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A statue at the entrance of the Hidden Moon Temple...

Eporem
Eporem
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Wondering who this would be of or who/what would it represent..

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  • Thevampirenight
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    It represents the Ohmes-Raht furstock.
    The khajiit have 17 unique furstocks.
    Ohmes-Raht take on an appearance that resembles a human, with light fur and a tail and can easily be mistaken for a human.
    So what you are seeing is a statue of a Ohme-Raht Khajiit.
    Ohmes- look just like bosmer don't have fur, they don't have any cat like features what so ever so you can't tell them apart from a Bosmer. They tend to be smaller then most Bosmer though. They paint their faces with more cat like features to avoid being mistaken for Bosmer.
    So those two furstocks are the least cat like of the Khajiit.
    In game its called Ohmes-Raht Statue, Trickster and its a furnishing you can get for your home.
    https://esoitem.uesp.net/itemLink.php?&itemid=151837&quality=5
    Edited by Thevampirenight on October 26, 2020 12:30AM
    PC NA
    Please add Fangs to Vampires.
  • Aliyavana
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  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Hello, guys. I will only support the fellow lore scholars here with some extra observation some might interesting - regarding a possible character depicted in the image of this statue. Here are some things we know:
    1. The statue is located at the entrance of the Temple of the Hidden Moon - a place of Azura's worship connected to the story of Lorkhaj.
    2. As the fellow players have already said it, the statue is called called "Ohmes-Raht Statue, Trickster".
    3. Some time ago before I finally made an arrangement of the religious data of different tamrielic nations, I performed the study of the Khajiiti religion (here). The results of that research showed that the modern Khajiiti religion was established 271 years before the events of ESO, in 2E 311, when the prophet and Mane Rid-Thar-ri'Datta revealed the Riddle'Thar Epiphany. According to the extant pre-ri'Datta Khajiiti religious texts by Amun-dro, the pre-ri'Datta religion did not view any of the ancient Khajiiti divines as a trickster. On the other hand, the new religion, Riddle'Thar, brings out such a character - "Lorkhaj tricked his siblings so that they were forced into this new place with Nirni. And many of Fadomai's children escaped and became the stars. And many of Fadomai's children died to make Nirni's path stable. And the survivors stayed and punished Lorkhaj. The children of Fadomai tore out the Heart of Lorkhaj and hid it deep within Nirni. And they said, "We curse you, noisy Lorkhaj, to walk Nirni for many phases."

    This makes me think that the Trickster depicted in the image of the statue could be Lorkhaj and that the age of the statue is not older than 2E 311, i.e. 271 years. On the other hand, the statue could still be much older, could be of the age of the temple itself, but the label in it's description could be changed relatively recently due to the religious changes in the Khajiiti society or be simply used according to the modern Khajiiti canon. Anyway, I think the closest resemblance of the character depicted there is Lorkhaj.
    Why is he depicted as an Ohmes-raht? Here is another observation here: as it was said earlier, there are 17 Khajiiti furstocks, indeed. I've also noticed there are exactly 17 Khajiiti gods in the modern Riddle'Thar pantheon - the 17 Khajiiti original spirits born in the three litters of Fadomai (if we also count Y'ffre who's not directly mentioned among the children of Ahnurr and Fadomai, but still mentioned as their equal, and both Jone and Jode as two separate spirits). Yes, we know how the furstocks are defined according to the moons phases - perhaps, different furstocks.. could resemble the appearance of each of the original spirits? Thus the Ohmes-raht furstock could possibly look like Lorkhaj himself (well, of course, if we presume that the Khajiiti faith is Truth). I'm not an expert in the Khajiiti lore, so I don't know the answer to this question yet. Perhaps an extra research is needed here.
  • Eporem
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    This makes me think that the Trickster depicted in the image of the statue could be Lorkhaj and that the age of the statue is not older than 2E 311, i.e. 271 years. On the other hand, the statue could still be much older, could be of the age of the temple itself, but the label in it's description could be changed relatively recently due to the religious changes in the Khajiiti society or be simply used according to the modern Khajiiti canon. Anyway, I think the closest resemblance of the character depicted there is Lorkhaj.
    Why is he depicted as an Ohmes-raht? Here is another observation here: as it was said earlier, there are 17 Khajiiti furstocks, indeed. I've also noticed there are exactly 17 Khajiiti gods in the modern Riddle'Thar pantheon - the 17 Khajiiti original spirits born in the three litters of Fadomai (if we also count Y'ffre who's not directly mentioned among the children of Ahnurr and Fadomai, but still mentioned as their equal, and both Jone and Jode as two separate spirits). Yes, we know how the furstocks are defined according to the moons phases - perhaps, different furstocks.. could resemble the appearance of each of the original spirits? Thus the Ohmes-raht furstock could possibly look like Lorkhaj himself (well, of course, if we presume that the Khajiiti faith is Truth). I'm not an expert in the Khajiiti lore, so I don't know the answer to this question yet. Perhaps an extra research is needed here.

