Why do PVE has to suffer because of PVP problems?

Tapio75

Just that. Many times over the years, my characters have retained their abilities in cosmetic manner, but keeping thenm useful because something is bis in PVP has made it useless in PVE after nerf.

Cant we just get a separate... COMPLETELY separate effects for spells and abilities in PVP versus PVE so that if one has a problem, other does not need to be frustrated because of the other players problems moving to my side of play.

It just feels like when they are trying to fix something in PVP side, they just move that problem to my play in worse degree than it was in PVP. Cant people who do PVP handle dying from other players? I mean being killed by NPC is far worse than being killed by another player who can actually think and adjust or what is this thing that constantly makes things change to the worse and rthen good and then worse again in never ending loop that frustrates me quite a bit?

Firstmep

Actually, this works both ways, skill/sets etc have been changed many times beacuse they were deemed too strong in pve.

Thrassian stranglers while very powerful in pvp before the nerf, had a huge downside too, and they were mostly allright.

In pve it was useb by basically everyone, and so it got nerfed.

Just one example of many.

Also ZOS doesnt look at things like pve or pvp players, at the end of the day we are all just players.

The game has both pve and pvp, its about time everyone accepted that.

Ladislao

Tapio75 wrote: »

Cant we just get a separate... COMPLETELY separate effects for spells and abilities in PVP versus PVE so that if one has a problem, other does not need to be frustrated because of the other players problems moving to my side of play.

No, we can't. Abilities and sets should work as similarly as possible regardless of the game mode. Playing a different class on the same character would have frustrated me a lot more. And it would be confusing as well.

Moreover, if you think that this will immediately solve all the problems, then you are deeply mistaken. You can ask other MMO players.

Tapio75

Firstmep wrote: »

Actually, this works both ways, skill/sets etc have been changed many times beacuse they were deemed too strong in pve.

Thrassian stranglers while very powerful in pvp before the nerf, had a huge downside too, and they were mostly allright.

In pve it was useb by basically everyone, and so it got nerfed.

Just one example of many.

Also ZOS doesnt look at things like pve or pvp players, at the end of the day we are all just players.

The game has both pve and pvp, its about time everyone accepted that.

Indeed, though i just see things from PVE side and because i care very litle for meta, some changes hit me hard while others do litle. Would it not be better to have both playstyles separated because that would give better handling of things for developers on both sides? I mean other games can do it so ESO can do it as well if they choose to and have skill for that sorrt of thing. PVP being separated from PVE in Warcraft made both sides much better that it was before nerfinmg here and there always made other side suffer and get problems which they did not have before changes on the other side.

On my part, couple examples that made fun exist less in gameplay.

-Wrecking blow. This ability used to be fun to use on my 2 hander character because it actually had an impact on enemies. Tossing goblins around with this skill was much fun plus an occasional surprise tossing of a gurad was fun to do as well. Now that blow is like any other. It hits the enemy and has spreadsheet effects that do damage and stuff, but the enemies mostly seem to be unaffected by the hit like nothing is actualy hitting them. They are being hit hard by a giant axe for crying out loud... Should that have some visual impact on the enemy as well? I heard this was annoying for player in PVP who could not block attacks so it got changed-

Many other CC abilities that made mage feel like mage were also nerfed due PVP.

Destructive clench which was my favorite skill on destro staff has no DoT anymore, so hitting enemies with that takes for ever in conjuction with other skills and in general, destro staves feel currently quite weak for me, though i guess using optimal builds makes them good but thats not the RP way to do stuff..

Every change to those i noticed, i read stuff on forums and apparently they like many other, were made because of problmd on PVP side. Problems need fixing, but having them moved from PVP to PVE or other way around is not a very good solution though it keeps developers employed i guess.

Recapitated

Tapio75 wrote: »

.
Though i guess using optimal builds makes them good but thats not the RP way to do stuff..

To be fair, while there's a meta in PvP because it's a literal arms race, and there is to some extent a meta in PvE, there's not really one way to RP that ZOS can balance around.

You also just can't follow people's power fantasies to their logical conclusion. Wrecking blow is, visually, practically a heavy attack, but doesn't mean we can put a stun at the end of every giant axe heavy attack.

