

    "I already feel my strength returning. It's the Dark Heart. Like the Ghostsong witches of old, I feel its power stirring within me. I hear the whispering of Namira.
    The Spirit Queen is with me. I won't die in this place."

    "Belain defied a natural death, as all vampires do. Using Namira's energy like that, it was an affront. I am … happy to have done my part."

    These are just some examples.

    https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Namira nothing in there says anything about void energy. I think we have to face the facts this is a sithis or void artifact. It has next to nothing to do with namira. Namiras realm is https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Scuttling_Void it has nothing to do with the normal void. Namira would make an appearance and multiple times the void heart is said to be from beyond oblivion and completely unnatural. If it was namiras void it would be said. The shades here don't resemble dro Mothra either like they should.

    The fact that you are using Fandom over UESP and telling me to "face the facts" tells me what I need to know. There is no further reason to respond.

    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Scuttling_Void# doesn't look like namira to me. Maybe you should do some reading?
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Servants Edit

    A dro-m'Athra
    Dremora have been seen serving Namira.[52] Among Namira's servants, the dro-m'Athra are the most unique. The Dro-m'Athra are a very dangerous and seductive reflection of the Khajiit. They are Khajiiti individuals who become corrupted in life, resulting in their souls being claimed by Namiira. Upon death these souls are ultimately lost to the Daedric Prince.

    The dro-m'Athra speak of anguish and despair. They seek to cause pain and drag others into the Great Darkness so they may share in the dro-m'Athra's suffering.[59][60] The darkness within the dro-m'Athra drives them to harm others; to unleash their hatred and pain upon True Cats, and force them to hear Namiira's will.[45]

    Some of Namiira's most dangerous servants are liars: those who sow the seeds of doubt and attempt to turn mortals against each other.[53] Even more dangerous are those who do not know that they are Bent. These are the souls whom Namiira tricks into joining her in the Darkness by playing on their fears, grief and doubts. If Namiira promises sanctuary to one who is hurt, and that individual is convinced that dragging their loved one to the Great Darkness would end their loved one's suffering, nothing would stop them from trying to bring that person into Namiira's grasp.

    We didn't see a single dremora or anything. The one good witch describes the dark heart as completely unnatural. Namira isn't unnatural to the reach people. The girl vampire says she manipulated them to think namiras prophecy was happening in an in game note. Why would namira have to lie about her own prophecy if these are her servants and its her artifact she would just tell them. Also no deadra anywhere.
  • TheynT
    TheynT
    The Dark Heart is Lorkhans second heart, created when Sithis entered Lorkhans first heart and realized he was Namiira.
    At least thats how the Khajiiti mythology goes which has proven rather accurate in the past.

    So yesn't. It's not really an artifact of Sithis, but of Nami(i)ra, a spirit that was created when Sithis entered Lorkhan.

    The void ghosts we see in the newest dlc are directly connected to Namira, which we get told in one of the main quests. In the last bits of the main quest we also get told that Namira has control over the heart as she tethers Arana to it.

    There is also this mural of her holding what appears to be said dark heart:
    9z9mlnq91gtl.png

    EDIT:
    Something more to read in:
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sithis_(book)
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Words_of_Clan_Mother_Ahnissi
    https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dark_Spirits
    Namira is also called the Void here.
    Edited by TheynT on November 4, 2020 11:05AM
    660CP
    Characters
    Aventus Tienni, 50, Sorcerer Magicka DPS/Heal

    Ingame: @T_Sturmfaust | EU | PC

    Member of Cidhna Mine.
  • Aliyavana
    Aliyavana
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    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Servants Edit

    A dro-m'Athra
    Dremora have been seen serving Namira.[52] Among Namira's servants, the dro-m'Athra are the most unique. The Dro-m'Athra are a very dangerous and seductive reflection of the Khajiit. They are Khajiiti individuals who become corrupted in life, resulting in their souls being claimed by Namiira. Upon death these souls are ultimately lost to the Daedric Prince.

    The dro-m'Athra speak of anguish and despair. They seek to cause pain and drag others into the Great Darkness so they may share in the dro-m'Athra's suffering.[59][60] The darkness within the dro-m'Athra drives them to harm others; to unleash their hatred and pain upon True Cats, and force them to hear Namiira's will.[45]

    Some of Namiira's most dangerous servants are liars: those who sow the seeds of doubt and attempt to turn mortals against each other.[53] Even more dangerous are those who do not know that they are Bent. These are the souls whom Namiira tricks into joining her in the Darkness by playing on their fears, grief and doubts. If Namiira promises sanctuary to one who is hurt, and that individual is convinced that dragging their loved one to the Great Darkness would end their loved one's suffering, nothing would stop them from trying to bring that person into Namiira's grasp.

    We didn't see a single dremora or anything. The one good witch describes the dark heart as completely unnatural. Namira isn't unnatural to the reach people. The girl vampire says she manipulated them to think namiras prophecy was happening in an in game note. Why would namira have to lie about her own prophecy if these are her servants and its her artifact she would just tell them. Also no deadra anywhere.

    I know what the quoted text says, I wrote most of it.

    For context, Lady Belain's clan were starving because they switched from feeding on mortals to relying on the power of the Dark Heart which eventually started to wane. As a result, she visited the Ghostsong Clan to learn of their prophecy and manipulated Nathari to interpret it literally by sacrificing her clan to feed the Dark Heart to power it again so she can feed again. Arana believes that the prophecy is real, but she believes that it is not to be interpreted literally as she takes the dark rituals of human sacrifices as inhumane, and notes that the Ghostsong Clan turned away from it, until Nathari decided to sacrifice humans again, and sacrificed many of her clan.