    The age of these statues seems to me to be about the same age as the Temple of the Hidden Moon for there are other such statues scattered around, though many broken.

    I can see these statues depicting Lorkhaj as well... according to this lore, http://m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Words_of_Clan_Mother_Ahnissi the moons and their motions were created before the birth of Lorkhaj, so perhaps this statue of Ohmes-raht was built to symbolize Lorkhaj's birth time - when Masser was new, and Secunda waxing.

    pJaCuEs.jpg

    Masser does seem hidden in this phase, so I wonder too if this was the Great Darkness Fadomai fled to when giving birth to Lorkhaj.

    and a little note: would Fadomai have been the first Trickster when she tricked Ahnurr into giving birth to a third litter.


    Edited by Eporem on October 27, 2020 7:29PM
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    and a little note: would Fadomai have been the first Trickster when she tricked Ahnurr into giving birth to a third litter.

    Agreed with you up there, Eporem. I think it the same way, that it's more credible that the statue and the temple are of the same old age. Regarding your little note I quote here: at first I thought the same way too, but then I gave a closer look at the statue's details - they surely depict a male Ohmes-raht that made me exclude Fadomai from the list of possible options. So, only Lorkhaj was left there.
  • Eporem
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    another little question from reading this: http://m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Words_of_Clan_Mother_Ahnissi and maybe I am missing it from somewhere else...but if Fadomai gave gifts to all her children - what was/is the gift she gave to Lorkhaj....is it the Great Darkness?


    Edited by Eporem on October 28, 2020 11:58PM
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    another little question from reading this: http://m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Words_of_Clan_Mother_Ahnissi and maybe I am missing it from somewhere else...but if Fadomai gave gifts to all her children - what was/is the gift she gave to Lorkhaj....is it the Great Darkness?

    No gift. She gave gifts in the order of births she gave, but died before it was Lorkhaj's turn to receive one.
  • Eporem
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    sooo sad - for what would he know of his purpose..and even if the Clan Mother Ahnissi may have mixed up the birthtime of the Moons ( how could Fadomai have known of them when she gifted Hermorah) - it does seem Lorkhaj was her last.
  • Satribe101
    Satribe101
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    Ohmes- look just like bosmer don't have fur, they don't have any cat like features what so ever so you can't tell them apart

    Except for the statues tale?
  • Eporem
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    Satribe101 wrote: »
    Ohmes- look just like bosmer don't have fur, they don't have any cat like features what so ever so you can't tell them apart

    Except for the statues tale?

    The statue would be an Ohmes-Raht, who have tails, I think the Ohmes might not have these.
  • Satribe101
    Satribe101
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    I let my small objection get over taken by my attempt at humor. In context, the quote I referenced does indeed mention the Ohmes-raht and that the statue is this variety. What drew my attention and what I was intending to draw attention to was the specific phrasing "..don't have any cat like features what so ever.." I believe that to be overstating. In Interview With Three Booksellers we have: "They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter." It doesn't mention they do not have tails, but specifically including the mention of a tail and light fur in connection with the Ohmes-raht is enough to support the assumption that the Ohmes do not. This also allows for the Khajiit of Arena to be Ohmes because no tail can be seen, yet allow for the Khajiit of Daggerfall to be Ohmes-raht because of the visible tail. While I believe that it is possible the comment description is true, I have yet to find any conclusive evidence beyond a similar statement in the Fandom wiki.
  • Aliyavana
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    Satribe101 wrote: »
    I let my small objection get over taken by my attempt at humor. In context, the quote I referenced does indeed mention the Ohmes-raht and that the statue is this variety. What drew my attention and what I was intending to draw attention to was the specific phrasing "..don't have any cat like features what so ever.." I believe that to be overstating. In Interview With Three Booksellers we have: "They are like the Bosmer, but sometimes shorter." It doesn't mention they do not have tails, but specifically including the mention of a tail and light fur in connection with the Ohmes-raht is enough to support the assumption that the Ohmes do not. This also allows for the Khajiit of Arena to be Ohmes because no tail can be seen, yet allow for the Khajiit of Daggerfall to be Ohmes-raht because of the visible tail. While I believe that it is possible the comment description is true, I have yet to find any conclusive evidence beyond a similar statement in the Fandom wiki.

