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Angels in TES Lore

rexagamemnon
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I was hoping if anyone knows of angels or equivalent in TES lore. Whether they exist or dont, if they do are they servant to the tamrielic pantheons or they are their own separate entities belonging to no one.
  • SgtNuttzmeg
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    As far as I am aware no such thing exists. The Aedra are relatively weak compared to their Daedra counter parts so they don't really have "angelic minions."
    Legions of Mordor Core

    Cold0neFTBs
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.
    PC EU
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Hello, Agamemnon. Let's agree on definitions first. If your definition of angel is an Abrahamic one, i.e. an angel in your understanding is a spiritual being believed to act as an attendant, agent, or messenger of God, conventionally represented in human form with wings and a long robe, then no, they do not exist in TES.
    Still the "angel" as a notion exists in the lore. There are only a few references to angels in TES lore, though they all are very brief and the only definition (a complex of features immanent to the object or a phenomenon throughout the process of it's establishment and development) to an ES angel we can construct based on those references is this: an angel is a character acting as an attendant, agent, or messenger of an et'Ada or a prophet.

    References:
    The Song of Pelinal
    Volume 7
    - "Umaril was laid low, the angel face of his helm dented into an ugliness which made Pelinal laugh, [and his] unfeathered wings broken off with sword strokes delivered while Pelinal stood [frothing]... above him insulting his ancestry and anyone else that took ship from Old Ehlnofey, [which] angered the other Elvish kings and drove them to a madness of their own... [and they] fell on him [speaking] to their weapons... cutting the Pelinal into eighths while he roared in confusion [which even] the Council of Skiffs [could hear]";

    The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon Twenty-Five - "But then the light subsides, revealing the bright and terrible angel of Veloth. He is in his pre-chimerical form, demonic VEHK, gaunt and pale and beautiful, skin stretched painfully thin on bird's bones, feathered serpents encircling his arms. His wings are spread out behind him, their red and yellow ends like razors in the sun. The wispy mass of his fire hair floats as if underwater, milky in the nimbus of light that crowns his head. His presence is undeniable, the awe too much to bear.";

    The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon Thirty-Five, The Scripture of Love - "The formulas of proper Velothi magic continue in ancient tradition, but that virility is dead, by which I mean at least replaced. Truth owes its medicinal nature to the establishment of the myth of justice. Its curative properties it likewise owes to the concept of sacrifice. Princes, chiefs, and angels all subscribe to the same notion";

    Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book Two - "Maztiak, whose carcass was dragged through the streets by his own bone-walkers and whose flesh was opened on rocks thereon and those angels who loved him no longer did drink from his honeyed ichors screaming "Let all know free will and do as they will!";

    NPC saying after completing the Vaermina's Quest - "I hear (random god) sent us an angel to rid (dungeon) of that accursed lich".
  • prof-dracko
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    The Celestials might count. They're implied to be some kind of Aedric being.
  • Eporem
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    References:
    The Song of Pelinal
    Volume 7
    - "Umaril was laid low, the angel face of his helm dented into an ugliness which made Pelinal laugh, [and his] unfeathered wings broken off with sword strokes delivered while Pelinal stood [frothing]... above him insulting his ancestry and anyone else that took ship from Old Ehlnofey, [which] angered the other Elvish kings and drove them to a madness of their own... [and they] fell on him [speaking] to their weapons... cutting the Pelinal into eighths while he roared in confusion [which even] the Council of Skiffs [could hear]";

    The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon Twenty-Five - "But then the light subsides, revealing the bright and terrible angel of Veloth. He is in his pre-chimerical form, demonic VEHK, gaunt and pale and beautiful, skin stretched painfully thin on bird's bones, feathered serpents encircling his arms. His wings are spread out behind him, their red and yellow ends like razors in the sun. The wispy mass of his fire hair floats as if underwater, milky in the nimbus of light that crowns his head. His presence is undeniable, the awe too much to bear.";

    The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, Sermon Thirty-Five, The Scripture of Love - "The formulas of proper Velothi magic continue in ancient tradition, but that virility is dead, by which I mean at least replaced. Truth owes its medicinal nature to the establishment of the myth of justice. Its curative properties it likewise owes to the concept of sacrifice. Princes, chiefs, and angels all subscribe to the same notion";

    Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes Book Two - "Maztiak, whose carcass was dragged through the streets by his own bone-walkers and whose flesh was opened on rocks thereon and those angels who loved him no longer did drink from his honeyed ichors screaming "Let all know free will and do as they will!";

    NPC saying after completing the Vaermina's Quest - "I hear (random god) sent us an angel to rid (dungeon) of that accursed lich".

