Suggestion for Much Better Class Diversity

Rudrani

[My brain is oriented around Mag DPS, but you could find some way to translate this to stam, I think...]

The way the game is built, max mag, spell dmg, and crit chance/ amount are like 95% of what determines your damage output. The result is that it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade or a sorc or whatever, you basically need the same buffs, and thus the same gear.

That's unnecessarily boring.

I suggest changing it so that each class has a multiplier available for damage of a certain type. And make sure there are sets that will clearly outperform others, but only for that specific type.

Here is an example of what I mean, using Sorcs...

Sorcs are all about electricity.
If a Sorc wears Overwhelming or Netch's Touch (for example) it should benefit them A LOT more than if a templar wears those same sets.
If a Sorc uses a ligtning staff, it should be a lot more effective than if some other class does.

Does it make sense, what I'm suggesting?

I would suggest these for the strong damage type:

DK - Fire
Sorc - Lightning
Warden - Ice (make sure the tank-options for Ice staffs are electable morphs)
NB - Oblivion / Draining
Templar - "Magic"
Necro - Oblivion, or some opposite to templar

For stam, maybe..

Warden, NB and DK = Poison
Necro = Disease
Templar = "Weapon"
Sorc = Projectile

You could add a whole other layer of sophistication by also doing this for RACE

Dunmer get more out of fire
Nord, Ice
Argonian... whatever, you figure out the details! ^.~

sionIV

While this would be nice for class identity, it would kill the diversity of builds.

Vayln_Ninetails

Counter suggestion:

To add more diversity to the classes; why not add a 4th skill line to each class that focuses PURELY on unique-class flavor. Im not talking about 'oh just another AoE ability' or 'oh just another single target ability,' I mean a skill line that focuses on things that no other class can do ever that isn't just boiled down to 'haha buff/heal/damage ability'

Firstmep

Rudrani wrote: »

[My brain is oriented around Mag DPS, but you could find some way to translate this to stam, I think...]

The way the game is built, max mag, spell dmg, and crit chance/ amount are like 95% of what determines your damage output. The result is that it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade or a sorc or whatever, you basically need the same buffs, and thus the same gear.

That's unnecessarily boring.

I suggest changing it so that each class has a multiplier available for damage of a certain type. And make sure there are sets that will clearly outperform others, but only for that specific type.

Here is an example of what I mean, using Sorcs...

Sorcs are all about electricity.
If a Sorc wears Overwhelming or Netch's Touch (for example) it should benefit them A LOT more than if a templar wears those same sets.
If a Sorc uses a ligtning staff, it should be a lot more effective than if some other class does.

Does it make sense, what I'm suggesting?

I would suggest these for the strong damage type:

DK - Fire
Sorc - Lightning
Warden - Ice (make sure the tank-options for Ice staffs are electable morphs)
NB - Oblivion / Draining
Templar - "Magic"
Necro - Oblivion, or some opposite to templar

For stam, maybe..

Warden, NB and DK = Poison
Necro = Disease
Templar = "Weapon"
Sorc = Projectile

You could add a whole other layer of sophistication by also doing this for RACE

Dunmer get more out of fire
Nord, Ice
Argonian... whatever, you figure out the details! ^.~

Sorcerers already get a %modifier to lightning and physical damage.
Dragonknights engulfing flames increase fire damage taken.
Wardens deal extra damage with frost.
Necromancer with damage over time effects.
Templars and nightblades get additional critical damage.
I mean if love for physical and magic damage to get their status effects and then magplar/magblade could benefit from that perhaps.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

Rudrani wrote: »

DK - Fire
Sorc - Lightning
Warden - Ice (make sure the tank-options for Ice staffs are electable morphs)
NB - magic
Templar - bring back the sun dammage spell from skyrim dawn guard
Necro - Oblivion, or some opposite to templar

Recapitated

Eh. There was a time when the meta was for sorcs to carry lightning staves in PvE and then that was not the meta anymore. That sort of thing makes almost no difference to the way the game plays. PvE DPS are all still in the business of babysitting dots and spamming a filler the rest of the time; the animations and gear and elemental damage of choice is pretty much cosmetic to me.

