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Reachmen are too cuddly

LADYKiLLER
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idk if I'm alone in this, but I'm kind of disappointed by the weird whitewashing of Reachmen behaviours now that we're in the Reach. The entire game we've encountered Reach clans like the Crow-Wives who are led by hagravens, or the Gravesinger, Angof. Then it's suggested that what we know is all propaganda? lol. I understand Markarth, and definitely think the idea of an asserted power within the Reach through their ties to the Empire is interesting, but overall I feel like all the experiences I've had with the Reachmen so far are like an attempt to negate this:

"The observed Reachmen religion centers around the practice violent rites. Such rituals include flagellation, scarring, live burnings, blood bathing, dismemberment and possibly cannibalism, with some clans even being known to sacrifice children by cutting out their still-beating heart. Werewolves and other such creatures are highly praised by Reachmen, being perceived as a blessing from Hircine rather than a curse. Reachmen shamans often practice rituals with Hagravens in order to master certain nature magics, with some, known as Gravesingers, dabbling in Necromancy."

Where's the crazy dark Reachmen we've come to know and love? I was expecting an expedition into the Reach that was going to be dangerous and met with disdain from what few locals didn't try to kill me outright. Instead I've been told I've been "brought by the spirits" and welcomed.
  • Aliyavana
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    Its better than the "all reachmen are bad and savage" angle that has been overplayed on them. We see that some reachmen are tolerant of outside presence, while others will attack travelers on sight, or even other reachmen. I really hated to see Reachmen as villians.
    Edited by Aliyavana on November 4, 2020 9:17AM
  • colossalvoids
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    Yeah had a feeling that instead of the wild Reach i was trapped in Netflix soap opera. But it's the way eso is now especially looking at recent dlc packs so not much to do here.
  • Daystiny
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    It's just like the Dominion, Covenant, Pact forces we encounter in the main quests, who are all really evil enemies in war doing disgusting things .... and when you meet them on the friendly side, they are mostly OK people.
  • kaisernick
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    I find it funny that they didnt embrace the lore and allow your to turn into a WW in Markarth with no penilty.
  • Nairinhe
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    kaisernick wrote: »
    I find it funny that they didnt embrace the lore and allow your to turn into a WW in Markarth with no penilty.

    Hard to embrace the lore when your backside is embraced by flames of the Deadlands deadline
  • Tryxus
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    After learning who the VA of Ard Caddach is, I suddenly found him to be real cuddly... :3

    Anyways, while the Reachmen are a barbaric, Daedra-worshipping people that we have encountered many times as enemies in High Rock and Skyrim, there have also been several instances (both in Skyrim and ESO) where they ended up trusting outsiders or even befriending them if they heard them out and helped them.

    And there are still dark practices and crazy Reachmen within the zone: clan feuds, Briarheart rituals, Daedra worship, ritual sacrifices,...
    "The Oak's Promise: stand strong, stay true, and shelter all"
    Tryxus of the Undying Song - Warden - PC/EU/DC
  • Thevampirenight
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    Tryxus wrote: »
    After learning who the VA of Ard Caddach is, I suddenly found him to be real cuddly... :3

    Anyways, while the Reachmen are a barbaric, Daedra-worshipping people that we have encountered many times as enemies in High Rock and Skyrim, there have also been several instances (both in Skyrim and ESO) where they ended up trusting outsiders or even befriending them if they heard them out and helped them.

    And there are still dark practices and crazy Reachmen within the zone: clan feuds, Briarheart rituals, Daedra worship, ritual sacrifices,...