    For Khajiiti lore, you want to look at UESP's page which was greatly expanded by me, and is up to date with all of ESO's additions. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit
    Edited by Aliyavana on November 10, 2020 9:01AM
  • Iccotak
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    a reminder that the space between north and southern Elsweyr is still empty when it should have been included in 2019

    guess we'll see them in a different dlc
  • Richard_Arisen
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    @Cygemai_Hlervu We don't know for certain that "the pre-ri'Datta religion did not view any of the ancient Khajiiti divines as a trickster." Amun-dro is just one priest commenting on one sect of one of the many fractured versions (sixteen, according to Thava-ko) of the religion that the Khajiit propagated before it was codified by the Riddle'Thar cult. It's very possible, and perhaps even likely, that some of those versions saw Lorkhaj as a trickster too, and some probably reviled him as something much worse, like parts of the modern religion do currently.

    Furthermore, Lorkhaj isn't the only trickster in Khajiiti culture. Rahjin is a pretty big one. Doubtless there are more. Granted, his Shadows don't appear as Ohmes-raht, so it's almost certainly not him. But, like I said, plenty of other tricksters to choose from.

    Ultimately, I don't think the fact that the statue is called "Trickster" is a reference to any particular person or deity, and more just a description of its posture. There's also a thing called "Tojay Statue, Dancer." Are we going to make up some connection to how the Moons dance in the sky or something? I think it's a lot more likely that these are just generic statues representing important aspects of Khajiiti culture: trickster, dancer, warrior, monk, nimble bishop. The statues representing actual people or deities tend to be named or referenced as such: (i.e. "Pride of Alkosh Hero," "The Mane," etc.).

    Also, I'm not entirely sure where you're getting 17 furstocks from. There are only 16 different lunar morphologies. The Mane is not counted as a separate furstock. I think one source says the Mane isn't different in appearance from any other Khajiit. And we see that in ESO.

    Also, just because the Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi doesn't specifically name any other deities, doesn't mean that they didn't exist or weren't recognised. The book does specifically say "and many others" when listing those she births in the Second Litter. Again, the more likely scenario is that Ahnissi chose to expand on the stories of only a few specific ones, but the others still existed and were known.

    And why would a post-ri'Datta society make a statue of Lorkhaj anyway? That just doesn't make much sense.
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    @Cygemai_Hlervu We don't know for certain that "the pre-ri'Datta religion did not view any of the ancient Khajiiti divines as a trickster." Amun-dro is just one priest commenting on one sect of one of the many fractured versions (sixteen, according to Thava-ko) of the religion that the Khajiit propagated before it was codified by the Riddle'Thar cult. It's very possible, and perhaps even likely, that some of those versions saw Lorkhaj as a trickster too, and some probably reviled him as something much worse, like parts of the modern religion do currently.

    This is an example of a purely idealistic way of thinking, i.e. the one that has nothing common with reality. "Does the Russel's tea pot exist in Oblivion? Surely it can since there is no certain evidence that it cannot!". Just the same thing here.. Don't multiply entities without necessity, Richard. Amun-dro is not "just one priest commenting on one sect of one of the many fractured versions" - he is the only one we have today. If we follow your way of thinking we'll end up with the conclusion that everything is possible. But since we speak of the in-game reality existing today, speculations like yours here are pointless and endless like the very imagination. Let's leave idealism to roleplayers and their backstories existing only in their minds, here we discuss the lore already depicted with only the statue's image origins left for speculation since we have clues, but do not have a direct answer to the question on who's depicted there.
    Furthermore, Lorkhaj isn't the only trickster in Khajiiti culture. Rahjin is a pretty big one. Doubtless there are more. Granted, his Shadows don't appear as Ohmes-raht, so it's almost certainly not him. But, like I said, plenty of other tricksters to choose from.

    What number exactly among those "plenty" you speak of? Maybe you could share their names?.. Nevertheless, I have to agree and to thank you for reminding me of Rajhin - I have to admit I completely forgot of him while writing that post. You are also correct that it's not him depicted on the statue - originally Rajhin was a mortal and since Amun-dro does not mention him in his work, I have no reasons to think he was divinated by the Khajiiti priesthood prior to the Riddle'Thar Epiphany. Regarding of "doubtless there are more" trickster deities - if you wrote it all not for the sake to argue with me, then give the list of names of those tricksters and direct links to the sources that will show that "doubtlessness" so we could have an object to study and discuss. Until then those words of yours are.. Well, I guess, you understand it..
    Ultimately, I don't think the fact that the statue is called "Trickster" is a reference to any particular person or deity, and more just a description of its posture. There's also a thing called "Tojay Statue, Dancer." Are we going to make up some connection to how the Moons dance in the sky or something? I think it's a lot more likely that these are just generic statues representing important aspects of Khajiiti culture: trickster, dancer, warrior, monk, nimble bishop. The statues representing actual people or deities tend to be named or referenced as such: (i.e. "Pride of Alkosh Hero," "The Mane," etc.)

