Cyrodiil Combat Changes Will End Open World PVP As It Is Now

Nutrone

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

Nairinhe

IIRC, they didn't boast. They said that while there was noticeable performance improvement it wasn't enough.
And I still hope that they need the tests to find the reason for lag, not to test the solution.

olsborg

Nutrone wrote: »

if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

Yes ofcourse.

Mike0987

Perhaps it will improve things like skills actually working instead of half animating, so when the ball group (now 2 groups in the same guild chat) rolls over me I can actually have defense/offence against it because skills might actually work. Currently the '80s server cant keep up with the calculation, so it stops you from ever performing what you're about to do.

techyeshic

This week has been the most restricted and I have seen little reason to believe there's much improvement. All they have done with this and the current meta is drive people off.

I'll be curious to see who the meta is actually; once ERs and purge are more common. That is if they don't just leave their "best" test in place

Firstmep

techyeshic wrote: »

This week has been the most restricted and I have seen little reason to believe there's much improvement. All they have done with this and the current meta is drive people off.

I'll be curious to see who the meta is actually; once ERs and purge are more common. That is if they don't just leave their "best" test in place

From bgs I can tell you that no amount of purging can keep up with the dot procs once you have multiple people in the fight.
I don't even mean outnumbered, even I equal fights.

DaveMoeDee

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

techyeshic

Firstmep wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

This week has been the most restricted and I have seen little reason to believe there's much improvement. All they have done with this and the current meta is drive people off.

I'll be curious to see who the meta is actually; once ERs and purge are more common. That is if they don't just leave their "best" test in place

From bgs I can tell you that no amount of purging can keep up with the dot procs once you have multiple people in the fight.
I don't even mean outnumbered, even I equal fights.

You only have 4 allies there though. In Cyrodiil; hots and purges start flying around in large fights. I agree in that procs are much cheaper and easy to reapply, but it should be better than it is now with the state of Cyrodiil

Nutrone

techyeshic wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

This week has been the most restricted and I have seen little reason to believe there's much improvement. All they have done with this and the current meta is drive people off.

I'll be curious to see who the meta is actually; once ERs and purge are more common. That is if they don't just leave their "best" test in place

From bgs I can tell you that no amount of purging can keep up with the dot procs once you have multiple people in the fight.
I don't even mean outnumbered, even I equal fights.

You only have 4 allies there though. In Cyrodiil; hots and purges start flying around in large fights. I agree in that procs are much cheaper and easy to reapply, but it should be better than it is now with the state of Cyrodiil

The whole notion that procs dominate BGs is pretty accurate and is a large part of the reason I enjoy playing CP enabled PVP. If everyone here has seen isther3no1else's recent videos, you can get a pretty accurate understanding of the current climate in BGs. Ofcourse with the return of 4-man group que BGs, things will look different as organized 4-mans can deal with a lot of these sets, but it doesn't make it a suitable alternative to PVP as a whole if they do end up killing Cyrodiil.

Nutrone

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

I can see your perspective on how better performance might cause an influx of returning players and new players to Cyrodiil. At the same time, I think that if these Combat Changes are made, it will just make it harder for returning and new players to close the skill gap in PVP, inevitably causing them to leave again out of frustration as current Cyrodiil players are already doing.

Joy_Division

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

Yeah. They'll show up and when they die because they can't cast a skill that's on cooldown, they'll go right back to PvE group play and clearing narrative content.

antihero727

I was on last night and got booted 2x and the skill delay was still present as usual. IDK what they did beside taking the "fun factor" out of PvP as usual with more beta testing. Haven't we been beta testing this garbage fire for 5 years now? I want my beta testing reparation's 2020!

Beaverton

On the plus side, I got in last night with no que! ;p

LightYagami

Beaverton wrote: »

On the plus side, I got in last night with no que! ;p

Nice!
In the future, if the global AOE cool down becomes a permanent mechanics, more people will leave and no one needs to queue anymore.

With plunged population, server workloads will be reduced and latency will no longer be an issue of Cyrodiil. Problem solved.