FWIW PVP already works roughly in the way you describe but not necessarily with elemental damage. You do have magdks benefiting from BSW more than others, NB gankers getting more out of Swamp Raider, certain specs benefiting from SD while others stack max mag, some specs getting more out of Malacath and others getting more out of torc etc etc

lolo_01b16_ESO

Rudrani wrote: »

You could add a whole other layer of sophistication by also doing this for RACE

Dunmer get more out of fire
Nord, Ice
Argonian... whatever, you figure out the details! ^.~

Actually for a long time, dunmer had a passive to increase their fire damage by a few percent, while altmer had an other passive increasing all elemental damage, but by a smaller amount. Additionally other unique racial passives like red diamond or adrenalin rush used to have much more impact if you created your build around them.

Don't exatly remember why they got changed, but I guess it was done to "balance" something.

BXR_Lonestar

It would help build diversity if you got extra damage for over-penetrating. People would then have to calibrate their builds not just to try to hit that magic number of 18200, but how much further beyond that do they want to go, and what will they be willing to give up to get more penetration. It would be just another variable that could ultimately lead to more DPS if you stack that particular stat.

It would also help in PVE if proc sets brought your overall DPS up on par with sets that increase your overall spell power/spell damage/crit chance. I know proc sets are the bane of people in PVP, but in PVE, they're not even close to meta because wearing a set that boosts your raw spell/weapon damage boosts your overall damage for everything, whereas a proc sets usually amount to nothing more than an additional damage skill that adds another 2-5k dps - at best. So to be competitive, most people just throw on Mother's Sorrow+damage set or for stam, Relequens/Loki's + damage set (medium armor gets critical bonus, so no need to wear a crit set).

Finally, I main a healer, and as a healer main, I can tell you that one of the things that limits build diversity from a healer standpoint is one-hit mechanics. Because of them, there is no point in building a healer around defensive/survivability buffs because no matter what you do, in high-end content you or your teammates are just going to get one-shotted. So sets that boost the defense of your teammates (i.e., combat physician, imperium, + any other set that boosts defensive stats) are a waste, making offensive or offensive stat buff sets the ONLY way to go.

IMO, I'd love to see them shift philosophies in content design so that one or two healers decked out in defensive sets could hardcore carry a team through tough content because it makes it so much easier for everyone to survive. This would be so much more helpful to allow less experienced people learn vet dungeons and trials. Then, if you want to go for timed runs, obviously, you go with offensive sets to boost kill times.

Crixus8000

This would kill build diversity and make pvp even more unbalanced. Nightblades and necros getting buffed oblivion dmg ? and if my stamsorc could only be ranged then I would prefer to stop playing the game.

Calm_Fury

There was a time, a long time ago, that each class kind of had its own best in slot gear.

MagDKs had Burning Spellweave+Grothdar
MagBlades had Scathing Mage
MagPlars had dual-sword Moondancer+Grothdar
Sorcs had Necro/Netche's+Illambris

Then, one patch, Burning Spellweave became the best for everyone when they buffed fire and I don't think the game ever had each-class-with-its-own-best-setup kind of thing anymore.

Now we have the "BiS mag" and "BiS stam" for the most part, which is very sad.

Recapitated

Calm_Fury wrote: »

There was a time, a long time ago, that each class kind of had its own best in slot gear.

MagDKs had Burning Spellweave+Grothdar
MagBlades had Scathing Mage
MagPlars had dual-sword Moondancer+Grothdar
Sorcs had Necro/Netche's+Illambris

Then, one patch, Burning Spellweave became the best for everyone when they buffed fire and I don't think the game ever had each-class-with-its-own-best-setup kind of thing anymore.

Now we have the "BiS mag" and "BiS stam" for the most part, which is very sad.

Especially with set collections on the way I have no problem with the status quo. Right now I don't feel like I would get anything out of playing a magblade instead of a magsorc in pve. If my magsorc wore Netch's whereas my magblade wore scathing it would still not feel like there's a difference but I'd have to farm a second set to hit DPS targets.

Calm_Fury

Recapitated wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

There was a time, a long time ago, that each class kind of had its own best in slot gear.

MagDKs had Burning Spellweave+Grothdar
MagBlades had Scathing Mage
MagPlars had dual-sword Moondancer+Grothdar
Sorcs had Necro/Netche's+Illambris

Then, one patch, Burning Spellweave became the best for everyone when they buffed fire and I don't think the game ever had each-class-with-its-own-best-setup kind of thing anymore.