    Of these references would it have just been Vivec and Pelinal who wrote of defining what they saw as an angel in eso? for Pelinal, an angel face on Umaril's helmet and Vivec describing the bright and terrible angel of Veloth.

    Is this Umaril's helmet? or does this helmet show how it was when he was laid low..

    zr72WDC.jpg



    Edited by Eporem on November 4, 2020 12:08AM
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    Meridia is depicted as an angel in the game. This is the back view of her statue at Kilkreath. Her large feathered wings are unmistakable.

    MO1LObK.jpg

    I have wondered if Darien might turn out to be an actual Auroran. If he was a fallen angel that might explain some of his behaviour.

    I would discount Vekh as a reliable witness. It looks like he (or someone close to him) was on LSD. Even his brother Sil openly admits that he is a fantasist.
    PC EU
  • Xaramasa
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    Technically, the Dragons fit the role of "Angels" in the Elder Scrolls. They are children/pieces of the top god Akatosh and are capable of Tonal Architecture through their language. Many (if not most) are prone to "falling" and using their powers for what mortals consider as evil, with Alduin specifically referred to by Parthurnaax as "straying from his righteous path" as the World-Eater in favor of a World-Conquerer.

    There are also the Jills, who are female dragons that mend time and repair dragon breaks, and are probably closer to the depiction of angels as responsible for managing certain aspects of creation. These are only referenced from a Q&A with Kirkbride so it's ambiguously canon unless they are mentioned in an in-game Lorebook or dialogue.
  • PrayingSeraph
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.

    There isn't much similarities between Magnus or the Magna Ge(including Meridia) with Lucifer. Lucifer/Satan were a creation of a deity who then rebelled against said deity and fell into darkness with his cohorts, aiming to spread darkness, wickedness and strife.

    Umaril was transformed into a auroran like being. Aurorans are not at all demonic, being more so paladin or even what an angelic warrior might wear. The Meridian motif for example has feather designs incorporated into it, most likely referencing Meridia's angelic depiction. Based on dialogue and references in game on Meridia, she values light, sacredness, holiness, purity and order. If I were to quote tvtropes, she would be a "Knight Templar" like deity.
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on November 4, 2020 4:44PM
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.

    There isn't much similarities between Magnus or the Magna Ge(including Meridia) with Lucifer. Lucifer/Satan were a creation of a deity who then rebelled against said deity and fell into darkness with his cohorts, aiming to spread darkness, wickedness and strife.

    Umaril was transformed into a auroran like being. Aurorans are not at all demonic, being more so paladin or even what an angelic warrior might wear. The Meridian motif for example has feather designs incorporated into it, most likely referencing Meridia's angelic depiction. Based on dialogue and references in game on Meridia, she values light, sacredness, holiness, purity and order. If I were to quote tvtropes, she would be a "Knight Templar" like deity.

    I assume you're role playing, so I won't argue.
    PC EU
  • PrayingSeraph
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.

    There isn't much similarities between Magnus or the Magna Ge(including Meridia) with Lucifer. Lucifer/Satan were a creation of a deity who then rebelled against said deity and fell into darkness with his cohorts, aiming to spread darkness, wickedness and strife.

    Umaril was transformed into a auroran like being. Aurorans are not at all demonic, being more so paladin or even what an angelic warrior might wear. The Meridian motif for example has feather designs incorporated into it, most likely referencing Meridia's angelic depiction. Based on dialogue and references in game on Meridia, she values light, sacredness, holiness, purity and order. If I were to quote tvtropes, she would be a "Knight Templar" like deity.

    I assume you're role playing, so I won't argue.