What a Great Success due to the cool down! Why bother spending money on upgrading servers?

idk

From what we have seen in-game and heard from actual reliable sources we have no idea what will happen if anything. This is not the first time Zos tested changes in Cyrodiil on the live server. Zos did not make the changes tested back then.

Yes, people are making assumptions but that is all they can do. The tests do not tell us what or if Zos will make changes to actual gameplay in Cyrodiil.

What we can do is provide well through constructive feedback. Merely complaining that I do not like it for the sake of not liking change is not the type of feedback that is most effective.

DaveMoeDee

Nutrone wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

I can see your perspective on how better performance might cause an influx of returning players and new players to Cyrodiil. At the same time, I think that if these Combat Changes are made, it will just make it harder for returning and new players to close the skill gap in PVP, inevitably causing them to leave again out of frustration as current Cyrodiil players are already doing.

Why would it be hard for them to close the skill gap? They will be using the same mechanics as everyone else.

Personally, as a casual PvP person who just does Cyrodiil with a guild, I have no interest in close any skill gap in PvP. I don't care in the least if someone kills me. Whatever. I just want long, big, crazy sieges.

SgtNuttzmeg

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

I can see your perspective on how better performance might cause an influx of returning players and new players to Cyrodiil. At the same time, I think that if these Combat Changes are made, it will just make it harder for returning and new players to close the skill gap in PVP, inevitably causing them to leave again out of frustration as current Cyrodiil players are already doing.

Why would it be hard for them to close the skill gap? They will be using the same mechanics as everyone else.

Personally, as a casual PvP person who just does Cyrodiil with a guild, I have no interest in close any skill gap in PvP. I don't care in the least if someone kills me. Whatever. I just want long, big, crazy sieges.

Reducing group size, limiting healing to groups only and 3 second cooldowns hurt zergs more than optimized Ball Groups. That was my point. I don't mind a skill gap but it doesn't make sense for the devs to try and close the skill gap, just to expand it in the next patch.

Crash427

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

I can see your perspective on how better performance might cause an influx of returning players and new players to Cyrodiil. At the same time, I think that if these Combat Changes are made, it will just make it harder for returning and new players to close the skill gap in PVP, inevitably causing them to leave again out of frustration as current Cyrodiil players are already doing.

Why would it be hard for them to close the skill gap? They will be using the same mechanics as everyone else.

Personally, as a casual PvP person who just does Cyrodiil with a guild, I have no interest in close any skill gap in PvP. I don't care in the least if someone kills me. Whatever. I just want long, big, crazy sieges.

Reducing group size, limiting healing to groups only and 3 second cooldowns hurt zergs more than optimized Ball Groups. That was my point. I don't mind a skill gap but it doesn't make sense for the devs to try and close the skill gap, just to expand it in the next patch.

It didn't make sense to buff dots one patch and turn around and nerf them in to the ground shortly after either, but they did it.

SgtNuttzmeg

Crash427 wrote: »

SgtNuttzmeg wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Nutrone wrote: »

From what I have seen and heard, especially over the last two weeks after ZOS boasted about the better performance with the global cool down tests, more and more guilds are looking at leaving Cyrodiil if such changes are implemented permanently. With the lack of large groups in campaigns right now, any of the results produced from the current tests will negatively impact these groups and guilds. I'm sure there are many in the community who are not a fan of large groups in Cyrodiil, however it is open world PVP and large scale fights are a huge reason as to why many people play and enjoy playing in Cyrodiil. So if these changes are made permanent, Cyrodiil PVP as we know it will quite possibly be over.

As a casual PvP player, I think I stopped really going there like 2 years ago. While PvP is way behind PvE group play and clearing narrative content on my list of things to do, I did really enjoy long, large-scale sieges with PvP guilds. While I could sometimes stomach the stuttering gameplay as things were really laggy, eventually I just asked myself what the point was of bothering, especially when I would sometimes get booted from the game during intense moments. The novelty of the poor-performance fog-of-war quickly turned into annoyance.

So while changes might scare away the guilds that remained, would a better performing system bring back the people who bailed? We know performance already causes many to avoid Cyrodiil, and it may never improve without such changes.