    Arana says: "the Dark Heart exists. Death feeds it and only sacrifice will awaken it to share its power with those that believe. Dark allusions like that.
    Nathari believes the prophecy speaks a literal truth. Maybe she's right, but it's still wrong."

    You see she's open to Nathari's interpretation of the prophecy, but even if it was interpreted literally, its still wrong to perform it.

    Namira didn't lie, the prophecy was just up to interpretation:
    "Yes, but Ghostsong witches have argued about the nature of the Heart for generations. Some believe the prophecy is symbolic. There's darkness in every mortal heart. That's my view.
    Others believe the prophecy is meant to be taken literally."

    We see that Nathari was able to power up the heart and become a Voidmother from carrying out her literal interpretation, but Arana's interpretation was likely the most correct since Namira was directly talking to her.
    Edited by Aliyavana on November 4, 2020 11:01AM
  • Aptonoth
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    Okay it all makes a lot of sense why its such a strange looking visual style now compared to what we usually see of Namira. Thanks loremasters for teaching me.
  • Aptonoth
    Aptonoth
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    Aliyavana wrote: »
    Aptonoth wrote: »
    Servants Edit

    A dro-m'Athra
    Dremora have been seen serving Namira.[52] Among Namira's servants, the dro-m'Athra are the most unique. The Dro-m'Athra are a very dangerous and seductive reflection of the Khajiit. They are Khajiiti individuals who become corrupted in life, resulting in their souls being claimed by Namiira. Upon death these souls are ultimately lost to the Daedric Prince.

    The dro-m'Athra speak of anguish and despair. They seek to cause pain and drag others into the Great Darkness so they may share in the dro-m'Athra's suffering.[59][60] The darkness within the dro-m'Athra drives them to harm others; to unleash their hatred and pain upon True Cats, and force them to hear Namiira's will.[45]

    Some of Namiira's most dangerous servants are liars: those who sow the seeds of doubt and attempt to turn mortals against each other.[53] Even more dangerous are those who do not know that they are Bent. These are the souls whom Namiira tricks into joining her in the Darkness by playing on their fears, grief and doubts. If Namiira promises sanctuary to one who is hurt, and that individual is convinced that dragging their loved one to the Great Darkness would end their loved one's suffering, nothing would stop them from trying to bring that person into Namiira's grasp.

    We didn't see a single dremora or anything. The one good witch describes the dark heart as completely unnatural. Namira isn't unnatural to the reach people. The girl vampire says she manipulated them to think namiras prophecy was happening in an in game note. Why would namira have to lie about her own prophecy if these are her servants and its her artifact she would just tell them. Also no deadra anywhere.

    I know what the quoted text says, I wrote most of it.

    For context, Lady Belain's clan were starving because they switched from feeding on mortals to relying on the power of the Dark Heart which eventually started to wane. As a result, she visited the Ghostsong Clan to learn of their prophecy and manipulated Nathari to interpret it literally by sacrificing her clan to feed the Dark Heart to power it again so she can feed again. Arana believes that the prophecy is real, but she believes that it is not to be interpreted literally as she takes the dark rituals of human sacrifices as inhumane, and notes that the Ghostsong Clan turned away from it, until Nathari decided to sacrifice humans again, and sacrificed many of her clan.

    Arana says: "the Dark Heart exists. Death feeds it and only sacrifice will awaken it to share its power with those that believe. Dark allusions like that.
    Nathari believes the prophecy speaks a literal truth. Maybe she's right, but it's still wrong."

    You see she's open to Nathari's interpretation of the prophecy, but even if it was interpreted literally, its still wrong to perform it.

    Namira didn't lie, the prophecy was just up to interpretation:
    "Yes, but Ghostsong witches have argued about the nature of the Heart for generations. Some believe the prophecy is symbolic. There's darkness in every mortal heart. That's my view.
    Others believe the prophecy is meant to be taken literally."

    We see that Nathari was able to power up the heart and become a Voidmother from carrying out her literal interpretation, but Arana's interpretation was likely the most correct since Namira was directly talking to her.

    In that case makes me wonder what an artifact of the true void would look like then. I know its questionable if Sithis is a real god or not but certainly many seem to think so in particular the Argonians. I hope in the future of black marsh expansion they not only explore the hist but its relation to Sithis in more depth.
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    @Aliyavana, that was really awesome :D:
    Aliyavana wrote: »
    I know what the quoted text says, I wrote most of it.
  • PrayingSeraph
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    It's Namira based, not Sithis. As stated above, Sithis does not have a monopoly on the void. In fact, many TES deities lack a monopoly on their respective theme. Look how many dark daedric princes there are...
  • Thevampirenight
    Thevampirenight
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    Basically the Heart of Lorkhaj or Lorkh has basis for the Khajiit.
    So its like the Heart of Lorkhan, Though since Khajiit have this unique lore behind this heart that other cultures other thne the reach may have. There is a very good chance its the Dark Heart of Lorkhaj. One of the Load Screens even says its the dark heart of Lorkh. Meaning its basically the same artifact as mentioned in Khajiiti lore.
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Aliyavana
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    And, I have now created a lore article for it. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dark_Heart It is a work in progress however
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Sooo.. I am wondering , and ask in this Spoiler thread, if any while doing the Awakening Darkness quest, when first entering the Ritual Caravan, standing for minutes just inside the door before venturing further in, did hear a whisper, a voice along the lines of wishing to just want to rest- to be left alone.. and would this have been the whispers of the Dark Heart when first being stirred.

    Edited by Eporem on November 11, 2020 1:39PM
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