    Huh? Nothing I said was indicating I am role playing. Comparative mythology wise, Magnus, the magna ge and Meridia are neither Luciferian nor demonic.

    As for what I said Meridia stands for, I got plenty of dialogue from Meridia, her followers and her purified/lustrated to back it. As for the reference to the Knight Templar trope, I can link you it so you understand what I am talking about with it.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar

    This trope describes Meridia perfectly. That was my point regarding the knight templar trope.
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on November 4, 2020 7:29PM
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Meridia is depicted as an angel in the game. This is the back view of her statue at Kilkreath. Her large feathered wings are unmistakable.

    MO1LObK.jpg

    I have wondered if Darien might turn out to be an actual Auroran. If he was a fallen angel that might explain some of his behaviour.

    I would discount Vekh as a reliable witness. It looks like he (or someone close to him) was on LSD. Even his brother Sil openly admits that he is a fantasist.

    It does seem Meridia depicts an angel in game, I just wonder that as a character in game, if the only reference to the word of angel and definition of an angel known in eso was made by Pelinel and Vivec, then would you still see her as such, since these definitions would be the only ones you would knew of.

    Edited by Eporem on November 5, 2020 12:27AM
  • VaranisArano
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.

    There isn't much similarities between Magnus or the Magna Ge(including Meridia) with Lucifer. Lucifer/Satan were a creation of a deity who then rebelled against said deity and fell into darkness with his cohorts, aiming to spread darkness, wickedness and strife.

    Umaril was transformed into a auroran like being. Aurorans are not at all demonic, being more so paladin or even what an angelic warrior might wear. The Meridian motif for example has feather designs incorporated into it, most likely referencing Meridia's angelic depiction. Based on dialogue and references in game on Meridia, she values light, sacredness, holiness, purity and order. If I were to quote tvtropes, she would be a "Knight Templar" like deity.

    I assume you're role playing, so I won't argue.

    Huh? Nothing I said was indicating I am role playing. Comparative mythology wise, Magnus, the magna ge and Meridia are neither Luciferian nor demonic.

    As for what I said Meridia stands for, I got plenty of dialogue from Meridia, her followers and her purified/lustrated to back it. As for the reference to the Knight Templar trope, I can link you it so you understand what I am talking about with it.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar

    This trope describes Meridia perfectly. That was my point regarding the knight templar trope.

    I think demonic/angelic is something that maps very poorly in the Elder Scrolls universe, and find it far more useful to talk about Daedric/Aedric.

    While she's Magne Ge (Aedric), she was also cast out of Aetherius and took up the mantle of a Daedric Prince, creating the Colored Rooms for herself out of Oblivion. Between the Main Quest and Summerset, we can confirm that she is both a Daedric Prince AND her artifacts like Dawnbreaker still have some Aedric energy as well as being Daedric Artifacts.

    Her servants, the Aurorans and the Golden Saints, are likewise Daedra, and always have been in the games - regardless of what they look like.


    So trying to discuss demonic/angelic runs into a lot of problems with Meridia and her people.
    If all you care about is appearance? Sure, on the face of it, she looks like popular depictions of angels.
    If you want powerful Lawful Good winged beings? Maybe she qualifies, depending on how you feel about her daedric servants and champion Umaril slaughtering Aedric priests in TES IV.


    But for anyone using Aedric = divine/angelic and Daedric = demonic as their standard? Meridia is pretty clearly in the fallen Aedra, now Daedra column, and her servants the Aurorans would be clearly Daedra. Who's going to hold that opinion in-universe? The Vigilants of Stendarr, most likely.
    Edited by VaranisArano on November 5, 2020 1:04AM
  • PrayingSeraph
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.

    There isn't much similarities between Magnus or the Magna Ge(including Meridia) with Lucifer. Lucifer/Satan were a creation of a deity who then rebelled against said deity and fell into darkness with his cohorts, aiming to spread darkness, wickedness and strife.

    Umaril was transformed into a auroran like being. Aurorans are not at all demonic, being more so paladin or even what an angelic warrior might wear. The Meridian motif for example has feather designs incorporated into it, most likely referencing Meridia's angelic depiction. Based on dialogue and references in game on Meridia, she values light, sacredness, holiness, purity and order. If I were to quote tvtropes, she would be a "Knight Templar" like deity.