    After hearing the voice actor, I actually heard it with one of the npcs in the keep that had the imperial voice sounding dialogue from Oblivion mentioned it on discord this was back during the pts and then was told that he voices the Ard and saw that and I instantly liked the character. Anyone voiced by Wes Johnson is bound to be a great npc. Since he's such an amazing voice talent.
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    I'm not disappointed at all, OP. Moreover, I'm grateful to the developers for they have finally developed the lore of the Reachfolk's society, the entire picture we had to construct ourselves before it by using our logic and the knowledge of socio-economic development folk of the real life societies we were taught in schools. The Reachfolk's society is an ordinary tamrielic society as all the other we have been aware of all these years. Yes, they were depicted the way you have described it, OP, but the lack of lore should not have confused you on what principles their society is based on. The developers are not stupid people - creating any society in the game they try to make it's appearance logical and credible to the players, and thus they have to use certain laws of social establishment and development present IRL. That's the thing they've actually done significantly expanding the Reachfolk's lore in this DLC. I've never believed the Reachmen were that savage only just because of the lack of certain lore - any society based only on bloodshed, sacrifices, evil, etc. can't survive as a society for long. I suppose you understand why. So, the developers made a good job inventing this new lore to fill in the blank spaces and thus making a credible picture, so we don't have to finish it's construction ourselves. And they did it really good, having implemented everything in order to make it credible.

    They showed us a society of primitive tribal communism consisting of hunters and herders who don't utilize agriculture because of the environment they live in. This environment determined their primary means of production, their technical and technological level, and the type of their economy. The type of economy defined their socio-economic formation and the socio-economic formation defined everything else we know of them - their customs, world view, beliefs, way of thinking, etc.They have no slaves, because they do not know agriculture, and each slave is an extra mouth to feed instead of a tool to multiply wealth; they have no hereditary nobility, because land is not the primary mean of production there - there is nothing a man can leave his children when he dies: no slaves, no land, and, of course, no capital, because a Khajiit would reach the Moons faster than the Reachfolk society develops to capitalism; thus they also have no state - this is something they tried to build in Markarth having received the Imperial education during the period of the Longhouse Emperors, but in order to build a state they have to create the two social classes first - slaves and their masters or feudals and their peasants. They lack both of these classes and all the power of the ard there is based on personal trust to the him and his personal authority. Their society is on the same level of development as the one of, say, the Goblins, Argonians, Dunmeri Ashlanders and Bosmer, though the constant wars along with the really poor and harsh environment and lack of resources turned them into the savages we know.

    Yes, they were able to conquer Cyrodiil, the country of a much higher level of development during the dark times of the Empire, but they've taken nothing from there in order to upgrade their own quality of life, and of course, they brought nothing with them that could improve the Empire. They took no agriculture, no masonry, no writing system (though some of the Reachmen can read and write - a skill they presume shameful), no social instituions, no metalworking (as Glurzakha, the Orcish smith of Markarth says it - "Got to admit—when I saved a Reach maid from Nords years ago, never thought I'd end up smithing here" and "Dwarfcraft and Reach tools don't compare with the hammers and tongs of Orsinium, but we work with what we're given, right?"), etc., etc. They just took the City, had some time there, and finally vanished from there leaving no cultural traces as if they've never been there at all. The ard tries to develop the society, but he has little success, because in order to do so he needs to give his people more fertile lands, metalworking and better tools, writing system, masonry, religious system and centralized church (yes, religion - not just common beliefs), develop the two social classes, construct their first state. But he does nothing of it and this is why his society will be a constant target of a much more developed societies of the Nords, Bretons and even the Orcs.

    So, I found in the new lore everything I came up to myself, the ideas I had to think and imagine myself previously. Now the new lore acknowledges everything in my own ideas regarding the Reachmen, they showed exactly the picture I imagined myself, and I'm grateful for that. The loreteam made a brilliant high quality work.
  • Eporem
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    LADYKiLLER wrote: »
    idk if I'm alone in this, but I'm kind of disappointed by the weird whitewashing of Reachmen behaviours now that we're in the Reach. The entire game we've encountered Reach clans like the Crow-Wives who are led by hagravens, or the Gravesinger, Angof. Then it's suggested that what we know is all propaganda? lol. I understand Markarth, and definitely think the idea of an asserted power within the Reach through their ties to the Empire is interesting, but overall I feel like all the experiences I've had with the Reachmen so far are like an attempt to negate this:

    "The observed Reachmen religion centers around the practice violent rites. Such rituals include flagellation, scarring, live burnings, blood bathing, dismemberment and possibly cannibalism, with some clans even being known to sacrifice children by cutting out their still-beating heart. Werewolves and other such creatures are highly praised by Reachmen, being perceived as a blessing from Hircine rather than a curse. Reachmen shamans often practice rituals with Hagravens in order to master certain nature magics, with some, known as Gravesingers, dabbling in Necromancy."