Firstmep wrote: »

Actually, this works both ways, skill/sets etc have been changed many times beacuse they were deemed too strong in pve.

Thrassian stranglers while very powerful in pvp before the nerf, had a huge downside too, and they were mostly allright.
In pve it was useb by basically everyone, and so it got nerfed.

You're a stamplar right? I can't comment myself but were the Burning Light changes PvE-driven?

Personally I think it's good that sets are balanced around just one environment, it's one of the few things ZOS can do to balance separately.

Tapio75

Recapitated wrote: »

You also just can't follow people's power fantasies to their logical conclusion. Wrecking blow is, visually, practically a heavy attack, but doesn't mean we can put a stun at the end of every giant axe heavy attack.

Wrecking blow is just one attack which haad that fun toss aadded to it. In my opinion, a better change would have been to remove the toss and stun from PVP and keep ot in PVE. Maybe have disorient on PVP instead of toss/stun. Other abilities have that toss still happening so it does not feel consistent or logical to just remove it from one that actually had some connection in terms of weapons impact force on it unlike templars javelin for example or destructive clench on flame staff though that could easily have magick explanation to that effect.

Stun on wrecking blow also had a cooldown, so you could not chain toss/stun your enemies at all though in PVP you coukld with some team wok though that problem would have been easily remedied by simply removing the toss/stun on PVP side and have disorient instead..

There are few abilities that have slightly different effect on PVP compared to PVE which makes them easier to make good for both sides while keeping the base principles same.

I currently dont PVP though i do explore Cyrodil on occasion but what would really make me to go and do PVP is to remove CP and SET bonuses from PVP completely so that you only have the base skills and player capability to use them effectively to make battles more about skill rather than about gear. In terms of that, all items should count as white quality in PVP as well. Gear and CP plays too big a role in PVP in every MMO out there.In any case games like these have multiple vartiables that constantly change both in players en, on server side and path between them which makes balancing a futile attempt in general. Not to mention many complaint usually come from lack of skill rather than somethinhg actually being broke. Should one player or uncoordinated group actually be able to win coordinated group that can play well? No.

Recapitated

I'm just saying there's no way to make it all follow the visual effects perfectly.

Now you can actually dswing mobs in pve without breaking stacks or your tank being unable to control them afterwards and you can LA weave it, meaning in another section of PvE that change made 2h more viable not less. Before that it was annoyance for everyone else, like DK's leap is. Even within PvE I think the feel of the game vs. balance/viability concerns are never going to make everybody happy.

And the difference is while you're going to be able to kill goblins with or without the knockback, there are competitive elements to endgame pve and pvp that make imbalance really, really not fun.

You've alluded to that yourself: set quality, availability, etc. But those are things you can mostly control. If you're not happy that your sets aren't golded (I never do that except for weapons, and often only frontbar) you can do something about it, and honestly right now is a really good time to play stam if you want to wear crafted sets. If dswing is broken OP in pvp you have to play a stam character to even have a chance.

Joy_Division

Because it's the developers who make these decisions.

And many of their decisions: balance by spreadsheet approach, standardizing every class skill, the constant adjustments in traits and mundas stones that have many of us blowing our transmute crystals, light / heavy attack change, the major / minor buff system, revamping a Nightblade skills, et al. were not motivated by PvP.

VaranisArano

The less-biased version of this question is simply: "Why does ZOS insist on balancing PVE and PVP together?"

When you phrase it like that, its easier to get at the root causes that persist from patch to patch.

The primary cause is simply that, since One Tamriel, ZOS has embraced Horizontal Progression, which requires constant changes in both PVE and PVP to keep players feeling like there is "progression" and keep the meta fresh. Balancing them together means there's always things to change. Moreover, balancing them together means that ZOS always has a ready excuse for why this endless cycle of change for the sake of change is actually necessary.

Its important to note that even if ZOS decided tomorrow to balance PVP and PVE separately, as long as they use Horizontal Progression they will continue to change the now separate meta each patch. Gotta shake up the meta somehow so players will play different builds and grind for different gear.