    I assume you're role playing, so I won't argue.

    Huh? Nothing I said was indicating I am role playing. Comparative mythology wise, Magnus, the magna ge and Meridia are neither Luciferian nor demonic.

    As for what I said Meridia stands for, I got plenty of dialogue from Meridia, her followers and her purified/lustrated to back it. As for the reference to the Knight Templar trope, I can link you it so you understand what I am talking about with it.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar

    This trope describes Meridia perfectly. That was my point regarding the knight templar trope.

    I think demonic/angelic is something that maps very poorly in the Elder Scrolls universe, and find it far more useful to talk about Daedric/Aedric.

    While she's Magne Ge (Aedric), she was also cast out of Aetherius and took up the mantle of a Daedric Prince, creating the Colored Rooms for herself out of Oblivion. Between the Main Quest and Summerset, we can confirm that she is both a Daedric Prince AND her artifacts like Dawnbreaker still have some Aedric energy as well as being Daedric Artifacts.

    Her servants, the Aurorans and the Golden Saints, are likewise Daedra, and always have been in the games - regardless of what they look like.


    So trying to discuss demonic/angelic runs into a lot of problems with Meridia and her people.
    If all you care about is appearance? Sure, on the face of it, she looks like popular depictions of angels.
    If you want powerful Lawful Good winged beings? Maybe she qualifies, depending on how you feel about her daedric servants and champion Umaril slaughtering Aedric priests in TES IV.


    But for anyone using Aedric = divine/angelic and Daedric = demonic as their standard? Meridia is pretty clearly in the fallen Aedra, now Daedra column, and her servants the Aurorans would be clearly Daedra. Who's going to hold that opinion in-universe? The Vigilants of Stendarr, most likely.

    Oh I agree that such a conclusion may come up if one does indeed look at it from a Aedra=angel/divine Daedra=demon. But that's a very inaccurate way of looking at TES mythology. Comparitive mythology wise, it does not work. Even the term Aedra and Daedra really many little, as its simply our-ancestor and not-our-ancestor.

    Daedric Princes as a category sometimes dont even share key characteristics. For example, while most Daedric Princes are Padomaic, a few are Anuic like Meridia, Malacath(most likely), Peryite(god of natural order) and Jyggalag(god of absolute order). Comparative mythology wise regarding Daedra, you have the actual demonic Princes like Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon, the lovecraftian Hermaeus Mora, the pagan inspired princes like Hircine(Cernnunos) and the angelic Meridia. Worth noting however is that while modern TES games have depicted Meridia and her style as angelic, she was originally not depicted like this in her earliest TES game depictions. It's a welcome change though as it makes her look so much more interesting.

    Comparative mythology wise, only some Aedra share similarities to angels. Others most certainly are not like real life angels myths, such as Dibella who's act of worship would be something a succubus would enjoy. (Obviously not saying she is based of Succubi, but rather that the aedra=angel idea would imply this false conclusion).

    In general, Meridia is largely depicted as an angelic knight templar(see trope) who values light, sacredness, purity and order. Her forces are paladin-like and she is ruthless against all she deems wicked and corrupt. The developers even decided to make her symbol a cross, literally called the "Cross of Meridia" in ESO(see library of dusk quest in coldhabour). Although she was likely created originally in earlier games to be this obscure goddess of light, the developers have seemingly expanded this depiction to be a goddess of light who is depicted as a knight templar angelic being. I'm not saying she's an actual angel of course, shes an et'ada deity, but rather I'm just talking about depiction. I am also not saying shes good or bad...its complicated with her...sure she sponsored Umaril to attack followers of the Aedra....but that was after said aedra unleashed a genocidal crusader that was Pelinal who butchered her followers...
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on November 5, 2020 3:19AM
  • VaranisArano
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    I am also not saying shes good or bad...its complicated with her...sure she sponsored Umaril to attack followers of the Aedra....but that was after said aedra unleashed a genocidal crusader that was Pelinal who butchered her followers...