I can see your perspective on how better performance might cause an influx of returning players and new players to Cyrodiil. At the same time, I think that if these Combat Changes are made, it will just make it harder for returning and new players to close the skill gap in PVP, inevitably causing them to leave again out of frustration as current Cyrodiil players are already doing.

Why would it be hard for them to close the skill gap? They will be using the same mechanics as everyone else.

Personally, as a casual PvP person who just does Cyrodiil with a guild, I have no interest in close any skill gap in PvP. I don't care in the least if someone kills me. Whatever. I just want long, big, crazy sieges.

Reducing group size, limiting healing to groups only and 3 second cooldowns hurt zergs more than optimized Ball Groups. That was my point. I don't mind a skill gap but it doesn't make sense for the devs to try and close the skill gap, just to expand it in the next patch.

It didn't make sense to buff dots one patch and turn around and nerf them in to the ground shortly after either, but they did it.

You aren't wrong. XD

Joy_Division

idk wrote: »

From what we have seen in-game and heard from actual reliable sources we have no idea what will happen if anything. This is not the first time Zos tested changes in Cyrodiil on the live server. Zos did not make the changes tested back then.

Yes, people are making assumptions but that is all they can do. The tests do not tell us what or if Zos will make changes to actual gameplay in Cyrodiil.

What we can do is provide well through constructive feedback. Merely complaining that I do not like it for the sake of not liking change is not the type of feedback that is most effective.

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

we have reached the point where we cannot fix this issue around the edges: we need to address the core problem, which we will be starting with Update 27...

... We will be very upfront, but please be aware that if these tests confirm our hypothesis, then chain-casting AOE abilities will no longer form the core of the ESO PvP experience in the way it has for the last few years. We would then go through each class and ensure that there are viable builds for each and make adjustments as necessary.

That's from the horse's mouth and there no if regarding ZOS's changes, but when and what form they will take.

I will complain, loudly and repeatedly, because the hypothesis that they are so laser focused on - chain casting AoEs and the supposed recent upsurge of players being able to cast so many of them do not conform to how Cyrodiil has been played since Launch. And because their tests undermine, and in the case of classes like Templar negate, the very basics of how ESO combat was designed from the ground up. Most of all, because I gave these tests an honest try and they all make the game incredibly unfun. The only one I could tolerate was week 5, but those mechanics are inherently broken as they screw over people who are not in a group because ... I still don't understand the logic behind that one - especially since it's the very organized groups that are perceived to be too strong and much of the cause of the problem in the first place.

merevie

Unsurprisingly, the tests did not improve performance.

At this point I am afraid they have to open wallets at HQ and fix the servers.

An expensive and very public demonstration of why that is needed, done in front of 2 million players.

Whoopsie.

forfoxsakemary

Cyrodiil is the first and only PvP that I've loved in all the games that I've played (and that's a lot) . Now they just ruined it. It would really suck if it stayed like this, it was much better before now it's just frustrating. Really hope it comes back as it was!

As a healer I am now useless -.-

Please ZOS, don't ruin this...

Mike0987

Mike0987 wrote: »

Perhaps it will improve things like skills actually working instead of half animating, so when the ball group (now 2 groups in the same guild chat) rolls over me I can actually have defense/offence against it because skills might actually work. Currently the '80s server cant keep up with the calculation, so it stops you from ever performing what you're about to do.

I was wrong, it is much worse now...

Ralamil

Mike0987 wrote: »

Mike0987 wrote: »

Perhaps it will improve things like skills actually working instead of half animating, so when the ball group (now 2 groups in the same guild chat) rolls over me I can actually have defense/offence against it because skills might actually work. Currently the '80s server cant keep up with the calculation, so it stops you from ever performing what you're about to do.

I was wrong, it is much worse now...

Because they fixed nothing. The problem has never been a single guild/group of 24. The problem is faction stacking several groups. Whether that's three 24-man groups or six 12-man groups, THAT has always been a problem. But one they staunchly refuse to acknowledge or fix in any meaningful way.