Now we have the "BiS mag" and "BiS stam" for the most part, which is very sad.

Especially with set collections on the way I have no problem with the status quo. Right now I don't feel like I would get anything out of playing a magblade instead of a magsorc in pve. If my magsorc wore Netch's whereas my magblade wore scathing it would still not feel like there's a difference but I'd have to farm a second set to hit DPS targets.

I liked it better when each class had its own "thing".

The MagPlar with dual-wield Moondancer was such a cool, in character spec with Sweeps.

Now that we have the Sticker Book, I reall wish we could go back to that since it is easier now to get multiple sets.

Everyone with Mother's Sorrow / False God's or Relequen / Advancing Yokeda is just boring.

Gives us sets that are very strong if > X% of your damage is of a certain type so we can get some differentiation again.

Recapitated

Calm_Fury wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

Calm_Fury wrote: »

There was a time, a long time ago, that each class kind of had its own best in slot gear.

MagDKs had Burning Spellweave+Grothdar
MagBlades had Scathing Mage
MagPlars had dual-sword Moondancer+Grothdar
Sorcs had Necro/Netche's+Illambris

Then, one patch, Burning Spellweave became the best for everyone when they buffed fire and I don't think the game ever had each-class-with-its-own-best-setup kind of thing anymore.

Now we have the "BiS mag" and "BiS stam" for the most part, which is very sad.

Especially with set collections on the way I have no problem with the status quo. Right now I don't feel like I would get anything out of playing a magblade instead of a magsorc in pve. If my magsorc wore Netch's whereas my magblade wore scathing it would still not feel like there's a difference but I'd have to farm a second set to hit DPS targets.

I liked it better when each class had its own "thing".

The MagPlar with dual-wield Moondancer was such a cool, in character spec with Sweeps.

Now that we have the Sticker Book, I reall wish we could go back to that since it is easier now to get multiple sets.

Everyone with Mother's Sorrow / False God's or Relequen / Advancing Yokeda is just boring.

Gives us sets that are very strong if > X% of your damage is of a certain type so we can get some differentiation again.

I care way more about melee weapons on melee classes, I'll give you that.

I'm not saying I like that BIS gear is the same for every class, btw. I'm just saying that if the class plays the same either way then I think slapping a different set on is a very superficial way of creating diversity.

YandereGirlfriend

Players (including myself) might disagree with some of the class:specialization associations in the OP, but I think that many players would love to see a return of classes actually playing to their power fantasy and in a way that impacts their choice of BiS gear.

One of the major problems in ESO is simply the overall lack of skills to choose from and, more specifically, the paucity of class-specific skill options to really specialize your build.

Another glaring problem is the limited nature of itemization in the game and how there are only like, what ~10 different 2-4 piece set bonuses that are rigidly applied to the role trinity. Then there is the current over-reliance on gimmicky procs as 5-piece bonuses instead of providing tools to actually make use of the full range of stats that are kept on every single character (compare UESP Build Editor to in-game stats to see what I am talking about). These stats are all maintained by the game but they not able to be accessed or meaningfully modified by players or are able to be modified only in crude ways.

One final problem is the impact of class passives and how they are, generally speaking, too weak to overcome the general metas existing in the game. For example, the Sorcerer passive for 5% Shock damage is FAR too weak to ever make specializing in Shock Damage (even if they were enough skills to build a rotation out of...) a viable option over Flame Damage. However, if you buff that passive to +25% Shock Damage and introduce (or convert...) a few more Shock Damage abilities, then suddenly you might have something worth using. Do the same thing for every class (making whatever other balance adjustments are necessary to avoid obviously OP situations) and their elemental affinity and suddenly classes start looking much different from each other again.

Then go back through and re-itemize. Make a "Deadly Strikes" for Magicka and then go even further and make a set that doubles only Shock Damage DoTs. Very specific? Yes. Could it be used to build very something strong and unique? Yes. And that is the point. Permute this across all classes and sets and let a thousand flowers of build diversity bloom.

barney2525

Rudrani wrote: »

[My brain is oriented around Mag DPS, but you could find some way to translate this to stam, I think...]