    ...which was, of course, after her Ayleid followers had been grotesquely mistreating their human slaves.

    As you say, Meridia's complicated. :smiley: It's what I find fun about her, and ESO is doing a better job of leaning into that ambiguity that the Knights of the Nine DLC brought to an otherwise pretty generic Daedric Prince.

    Personally, I find her "pop culture angel" design more derivative than interesting, but to each their own.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    The "gods" worshipped in the various cults of the Divine across Tamriel don't have any individual existence. They were all merged with the Missing God (aka Lorkhan) at the end of the Dawn Era. Hence they too are missing, and that is why they are often presumed to be dead.

    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    Umaril the Unfeathered resembles a fallen angel too. Presumably "Unfeathered" because his wings changed from the feathered angelic type to featherless demonic ones. He's a big bad. He serves Meridia. He was the champion of the worst of the Ayleids, and is the chief antagonist in The Elder Scrolls IV: Knights of the Nine.

    There are also Aurorans and Golden Saints. They serve the Princes of Oblivian. They are classed as daedra. We are told by Sees-All-Colors that Aurorans are picky about who they serve, so it seems they have some measure of independence.

    There isn't much similarities between Magnus or the Magna Ge(including Meridia) with Lucifer. Lucifer/Satan were a creation of a deity who then rebelled against said deity and fell into darkness with his cohorts, aiming to spread darkness, wickedness and strife.

    Umaril was transformed into a auroran like being. Aurorans are not at all demonic, being more so paladin or even what an angelic warrior might wear. The Meridian motif for example has feather designs incorporated into it, most likely referencing Meridia's angelic depiction. Based on dialogue and references in game on Meridia, she values light, sacredness, holiness, purity and order. If I were to quote tvtropes, she would be a "Knight Templar" like deity.

    I assume you're role playing, so I won't argue.

    Huh? Nothing I said was indicating I am role playing. Comparative mythology wise, Magnus, the magna ge and Meridia are neither Luciferian nor demonic.

    As for what I said Meridia stands for, I got plenty of dialogue from Meridia, her followers and her purified/lustrated to back it. As for the reference to the Knight Templar trope, I can link you it so you understand what I am talking about with it.

    https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KnightTemplar

    This trope describes Meridia perfectly. That was my point regarding the knight templar trope.

    My mistake. I thought you were taking an unreasonably partisan position in favour of Meridia and her mortal-loathing, slave-owning, antagonistic minions.

    When I see Meridia I think Lawful Evil. Different generations I guess.

    I'm not going to explain about Lucifer. I don't think the forum mods would appreciate it. But in that regard, I will say this about Magnus...

    Magnus objected to the creation of mortals, and absconded with his followers. He created the Sun, bringing light to the world. He is one source of magic. In the now of ESO Magnus is trapped far beyond the living world. Despite that, Magnus, the Magna Ge, Meridia and the Aurorans all have their designated roles to play in Lorkhan's test.

    You might also want to take into consideration that different cultures have a different take on Magnus, e.g. he is not one of the Imperial Eight, but the Altmer have him at the centre of their temples. Different cultures have different names for Magnus. And we must not forget that not all the cultures of Tamriel made it into the now of ESO. I expect those lost cultures of ancient times had a thing or two to say about Magnus as well.
    PC EU
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    Eporem wrote: »
    Meridia is depicted as an angel in the game. This is the back view of her statue at Kilkreath. Her large feathered wings are unmistakable.

    MO1LObK.jpg

    I have wondered if Darien might turn out to be an actual Auroran. If he was a fallen angel that might explain some of his behaviour.

    I would discount Vekh as a reliable witness. It looks like he (or someone close to him) was on LSD. Even his brother Sil openly admits that he is a fantasist.

    It does seem Meridia depicts an angel in game, I just wonder that as a character in game, if the only reference to the word of angel and definition of an angel known in eso was made by Pelinel and Vivec, then would you still see her as such, since these definitions would be the only ones you would knew of.

    In game, in character, in my headcanon I do not use the concept of angel. I stick to the in-game concepts and terminology.