    Finally, something polite there (along with the reminding of Rajhin). Well, this opinion of yours is possible. I had just shared mine up there just like you did it in the quote, and I hadn't mentioned at all that my opinion on the statue's origin depicting exactly Lorkhaj was true. I marked it three times in that post. Read that post again.
    Also, I'm not entirely sure where you're getting 17 furstocks from. There are only 16 different lunar morphologies. The Mane is not counted as a separate furstock. I think one source says the Mane isn't different in appearance from any other Khajiit. And we see that in ESO.

    So, what is that source then, why don't you give the link? Some of mine are these:
    1. A PGE Imperial source - "Over twenty forms have been documented among the catmen of Elsweyr, and, in their own society at least, no one of them is more important or inherently better than another (with the exception of the Mane form, to be described shortly)";
    2. Moon Bishop Hunal - "Indeed, curious one, there are truly seventeen distinct furstocks of Khajiiti, but do not be taken in by the exaggerations of Imperial propaganda";
    3. Another source saying that the Mane is]/i] counted as a separate furstock:
    Ja'darri - "Ja'darri was born under eclipsed Moons, yet was destined to never become Mane";
    The Pride of Alkosh - "They come to us as cubs, born under the dark eclipse. They are Forgotten Manes, destined to never rule";
    Look at the appearance of those Tullar-dra, Zebiden-jo, Rid-Thar-ri'Datta, Akkhuz-ri, Shazah or Khali Manes - they are all of the same furstock. As we see it, Manes are both a furstock and a rank and according to the sources I mentioned, those Manes by birth who do not become Manes by rank are called the Forgotten Manes.

    Also, just because the Words of Clan Mother Ahnissi doesn't specifically name any other deities, doesn't mean that they didn't exist or weren't recognised. The book does specifically say "and many others" when listing those she births in the Second Litter. Again, the more likely scenario is that Ahnissi chose to expand on the stories of only a few specific ones, but the others still existed and were known

    Richard, I will not discuss idealism anymore, sorry. It's just stupid, pointless and a waste of time. Ahnissi speaks nothing of, say, Jesus there (place any other name unmentioned in Ahnissi's list here) either - should we presume he was among them too? She named the members of the original litters who became the Khajiiti gods. The "many others" of them who are not named there did not become the Khajiiti gods. Why is it that hard to understand? Once again, don't multiply entities without necessity.
  • Richard_Arisen
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    @Cygemai_Hlervu I'll try to clarify some things.

    1. I said "tricksters," not "trickster deities." Khajiit do have many tricksters in their culture. The Baan Dar's Boast quest in Reaper's March proves that well enough, among countless other examples of Khajiiti reverence for trickery. All I meant to say there was that it doesn't have to take a deity for Khajiit to want to idolise tricksters with a statue.

    2. It's not speculation. It is specifically said in a lorebook from the same zone as Amun-dro's books that Khajiiti religion was actually that fractured in the past. At worst it's extrapolation. There were at least 16 uncodified versions of the religion--logically, that implies that they were different enough from each other that they couldn't agree on much past the basics. Speaking of which, the modern religion had to come from somewhere. Ri'Datta didn't just invent all the gods and their qualities. The dro-M'athra existed back then. Namiira existed back then. Lorkhaj has always had a connection to them. If the modern religion vilifies him for it, it absolutely makes sense that some of the older sects would have shared similar views.

    Thus, while Amun-dro's accounts are the only ones that we have, they logically were not the only ones that there were. They're just the only ones known to have survived the Riddle'Thar cult's purge so far. Saying that more may have existed, and may still exist undiscovered, is not idealism, and neither is pointing out that Fadomai is said to have given birth to "many others" besides those that were listed in the book. It's just a logical extrapolation to think that this probably includes the other Daedric equivalents, the Magna Ge, and the Earth Bones ("And many of Fadomai's children escaped and became the stars. And many of Fadomai's children died to make Nirni's path stable.")