Everest_Lionheart

Firstmep wrote: »

Actually, this works both ways, skill/sets etc have been changed many times beacuse they were deemed too strong in pve.

Thrassian stranglers while very powerful in pvp before the nerf, had a huge downside too, and they were mostly allright.

In pve it was useb by basically everyone, and so it got nerfed.

Just one example of many.

Also ZOS doesnt look at things like pve or pvp players, at the end of the day we are all just players.

The game has both pve and pvp, its about time everyone accepted that.

And even more knee jerk reactions to come soon I would bet. Parse videos from stam toons are hitting the net now and doing 110K+ and that’s on stam classes people were calling dead just a few short weeks ago. There are 1 bar builds hitting that high, and that is probably way above the threshold that they want us to be able to hit. I mean @90k you are skipping mechanics. The nerfs are going to hit very hard in the patch after Markarth. So my fellow stam toons that have been waiting patiently on the sidelines get ready for your 15 minutes of fame followed by extreme nerfs back the other direction.

Wolfpaw

"Why do PVE has to suffer because of PVP problems?"

Tapio75 wrote: »

Just that. Many times over the years, my characters have retained their abilities in cosmetic manner, but keeping thenm useful because something is bis in PVP has made it useless in PVE after nerf.

Cant we just get a separate... COMPLETELY separate effects for spells and abilities in PVP versus PVE so that if one has a problem, other does not need to be frustrated because of the other players problems moving to my side of play.

It just feels like when they are trying to fix something in PVP side, they just move that problem to my play in worse degree than it was in PVP. Cant people who do PVP handle dying from other players? I mean being killed by NPC is far worse than being killed by another player who can actually think and adjust or what is this thing that constantly makes things change to the worse and rthen good and then worse again in never ending loop that frustrates me quite a bit?

Actually Cyrodiil (PvP) was here first as ESO endgame. ESO was marketed as a pvp mmorpg, by a "pvp" Dark Age of Camelot dev lead Matt Firor.

Pvp has taken a huge hit in balance & performance to please pve players with housing, trials, arenas, non combat pets, & the constant carrot to chase...add no cp bg's/pvp in the mix of "balance" & it's a mess.

Some sort of separation would be nice.

Batmanna

I strongly agree that way more changes shud be tied to battle spirit, but don't blame a game aspect for issues in another. Balance shud be done not based on the "feeling" of being killed by a player or a NPC, but shud be something granted by a competent team.
Blaming a part of the community for issues in game is just short sighted.
PvP balance atm is a joke thanks to proc sets overturned in order to "compete" with meta PvE sets on a train dummy, and the PvP community is rightfully blaming the poor work of the balance team instead of bashing the PvE player base.

Goregrinder

From the time I started playing during Beta 2013, until now, it has always worked both ways. PVP has suffered because of changes made specifically for PVE. It's never been a one way street.

hakan

Tapio75 wrote: »

Recapitated wrote: »

You also just can't follow people's power fantasies to their logical conclusion. Wrecking blow is, visually, practically a heavy attack, but doesn't mean we can put a stun at the end of every giant axe heavy attack.

Wrecking blow is just one attack which haad that fun toss aadded to it. In my opinion, a better change would have been to remove the toss and stun from PVP and keep ot in PVE. Maybe have disorient on PVP instead of toss/stun. Other abilities have that toss still happening so it does not feel consistent or logical to just remove it from one that actually had some connection in terms of weapons impact force on it unlike templars javelin for example or destructive clench on flame staff though that could easily have magick explanation to that effect.

Stun on wrecking blow also had a cooldown, so you could not chain toss/stun your enemies at all though in PVP you coukld with some team wok though that problem would have been easily remedied by simply removing the toss/stun on PVP side and have disorient instead..

There are few abilities that have slightly different effect on PVP compared to PVE which makes them easier to make good for both sides while keeping the base principles same.