    The only significance of these references, as I see it, is in understanding the antecedents of TES lore. These references to angels, especially fallen angels, reveal some IRL lore the TES writers used as inspiration and source material. I find this helps in building a bigger, more coherent picture of the world they created.
    PC EU
  • PrayingSeraph
    PrayingSeraph
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    Eporem wrote: »
    Meridia is depicted as an angel in the game. This is the back view of her statue at Kilkreath. Her large feathered wings are unmistakable.

    MO1LObK.jpg

    I have wondered if Darien might turn out to be an actual Auroran. If he was a fallen angel that might explain some of his behaviour.

    I would discount Vekh as a reliable witness. It looks like he (or someone close to him) was on LSD. Even his brother Sil openly admits that he is a fantasist.

    It does seem Meridia depicts an angel in game, I just wonder that as a character in game, if the only reference to the word of angel and definition of an angel known in eso was made by Pelinel and Vivec, then would you still see her as such, since these definitions would be the only ones you would knew of.

    In game, in character, in my headcanon I do not use the concept of angel. I stick to the in-game concepts and terminology.

    The only significance of these references, as I see it, is in understanding the antecedents of TES lore. These references to angels, especially fallen angels, reveal some IRL lore the TES writers used as inspiration and source material. I find this helps in building a bigger, more coherent picture of the world they created.

    My general original point to you originally is that neither Magnus nor Magna Ge nor Meridia share much similarities with fallen angels and demons(they are largely the same thing...) in real life abrahamic mythologies. As someone who is well versed in Judeo-Christian mythology(with a decent grasp on Islamic mythology), both canonical and apocryphal, there is little to believe that the writers used fallen angels as IRL inspiration for Magnus, Magna Ge and Meridia. The mythos simply don't align that well in regards to this to believe such an inspiration. On a personal level, I have always loved the idea of angels and their fallen, hence why my username has "Seraph" in it haha :)

    There are indeed demonic deities in TES that are likely inspired by real life fallen angels/demons, atleast on surface level like Dagon and Bal, but not the beings of light that are the magna ge.
    Edited by PrayingSeraph on November 5, 2020 7:57PM
  • lyx10679
    lyx10679
    If your definition of angel is an Abrahamic one, i.e. an angel in your understanding is a spiritual being believed to act as an attendant, agent, or messenger of God, conventionally represented in human form with wings and a long robe, then no, they do not exist in TES.

    I agree with @Cygemai_Hlervu that if the definition of angel is an Abrahamic one, then there is no equivalent to one in TES. The notion of "angel" in the traditional sense come from purely a monotheistic worldview.
    The only creatures left that resemble angels are all of the fallen variety, the ones who sought to escape from Lorkhan's ascendency. Most notably Meridia and the other Magna Ge, and their boss Magnus (who has a remarkable number of similarities to Lucifer).

    I would say that "fallen variety" is still a very monotheistic worldview of TES. We also cannot relate Magnus to Lucifer/Satan since Lucifer/Satan also comes from the Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian perspective.

    If you really want to compare the Tamrielic pantheon to real world traditions, I would suggest looking at polytheistic systems such as Hinduism, the West African Vodun religion, or Norse mythology. In my honest opinion, I think any of those religious traditions influenced the Tamrielic pantheon though not necessarily as direct counterparts. If you want to look at TES from an Abrahamic/Judeo-Christian, then possibly "angels" would be closer to Aurorans. However since TES is using a "polytheistic" system to describe their pantheon, then the notion of "good" and "evil" is subjective to the player (i.e. Meridia is "good" and Molag Bal is "evil") and their own worldview.
    Edited by lyx10679 on December 6, 2020 11:41PM
    Platform: PC/NA - CP 500+

    Character Roster:
    Ebonheart Pact: Kelvinia Telvanni - Dunmer Mag DK, Arenwe Direnni - Altmer Magsorc
    Aldmeri Dominion: Shalana-el-Kemel - Khajit Stamblade, Ithanarth Woodwalker - Bosmer Stam Warden
    Daggerfall Covenant: Reman Cyrolius Septim - Imperial Stamplar, Marcel Motierre - Breton Mag Necromancer
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