EU PC healthstack heavyarmor meta

Noctus

the dominating ppl in bg are allways the ones going for healthstacking + proc heavy armor and dawnbreaker subteranean assault combo.(its not skill to wait for ur ult and land that) it has been the most effective playstyle for a long time now.

everything that does dmg or heal should scale of maxmagicka or stamina and spelldmg weapondmg on every set.

its not worth atm going for light armor glasscannon build especially when u go for stat build !!!!!!! this is a balancing problem.

healthbased healing needs to be nerfed. skills should scale more of stats. procs should also scale on maxresource and stat.

Firstmep

Its kinda funny seeing 45k hp wardens being top dmg and top kda most of the time.

Its almost as if running the most broken sets on the most broken class has the most broken results

Wing

need the raw health for dealing with the proc meta, and malacath gives you solid damage as your dumping crit anyway, and double dips by ignoring impen and crit resist that has always been a massive source of damage mitigation in pvp.

it all just kind of works well together to define a meta really.

Zeromaz

The excuse that high health players do so because of proc sets or gankers is valid but... its an excuse for most. People do it because its a more fool proof way to fight, allowing for mistakes and a walk down easy street. The majority of people will always take the easiest approach. Thats why you see people reroll classes because their current one isn’t the easy mindless playstyle. Everyone wants that low effort high paying game play.

Xeniph

Lets be honest here,

The game is in no way designed around no-CP or BG's. Which is why everything is OP there.

They need to remove the no-CP option all together, imo.

Waffennacht

Xeniph wrote: »

Lets be honest here,

The game is in no way designed around no-CP or BG's. Which is why everything is OP there.

They need to remove the no-CP option all together, imo.

I personally did not mind the CP BGs however a lot of people hated it

Noctus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Xeniph wrote: »

Lets be honest here,

The game is in no way designed around no-CP or BG's. Which is why everything is OP there.

They need to remove the no-CP option all together, imo.

I personally did not mind the CP BGs however a lot of people hated it

becouse of the stalemate problem. defense > offense. in no cp its not as bad but in cp pvp ur rly forced to play a certain way.
these days it got worse in nocp. i remember a time when i could pick up any set and do fine in bg.

but the experience is still superior to cp pvp for now. especially the use of resources and set combinations food mundus rly makes an impact on nocp.

cp pvp is just rly boring especially when 2 exp players meet.

the problem i talk about here is actually worse in cp pvp.

OlumoGarbag

If they would nerf procsets and mala for no cp we would have a really good balance there this patch with stamcro and stamden being slightly nerfed. The problem is the hp based heals which reward going for high health. We desperatly need a countermechanic to high health. Something like: all proc sets scale from 25%dmg to 100% dmg scaled on a enemy health scale of 15k to 50k health with 15k being 25% and 50k health being full proc set dmg

GrigorijMalahevich

You are playing a gank magblade with 3 procs and complaining about builds that you can't oneshot or am I missing something?

BG's are fine as long as Mala works with procsets - you should see hp based builds.

Xiomaro

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

You are playing a gank magblade with 3 procs and complaining about builds that you can't oneshot or am I missing something?

BG's are fine as long as Mala works with procsets - you should see hp based builds.

I know you're a good PVPer, and you must have seen Entbert on their Stamden? 40k health, Syvarra/Crimson/Malacath. I can't honestly remember what the monster set was - could easily take Grothdarr or maybe just a defensive set. It honestly makes triple proc medium builds look like child's play. It's a hilariously hard build to punish and puts out really decent damage.

Triple proc malacath builds are obnoxious. So are 40k Malacath proc builds. They're not mutually exclusive statements.

No disrespect meant to anyone who plays these builds. I play cheese myself - it's kinda just the state of the game at the moment. But I can still be objective about it. The meta, regardless of whether it's DOT procs or health stacking with procs, isn't a lot of fun for anyone involved.

Firstmep

Xiomaro wrote: »

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

You are playing a gank magblade with 3 procs and complaining about builds that you can't oneshot or am I missing something?

BG's are fine as long as Mala works with procsets - you should see hp based builds.