Or perhaps one of many numerous other potential issues is the cause of it all.

[snip]

[Edit for discussing moderation.]

KitLightning

Problem now in PVP besides the lag, is that it is an unfair playground; Solo vs Group leaves the former to face players w assisted heals. The change to cut off players being able to cross heal is mindblowingly *** up from the Developers side.

Agalloch

ESO was advertised and launched as a massive PVP AVA GAME.

I think ZOS want to kill Cyrodiil by making these drastic changes .

Soon Cyrodiil will become a ghost town with a few ball groups ..

Now Cyrodiil has become a large battleground ( Not an OPEN AVA anymore.

The casual/noob/unelite players will stop to play Cyrodiil ...because soon they will become discouraged and frustrated.

I hope next year ZOS will revert these changes.

English is not my native language.

alterfenixeb17_ESO

Agalloch wrote: »

ESO was advertised and launched as a massive PVP AVA GAME.

I think ZOS want to kill Cyrodiil by making these drastic changes .

Soon Cyrodiil will become a ghost town with a few ball groups ..

Now Cyrodiil has become a large battleground ( Not an OPEN AVA anymore.

The casual/noob/unelite players will stop to play Cyrodiil ...because soon they will become discouraged and frustrated.

I hope next year ZOS will revert these changes.

English is not my native language.

Should your prediction be correct next year may be too late, sorry. Also it is true that many players got dragged into TESO because of promise of Cyro as actual RvR so massive battles and alliance-wide objectives in the first place.

NeillMcAttack

U25 already ended open world PvP as we know it. Now we need to find a way to make the game function during prime time. This will require more changes, and likely smaller scale, possibly further reducing group sizes even.

NeillMcAttack

Agalloch wrote: »

ESO was advertised and launched as a massive PVP AVA GAME.

I think ZOS want to kill Cyrodiil by making these drastic changes .

Soon Cyrodiil will become a ghost town with a few ball groups ..

Now Cyrodiil has become a large battleground ( Not an OPEN AVA anymore.

The casual/noob/unelite players will stop to play Cyrodiil ...because soon they will become discouraged and frustrated.

I hope next year ZOS will revert these changes.

English is not my native language.

You seem to have this backwards, the casual player will be the ones still around Cyro, it’s the ball groups that will disappear, which benefits the casual player. I’d wager that this is a scenario that ZOS would actually prefer.

Gardarik

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Agalloch wrote: »

ESO was advertised and launched as a massive PVP AVA GAME.

I think ZOS want to kill Cyrodiil by making these drastic changes .

Soon Cyrodiil will become a ghost town with a few ball groups ..

Now Cyrodiil has become a large battleground ( Not an OPEN AVA anymore.

The casual/noob/unelite players will stop to play Cyrodiil ...because soon they will become discouraged and frustrated.

I hope next year ZOS will revert these changes.

English is not my native language.

You seem to have this backwards, the casual player will be the ones still around Cyro, it’s the ball groups that will disappear, which benefits the casual player. I’d wager that this is a scenario that ZOS would actually prefer.

I would say the casuals would disappear. Casuals are the ones who are most likely to zergsurf without a group. Casuals don't group up for various reasons, and this change hit them the most. As they will disappear, Cyro indeed will turn into a big battleground. It is happening already. Me and my buddy, both filthy casuals, simply stopped playing the game because when we have 1-2 hours after work to spare to play some PvP, we want to do it wit hour pace and choosing our fights, not playing logistics simulator on a horse chasing the crown and typing "lfg". My buddy, whose main is a magplar healer, being a non-English speaking healer who is due to geographical reasons has to play on NA doesn't group up with people. Before it was irrelevant as you simply jump into the fray and make value. Now it is useless.

So, we'd better not play and seek for some other game. Look at the recent posts on the forum - you will see quite a lot of similar stories from the casuals. I hope the PvP elite will enjoy fighting each other in groups, will be a true test of skills. Without the casuals, tho, Cyro would simply lose its scale of "huge AvAvA battles" and hence lose its appeal as a PvP system.