I currently dont PVP though i do explore Cyrodil on occasion but what would really make me to go and do PVP is to remove CP and SET bonuses from PVP completely so that you only have the base skills and player capability to use them effectively to make battles more about skill rather than about gear. In terms of that, all items should count as white quality in PVP as well. Gear and CP plays too big a role in PVP in every MMO out there.In any case games like these have multiple vartiables that constantly change both in players en, on server side and path between them which makes balancing a futile attempt in general. Not to mention many complaint usually come from lack of skill rather than somethinhg actually being broke. Should one player or uncoordinated group actually be able to win coordinated group that can play well? No.

what?? no! nobody cares about that stuff. sets and other stuff needed for builds.

zos did pve pvp thingy years ago and they can still do it again. ambush used to stun everyone then changed to stun pve only and snare pvp only. then got removed all together.

MirandaSharp

Because "enemy" is the same as "player". They need to separate these two to mean PvE and PvP. They should make it clear on the tooltip.

El_Borracho

Its a universal effect on both sides. There are just more PVE players so the complaints are more widespread. I primarily PVE so I can recall most of the recent "injustices" done to Zaan, Iceheart, and sorc shields than something like 7th Legion getting nerfed or bashing being nuked to the ground

kathandira

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 4 meter radius.


Don't ever let anyone tell you they cannot do it. They CHOOSE not to do it across the board. But they certain CAN.

VaranisArano

El_Borracho wrote: »

Its a universal effect on both sides. There are just more PVE players so the complaints are more widespread. I primarily PVE so I can recall most of the recent "injustices" done to Zaan, Iceheart, and sorc shields than something like 7th Legion getting nerfed or bashing being nuked to the ground

There's this, but also most PVP players are used to being on the receiving end of whatever gear is most powerful as well as using it themselves. In PVE, the vast majority of players are the ones using the powerful gear, but only the bosses are on the receiving end. PVEers generally look at gear as making it easier for them, without considering that PVE, like PVP, has a desired level of difficulty that must be kept balanced.

There's a reason one of my common points in these sorts of discussions is that PVEers are blindsided when their powerful gear gets nerfed for PVE reasons because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of Trial Bosses don't have forum accounts. If they did, PVEers would hear about those overused, overpowered "PVE" sets killing the bosses too quickly or making it too hard to kill the group.

You get a lot of whining from PVPers who don't have the perspective to think much beyond "it killed me or I can't kill it, nerf it!" But when the majority of the PVP community is agreeing "This is killing us too quickly or its too hard for us to kill this", its a pretty fair bet that ZOS will be nerfing something that, on reflection, was probably overused and overpowered in more than just PVP.

kathandira

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's this, but also most PVP players are used to being on the receiving end of whatever gear is most powerful as well as using it themselves. In PVE, the vast majority of players are the ones using the powerful gear, but only the bosses are on the receiving end. PVEers generally look at gear as making it easier for them, without considering that PVE, like PVP, has a desired level of difficulty that must be kept balanced.

While that is true to an extent, the Random Dungeon queue kinda contradicts that.

There is a vast difference in difficulty in Veteran Fungal Grotto 1, to Veteran Castle Thorn. Yet they are all thrown in the same queue when you choose to do a Random.

If you are only strong enough to do a Vet Dungeon as easy as VFG1, you will be useless in VCT.

ZoS doesn't do a great job at balancing things.

kathandira

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's a reason one of my common points in these sorts of discussions is that PVEers are blindsided when their powerful gear gets nerfed for PVE reasons because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of Trial Bosses don't have forum accounts. If they did, PVEers would hear about those overused, overpowered "PVE" sets killing the bosses too quickly or making it too hard to kill the group.

; ) The Account for the bosses in the Dev's metrics. I would hope they are observing how quickly bosses are killed, and what gear/class/skill combos are being used to do so.

After all, that was what they said about Thrassian's, that they felt that PvE'rs were doing way too much damage in Trials, so they nerfed it. Which is honestly one of the few times i've heard that sort of feedback from the Devs.

Recapitated

kathandira wrote: »

Vicious Death
LEVEL 50 - CP 160
Type PvP
Set bonus
(2 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(4 items) Adds 833 Spell Critical
(5 items) Adds 1487 Spell Penetration, When you kill a Player, they violently explode for 22940 Flame Damage to all other enemies in a 4 meter radius.

Don't ever let anyone tell you they cannot do it. They CHOOSE not to do it across the board. But they certain CAN.