I know you're a good PVPer, and you must have seen Entbert on their Stamden? 40k health, Syvarra/Crimson/Malacath. I can't honestly remember what the monster set was - could easily take Grothdarr or maybe just a defensive set. It honestly makes triple proc medium builds look like child's play. It's a hilariously hard build to punish and puts out really decent damage.

Triple proc malacath builds are obnoxious. So are 40k Malacath proc builds. They're not mutually exclusive statements.

No disrespect meant to anyone who plays these builds. I play cheese myself - it's kinda just the state of the game at the moment. But I can still be objective about it. The meta, regardless of whether it's DOT procs or health stacking with procs, isn't a lot of fun for anyone involved.

Yes, the difference between Noctus and Entbert is that Noctus dies in 2 hits outside of cloak, Entbert can facetank a team of 4 for a good while.
Arctic blast has been an offender before this proc meta, but with procs and mala you can fully abuse this skill to your hearts content, and not get punished for it.
Zos nerfed all %hp based dmg to the ground a long time ago.
Try to use knight slayer aganist one of these 45k hp wardens and their hots will naturally outheal it.

Grimlok_S

Not really a shocker. People were hyped the last time proc sets were hot, for "busting the tank meta" just to pikachu face when health pools started increasing in reaction to all the proc sets.

Now we've come full circle. Give it a year, I guess?

katorga

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Not really a shocker. People were hyped the last time proc sets were hot, for "busting the tank meta" just to pikachu face when health pools started increasing in reaction to all the proc sets.

Now we've come full circle. Give it a year, I guess?

Health levels are growing because of server performance. Health, passive health regen and armor are the only defensive tools not impacted by poor performance. What else can you do if you can't reliable roll, block or use skills?

Procs are a no-brainer, you want as much damage as possible in the fewest possible GCD. If proc sets pass a certain threshold they become instant BIS. Removing random proc conditions, delayed procs, met that threshold. Proc sets perfectly complement high health builds, double win. They don't seem to be impacted by lag, triple win.

But, back the in the day, the forums complained and had most of the counters to tanks nerfed.

Recapitated

katorga wrote: »

Grimlok_S wrote: »

Not really a shocker. People were hyped the last time proc sets were hot, for "busting the tank meta" just to pikachu face when health pools started increasing in reaction to all the proc sets.

Now we've come full circle. Give it a year, I guess?

Health levels are growing because of server performance. Health, passive health regen and armor are the only defensive tools not impacted by poor performance. What else can you do if you can't reliable roll, block or use skills?

That's not it bc you get the same thing in BGs. Doesn't help, but it's not the driving force.

Hakkanistorm

The problems are not in the tank. The problem is the huge amount of damage that cannot be dodged or blocked, you cannot protect yourself with absolutely nothing. It makes sense that humans build much defense. 90% tank will become useless without ring + 25% damage. This is the biggest mistake ever made by a game developer, adding this ring


In this game, 1-1 means nothing, people play 4-4-4, cyrodiil, move in groups. Defense is simply better than dying in 2 seconds and doing nothing useful


I dream of the days when I walked in 3 dps sets and light armor on my magplar ... but now that's a thing of the past. People have 40k hp and just damage from procs. players wear raspberry and syvar on any class.

Now, after resetting the mmr to BG, it became not so disgusting to play and you don't see this *** that happens on the noncp so often. But soon the mmr will stabilize ... and everything will be the same. You will try to escape from the unkillable necromancer / warden / dk and he will laugh in your back and hammer with 1 button diz

Xiomaro

Hakkanistorm wrote: »

The problems are not in the tank. The problem is the huge amount of damage that cannot be dodged or blocked, you cannot protect yourself with absolutely nothing. It makes sense that humans build much defense. 90% tank will become useless without ring + 25% damage. This is the biggest mistake ever made by a game developer, adding this ring


In this game, 1-1 means nothing, people play 4-4-4, cyrodiil, move in groups. Defense is simply better than dying in 2 seconds and doing nothing useful


I dream of the days when I walked in 3 dps sets and light armor on my magplar ... but now that's a thing of the past. People have 40k hp and just damage from procs. players wear raspberry and syvar on any class.