    Where's the crazy dark Reachmen we've come to know and love? I was expecting an expedition into the Reach that was going to be dangerous and met with disdain from what few locals didn't try to kill me outright. Instead I've been told I've been "brought by the spirits" and welcomed.

    They made me wish to create a Reachman type character and join them...(though this could have been because of their accents and a thought that maybe they are eso's version of Druids)

    Edited by Eporem on November 5, 2020 12:40AM
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    LADYKiLLER wrote: »
    idk if I'm alone in this, but I'm kind of disappointed by the weird whitewashing of Reachmen behaviours now that we're in the Reach. The entire game we've encountered Reach clans like the Crow-Wives who are led by hagravens, or the Gravesinger, Angof. Then it's suggested that what we know is all propaganda? lol. I understand Markarth, and definitely think the idea of an asserted power within the Reach through their ties to the Empire is interesting, but overall I feel like all the experiences I've had with the Reachmen so far are like an attempt to negate this:

    "The observed Reachmen religion centers around the practice violent rites. Such rituals include flagellation, scarring, live burnings, blood bathing, dismemberment and possibly cannibalism, with some clans even being known to sacrifice children by cutting out their still-beating heart. Werewolves and other such creatures are highly praised by Reachmen, being perceived as a blessing from Hircine rather than a curse. Reachmen shamans often practice rituals with Hagravens in order to master certain nature magics, with some, known as Gravesingers, dabbling in Necromancy."

    Where's the crazy dark Reachmen we've come to know and love? I was expecting an expedition into the Reach that was going to be dangerous and met with disdain from what few locals didn't try to kill me outright. Instead I've been told I've been "brought by the spirits" and welcomed.

    They made me wish to create a Reachman type character and join them...(though this could have been because of their accents and a thought that maybe they are eso's version of Druids)

    I had some thoughts that completing the Vateshran's Rites would allow a challenger to join the Reachfolk, but the Rites Matron says it clearly - "Although the Spiritblood do not allow outsiders within its ranks, we still recognize what you've done this day. You may travel through the Reach, confident that none may question your strength". As any tribal society, the Reachfolk is based on kinship, it's like a big family that can accept friends, but will not make an outsider a relative. Birth and marriage - that seems to be the only ways to join them. Just like the Dunmeri Ashlander tribes - even a Nerevarine cannot be accepted there, though can be granted the Hearthfriend title. Perhaps, something might be changed in the Rites Matron's dialogue lines if a Breton character completes the Rites - what if it works the same way it works for an Orc player in the Shatul Clan grounds? I'm not a Breton there, so I won't be able to check it - I just share my idea, so those who wish might do it.

    The other way for you is to start your own Reachfolk clan guild.
    First, unlike creating another Dunmeri Great House or representing the one already existing, the lore does not restrict the players to create another Reachmen clan, they are numerous - "The Reach is home to scores of different clans, each with its own character and traditions. Some clans settle in one spot and build permanent camps, while others remain nomadic. Clans fall somewhere between extended family and home village; some people in a clan are related to each other, but others adopt the clan name to mark their allegiance. New clans appear all the time, as bands of like-minded Reachfolk come together to settle new land, follow herds of game, or (in more chaotic times) take up raiding to plunder neighboring lands. As a result, clans can be surprisingly fluid, breaking up and reforming over time".
    Second, as the Rites Matron says it - "The Rites determine who may dwell in the Reach. They separate the strong from those too weak to survive in our lands. If you do not belong among our people, then you shall perish. Do you have the strength of a Reachman?". So, those who complete the Rites trial and can grant you one of the Achievements you choose to confirm it, could be accepted in your clan.
    Third, I'm not aware of any Reachmen of the Nordic, Merethic or Beastfolk origin, though I know that their society is as mixed as the Breton one. Just like the Bretons, they share the human appearance and look like typical Bretons. So, I guess, only the Bretons should be accepted to avoid certain questions of other Reachfolk of how could a lizard become a family member.