The way the game is built, max mag, spell dmg, and crit chance/ amount are like 95% of what determines your damage output. The result is that it doesn't matter if you are a nightblade or a sorc or whatever, you basically need the same buffs, and thus the same gear.

That's unnecessarily boring.

I suggest changing it so that each class has a multiplier available for damage of a certain type. And make sure there are sets that will clearly outperform others, but only for that specific type.

Here is an example of what I mean, using Sorcs...

Sorcs are all about electricity.
If a Sorc wears Overwhelming or Netch's Touch (for example) it should benefit them A LOT more than if a templar wears those same sets.
If a Sorc uses a ligtning staff, it should be a lot more effective than if some other class does.

Does it make sense, what I'm suggesting?

I would suggest these for the strong damage type:

DK - Fire
Sorc - Lightning
Warden - Ice (make sure the tank-options for Ice staffs are electable morphs)
NB - Oblivion / Draining
Templar - "Magic"
Necro - Oblivion, or some opposite to templar

For stam, maybe..

Warden, NB and DK = Poison
Necro = Disease
Templar = "Weapon"
Sorc = Projectile

You could add a whole other layer of sophistication by also doing this for RACE

Dunmer get more out of fire
Nord, Ice
Argonian... whatever, you figure out the details! ^.~

Does what you are suggesting make sense, as you ask early on ? ummmm. no

This game is not using items as conduits. The power of the staff is within the staff itself, and therefore it is simply knowledge of how to trigger the power OF the staff. The character (doesn't matter what class, race, or even build - which is the tip off here) is not investing anything of themselves into the effect. Any stamina character can use a staff, therefore, it is the Staff that holds the power - Not the character.

Now, you might say, 'but it uses the same pool of magicka the character draws their spells cast from'. So ? And I can swing my sword Very Hard and ADD stamina to my stamina pool, therefore, swinging my sword makes me stronger - not weaker. Does that make sense? The Magicka/Stamina pools are simply an out of character game mechanic to limit the actions of all characters. The pools are not something tangible, like holding a staff. Therefore, the Pool, and the use Of the Pool is not required to 'make sense' per se. It's OOC mechanics, just like applying Numbers to damage or health or defenses or attacks. When was the last time you saw someone in real life fire a gun and a Number popped up when the bullet hit the target ?

This is just the way things work for THIS game. Simple triggering of effects. Which is why it does not matter what class/race/build you use - In This Game.

IMHO

Rudrani

sionIV wrote: »

While this would be nice for class identity, it would kill the diversity of builds.

pls explain

Rudrani

Firstmep wrote: »

Sorcerers already get a %modifier to lightning and physical damage.
Dragonknights engulfing flames increase fire damage taken.
Wardens deal extra damage with frost.
Necromancer with damage over time effects.
Templars and nightblades get additional critical damage.
I mean if love for physical and magic damage to get their status effects and then magplar/magblade could benefit from that perhaps.

Needs to be MORE.
For ex: Sorcs have a modifier - big deal, they still have to use flame staff

Recapitated

Rudrani wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Sorcerers already get a %modifier to lightning and physical damage.
Dragonknights engulfing flames increase fire damage taken.
Wardens deal extra damage with frost.
Necromancer with damage over time effects.
Templars and nightblades get additional critical damage.
I mean if love for physical and magic damage to get their status effects and then magplar/magblade could benefit from that perhaps.

Needs to be MORE.
For ex: Sorcs have a modifier - big deal, they still have to use flame staff

And then what? Sorc's rotation will look the same but with liquid lightning added maybe and one ele weapon taken out, and you'll have to farm vMA/MS lightning staff for the privilege of making a largely cosmetic change to your playstyle.

And of course, if ZOS doesn't get the numbers right then we get another source of imbalance in the meta. What if stamcro's new damage type passive ends up interacting with something else and we wind up with 8-9 stamcro dps in trials?

You need way more happening on the set side in order for this to matter and actually change class playstyles in PvE.

Personally I would rather see some new sets that interact differently with each class: the 5-piece bonus budget would be one fairly standard damage boost line and a passive side-grade line that affects the way each class plays and leans into its identity, whether that's damage type or something else. That compartmentalizes the changes you're looking to implement so that even if they don't go very deep at least they can happen without making so many existing builds obsolete.