Now, after resetting the mmr to BG, it became not so disgusting to play and you don't see this *** that happens on the noncp so often. But soon the mmr will stabilize ... and everything will be the same. You will try to escape from the unkillable necromancer / warden / dk and he will laugh in your back and hammer with 1 button diz

Honestly, this is the answer right here. Without Malacath a lot of the current tank builds would be relegated to troll builds. It's actually insane how much damage Malacath adds. Even classes that have a lot of crit mechanics often benefit from just giving them up for Malacath.

Zekka

Recapitated wrote: »

That's not it bc you get the same thing in BGs. Doesn't help, but it's not the driving force.

As if performance in BGs has not been just as garbage as Cyro for a good year now.
Anyway, if something needs to be done about healthstacking, a damage output debuff past a certain health threshold should stop these ridiculous (40k+ hp now...) stamdens/stamnecros but healthstacking is just a response to another problem: damage in no cp is too high, I would have been fine with the previous 60% battle spirit healing debuff had ZOS also lowered damage in general through battle spirit in no cp.
Then there is the Malacath band of p2w that allows players with 20k stam and 2k weapon damage to hit just as hard as pure stat glass cannons, on top of boosting whatever proc sets they decide to wear.

BraidasNM

I think they should get rid of health based skills. Why are you being rewarded for just stacking up?

Waffennacht

BraidasNM wrote: »

I think they should get rid of health based skills. Why are you being rewarded for just stacking up?

Typically PvE tbf. In this game you cant rely on getting a decent healer; tanks need a way to heal themselves

Recapitated

Zekka wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

That's not it bc you get the same thing in BGs. Doesn't help, but it's not the driving force.

As if performance in BGs has not been just as garbage as Cyro for a good year now.

Yes, I don't think that's all that controversial... I've never had my action bar get completely shut down in BGs or loading screens aside from loading the instance etc. Performance was never good but it hasn't worsened so much that it would drastically change how much health people have.

I agree with pretty much everything else you've written, I just don't want the malacath + health-based heals + proc sets combination ignored as though this would go away with better performance. IMO any of those two in combination is going to create issues.

Noctus

Zekka wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

That's not it bc you get the same thing in BGs. Doesn't help, but it's not the driving force.

As if performance in BGs has not been just as garbage as Cyro for a good year now.
Anyway, if something needs to be done about healthstacking, a damage output debuff past a certain health threshold should stop these ridiculous (40k+ hp now...) stamdens/stamnecros but healthstacking is just a response to another problem: damage in no cp is too high, I would have been fine with the previous 60% battle spirit healing debuff had ZOS also lowered damage in general through battle spirit in no cp.
Then there is the Malacath band of p2w that allows players with 20k stam and 2k weapon damage to hit just as hard as pure stat glass cannons, on top of boosting whatever proc sets they decide to wear.

damage should not be generally lowered but lower for those who are tanky. the problem we are dealing with is also the pure advantage of putting on heavy armor in comparison to lightarmor only. max magicka should give more dmg output. offensive stats should matter more in the dmg calculation.

Joinovikova

You have to have high health pool since [snip] EU server in 50% iof cases will not allow u to break free ( even with full stam bar..).. so u need to survice proc sets stack on u

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

nckg84

It's all crying out for nerfs without thinking about proper game design.

Things should not be nerfed but corrected/fixed. I swapped to heavy armour high HP/regen builds with malacath on most my stamina toons for a simple reason. Medium (in any competetive bg) is not viable due to the stacking of procs. The addition of the ridicilous proc damage in no-cp means if i get caught once by a bad stun then i'm dead because of some random hunters venom or random other proc.

Proc damage should tie into your stats. Certain defensive sets need a balance pass because they do way to much. I'm thinking Orgnum scales and crimson for example.

With regards to malacath it's not an easy fix as it's so easily nerfed into the ground. To be fair i run on my stamden malacath with 2 defensive sets and i;m rocking 35k hp with ~4.,5k regen when i'm being pressured. That's fine but i'm also running 3k weapon damage with malacath. That's an issue.

nckg84

On a side note it's not just health builds, malacath and proc sets. If you think about it it's everything in the game thats somehow wrong (with regards to PvP).