    Go on, Eporem! I already have an old friend of mine (27 years of friendship this year!) who joined the Elder Scrolls community recently, but plays an Altmer - the only Altmer I respect that much and trust in this game (well, except Neramo and some other very few folks - but I've never viewed them that high as friends). Perhaps, you'd be the only Reachman I know whom I'd respect much and would be glad to spend some time discussing various topics :).
  • Eporem
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    @Cygemai_Hlervu

    Well.....after reading of the clans you linked I am not quite sure anymore that I do wish to create a Reachfolk character :) though I do wonder if there is lore of the clan whose banner is of the Moonburst.

    5dyIUHe.jpg

    as well I like your idea of ones, if forming a Reach clan, create a trial of a sort that perspective members would have to complete to join - similar to the Vateshran Rites .
  • Supreme_Atromancer
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    While irrevocable evil has its place, it kinda gets boring when overdone. Much of the story of Tamriel is about competing perspectives, and having the Reachmen as another generic, senselessly disney-esque evil flies in the face of what the lore had already begun to hint at, at least as early as 2011.
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    I do wonder if there is lore of the clan whose banner is of the Moonburst.
    5dyIUHe.jpg

    I'm not aware of any reference of that banner to any of the particular Reach clans, Eporem, sorry :). Maybe that lore is going to be written, or a proper commentary of the devs might be given, just like they did regarding the Indoril banner - we'll see.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    Eporem wrote: »
    @Cygemai_Hlervu

    Well.....after reading of the clans you linked I am not quite sure anymore that I do wish to create a Reachfolk character :) though I do wonder if there is lore of the clan whose banner is of the Moonburst.

    5dyIUHe.jpg

    as well I like your idea of ones, if forming a Reach clan, create a trial of a sort that perspective members would have to complete to join - similar to the Vateshran Rites .

    There are banners like that in Karthwasten. The village is occupied by the Crow-Eye clan.
    PC EU
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    @Cygemai_Hlervu

    Well.....after reading of the clans you linked I am not quite sure anymore that I do wish to create a Reachfolk character :) though I do wonder if there is lore of the clan whose banner is of the Moonburst.

    5dyIUHe.jpg

    as well I like your idea of ones, if forming a Reach clan, create a trial of a sort that perspective members would have to complete to join - similar to the Vateshran Rites .

    There are banners like that in Karthwasten. The village is occupied by the Crow-Eye clan.

    That's the place I haven't been yet with a research purpose :). Thank you, @RaddlemanNumber7!
  • Eporem
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    thank you @RaddlemanNumber7 :) now I just wonder what would a Moonburst mean to this Crow-Eye clan.
  • Ratzkifal
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    I do miss that side a bit too, but there are plenty of hostile clans around that still practise that stuff, only that they are still the antagonists of the story and we don't learn much about their customs.

    Especially the Namira worship was a bit of a let down. If Namira is perfectly happy with people throwing animal bones for rituals, why are there cannibal cults around in the first place? Namira is supposed to be all about revulsion, disgust, fear of the dark and crawly stuff, the breaking of taboos and being there for the little people without actually helping them out of their misery... Now they call her "the Spirit Queen" and she rules over the void surrounding the realms of Oblivion?

    I mean, in terms of cosmic significance she's certainly gotten a promotion there but the other stuff is kind of missing here.
    Daedra are not really like the Aedra where much is left up to debate and interpretation. The daedra actually respond if you call them and will tell you exactly what they expect from you and your fellow worshippers (unless leaving you guessing is their thing). So really there shouldn't be as big of a difference between the Namira cults we are used to and the Reachmen Namira worship.
    Unless the Reachmen are actually the misguided ones. We never heard Namira say a word in the Reach while we did hear her in cannibal cult quests before so maybe the Reachmen got it all wrong.

    Also what's the Reachmen's deal with the bloodied depictions of Dibella we saw in TES5? We got no answer on that mystery even though that would be quite easy to figure out since we can just ask one now.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
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