    She also didn't name all of the members of the original litters. Noctra, Boethra, Molagh, Varmina--those were all missing, but the Khajiit did recognise them. She also never mentioned Y'ffer's litter, despite mentioning the god himself, so it's clear that she's left some things out. We don't have to speculate to see that--it's literally there in how the story is written. Never mind the fact that, again, she is one person putting forth one interpretation of the religion. Other leaders and other priests have other things to say, even if they share the core beliefs. Ahnissi's blurbs about Hermorah and Mafala seem fairly innocuous, yet Thava-ko, who is presumably writing from the same post-ri'Datta beliefs, paints them as super sinister in her treatise regarding Amun-dro.

    3. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/The_Elsweyr_Confederacy

    "The Mane is no more a "breed" of khajiit than the other, more common forms of the catmen; he is simply unique. Khajiit tradition holds that only one Mane can be alive at any one time; indeed, they believe that there is only one Mane, who is simply reborn in different bodies."

    Granted, yes, this is the same book that also purports that there are over 20 forms of Khajiit, which we know is not true. It is full of in-universe bias from an outside race. But most of TES lore is like that--not wholly reliable due to being written by characters from within the universe itself. This book was written to give insight, from both an in-universe and out-of-universe perspective. And while not all of its in-universe facts are correct, the out-of-universe insights it gives can't just be written off.

    4. As a roleplayer myself, I can attest that not all of us are so casual and careless. I take absolute rigours to ensure that my characters and their backstories follow from logical extrapolations. Do I stick to only hard lore and everything that's written explicitly? No, admittedly. And the people who do that tend to be elitist jerks. But I take great care to reference all the lore I can to make sure that my extrapolations could feasibly occur within the thematic structure of the world, personally.

    That said, again, I don't think my arguments in points 1 and 2 fall under that level of extrapolation. We're literally told what the blanks are, and even partially how they might be filled.
  • Eporem
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    After reading these two recent comments above, I found myself yet again reading of Azurah, and of the words of the Clan Mother Ahnissi to see again what/who this statue might represent, and think another possibility would be, because this Hidden Moon temple is a dedication to Azurah , that this statue could be a representation of her first secret, or of the time when the forest people were torn between man and beast. Of the time when Azurah came to Nirni and tricked her into allowing the creation of the Khajiit.
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    After reading these two recent comments above, I found myself yet again reading of Azurah, and of the words of the Clan Mother Ahnissi to see again what/who this statue might represent, and think another possibility would be, because this Hidden Moon temple is a dedication to Azurah , that this statue could be a representation of her first secret, or of the time when the forest people were torn between man and beast. Of the time when Azurah came to Nirni and tricked her into allowing the creation of the Khajiit.

    I'd agree on such a possibility, Eporem, but the statue depicts definitively a male Khajiit. We can speculate further on the genders of the Daedra, on how could they be all depicted generally, etc., but in order to do so we first have to have reasons for that towards this particular statue. Yet I don't see a reason to that statue be depicting Azurah.
  • Eporem
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    Eporem wrote: »
    After reading these two recent comments above, I found myself yet again reading of Azurah, and of the words of the Clan Mother Ahnissi to see again what/who this statue might represent, and think another possibility would be, because this Hidden Moon temple is a dedication to Azurah , that this statue could be a representation of her first secret, or of the time when the forest people were torn between man and beast. Of the time when Azurah came to Nirni and tricked her into allowing the creation of the Khajiit.

    I'd agree on such a possibility, Eporem, but the statue depicts definitively a male Khajiit. We can speculate further on the genders of the Daedra, on how could they be all depicted generally, etc., but in order to do so we first have to have reasons for that towards this particular statue. Yet I don't see a reason to that statue be depicting Azurah.

    maybe it might depict a representation, a what and not a who.:)
  • Aigym_Hlervu
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    Eporem wrote: »
    Eporem wrote: »
    After reading these two recent comments above, I found myself yet again reading of Azurah, and of the words of the Clan Mother Ahnissi to see again what/who this statue might represent, and think another possibility would be, because this Hidden Moon temple is a dedication to Azurah , that this statue could be a representation of her first secret, or of the time when the forest people were torn between man and beast. Of the time when Azurah came to Nirni and tricked her into allowing the creation of the Khajiit.

    I'd agree on such a possibility, Eporem, but the statue depicts definitively a male Khajiit. We can speculate further on the genders of the Daedra, on how could they be all depicted generally, etc., but in order to do so we first have to have reasons for that towards this particular statue. Yet I don't see a reason to that statue be depicting Azurah.

    maybe it might depict a representation, a what and not a who.:)

    Perhaps :)! We can only guess on it :)!..
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