Back to the stamden. ~35k HP, ~4.5k health recovery. ~30k resistences. 3k weapon damage (because infused jewelry) and malacath on top. With potion active ~2k stam recovery. A spammable heal that heals a buttload (because based on max health) + vigor and something else that hits way to hard in combination with malacath.

This should not be a thing. The balance is all over the place but it's not related to a single thing. It's the combination of a buttload of things.

Waffennacht

nckg84 wrote: »

On a side note it's not just health builds, malacath and proc sets. If you think about it it's everything in the game thats somehow wrong (with regards to PvP).

Back to the stamden. ~35k HP, ~4.5k health recovery. ~30k resistences. 3k weapon damage (because infused jewelry) and malacath on top. With potion active ~2k stam recovery. A spammable heal that heals a buttload (because based on max health) + vigor and something else that hits way to hard in combination with malacath.

This should not be a thing. The balance is all over the place but it's not related to a single thing. It's the combination of a buttload of things.

I have been trying stat based builds; and they look as good as this one on paper.

Stats look great; however id still take a proc build hands down.

Infact I wouldnt be surprised your set up is something ive used before too.

Also; youre talking warden, one of the better classes ATM.

I dunno, I guess Im saying that despite how insanely good those stats look, proc builds are better

nckg84

Waffennacht wrote: »

nckg84 wrote: »

On a side note it's not just health builds, malacath and proc sets. If you think about it it's everything in the game thats somehow wrong (with regards to PvP).

Back to the stamden. ~35k HP, ~4.5k health recovery. ~30k resistences. 3k weapon damage (because infused jewelry) and malacath on top. With potion active ~2k stam recovery. A spammable heal that heals a buttload (because based on max health) + vigor and something else that hits way to hard in combination with malacath.

This should not be a thing. The balance is all over the place but it's not related to a single thing. It's the combination of a buttload of things.

I have been trying stat based builds; and they look as good as this one on paper.

Stats look great; however id still take a proc build hands down.

Infact I wouldnt be surprised your set up is something ive used before too.

Also; youre talking warden, one of the better classes ATM.

I dunno, I guess Im saying that despite how insanely good those stats look, proc builds are better

For raw pressure and 0 effort yes there better. But both should not be the case imo. The game design should be fixed.

Rhaegar75

the issue I want to point out is that most of the BG I play are topped by unkillable Tanky Stamdens with no risk all reward builds.

Most other classes have lots of plusses but also enough weaknesses to make them vulnerable enough to allow some chance if you play well

Sergykid

GrigorijMalahevich wrote: »

gank magblade with 3 procs

which are those two proc sets alongside Caluurion?

katorga

BraidasNM wrote: »

I think they should get rid of health based skills. Why are you being rewarded for just stacking up?

What is how all the heal and damage skills work...reward you for stacking stats.

Recapitated

katorga wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

I think they should get rid of health based skills. Why are you being rewarded for just stacking up?

What is how all the heal and damage skills work...reward you for stacking stats.

And in principle there's a tradeoff but it's been broken by various design choices. Balorgh gets you 2k wd without sacrificing much and can get you way more than that. Malacath doesn't help. Proc sets make wd/sd irrelevant, etc.

All of those things are either bad or have the capacity to create problems. Health based heals are the latter, they were fine in previous patches but the enable unhealthy builds

Wolfpaw

Noctus wrote: »

the dominating ppl in bg are allways the ones going for healthstacking + proc heavy armor and dawnbreaker subteranean assault combo.(its not skill to wait for ur ult and land that) it has been the most effective playstyle for a long time now.

everything that does dmg or heal should scale of maxmagicka or stamina and spelldmg weapondmg on every set.

its not worth atm going for light armor glasscannon build especially when u go for stat build !!!!!!! this is a balancing problem.

healthbased healing needs to be nerfed. skills should scale more of stats. procs should also scale on maxresource and stat.

Remove healing gains through health, & weapon/spell damage completely.