Thing is if ZOS hadn't put those words in people would be using Vicious Death in PVE for the meme and complaining that it's been taken away from them once ZOS decides to narrow its use to PVP.

VaranisArano

kathandira wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's a reason one of my common points in these sorts of discussions is that PVEers are blindsided when their powerful gear gets nerfed for PVE reasons because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of Trial Bosses don't have forum accounts. If they did, PVEers would hear about those overused, overpowered "PVE" sets killing the bosses too quickly or making it too hard to kill the group.

; ) The Account for the bosses in the Dev's metrics. I would hope they are observing how quickly bosses are killed, and what gear/class/skill combos are being used to do so.

After all, that was what they said about Thrassian's, that they felt that PvE'rs were doing way too much damage in Trials, so they nerfed it. Which is honestly one of the few times i've heard that sort of feedback from the Devs.

The Devs most certainly do keep track of those metrics! But they don't usually share those metrics with the players, so PVEers are often completely blindsided by the idea that:
"What, you mean PVE healing might be too strong?"
"What, you mean this set might be overused in PVE?"
(Thrassians is a perfect example - how many PVE players expected it to be nerfed ahead of time when ZOS came out and said "Its too powerful"? I know I heard at least a few "Blame the PVPers" even after ZOS explicitly said otherwise.)


The Devs are getting better at sharing that feedback in the last combat updates, but because PVE players tend not to pay attention to power creep or see those metrics for themselves, it feeds this idea that unless the Devs explicitly state that something was nerfed for a PVE reason, that PVP is to blame.

Things like the Murkmire healing nerfs were particularly egregious examples of this dynamic. If ZOS wanted to nerf PVP healing only, they already use Battlespirit to do so. So when the nerfs hit PVE too, there were clearly PVE reasons to nerf healing driving that decision. But, nooooo, clearly it must be the fault of those awful whiny PVPers.

In short, I find that many PVEers are way too quick to blame PVPers 100% without looking at the PVE reasons for why ZOS nerfed PVE. Why is that? Well, its because most PVEers think about sets, skills, and classes only in terms of how hard it is for them to do what they want, as opposed to considering how hard ZOS wants something to be and that, for ZOS, content becoming easier for PVEers is not necessarily a good thing. If they did consider that - or if the Trials Bosses had forum accounts with which to share the other side of it - they wouldn't be perpetually blindsided when ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons.


On the other side, its a lot more obvious to the average PVPer when a build is legitimately overperforming. The metrics are a lot more apparent, so to speak.

kathandira

VaranisArano wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's a reason one of my common points in these sorts of discussions is that PVEers are blindsided when their powerful gear gets nerfed for PVE reasons because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of Trial Bosses don't have forum accounts. If they did, PVEers would hear about those overused, overpowered "PVE" sets killing the bosses too quickly or making it too hard to kill the group.

; ) The Account for the bosses in the Dev's metrics. I would hope they are observing how quickly bosses are killed, and what gear/class/skill combos are being used to do so.

After all, that was what they said about Thrassian's, that they felt that PvE'rs were doing way too much damage in Trials, so they nerfed it. Which is honestly one of the few times i've heard that sort of feedback from the Devs.

The Devs most certainly do keep track of those metrics! But they don't usually share those metrics with the players, so PVEers are often completely blindsided by the idea that:
"What, you mean PVE healing might be too strong?"
"What, you mean this set might be overused in PVE?"
(Thrassians is a perfect example - how many PVE players expected it to be nerfed ahead of time when ZOS came out and said "Its too powerful"? I know I heard at least a few "Blame the PVPers" even after ZOS explicitly said otherwise.)


The Devs are getting better at sharing that feedback in the last combat updates, but because PVE players tend not to pay attention to power creep or see those metrics for themselves, it feeds this idea that unless the Devs explicitly state that something was nerfed for a PVE reason, that PVP is to blame.

Things like the Murkmire healing nerfs were particularly egregious examples of this dynamic. If ZOS wanted to nerf PVP healing only, they already use Battlespirit to do so. So when the nerfs hit PVE too, there were clearly PVE reasons to nerf healing driving that decision. But, nooooo, clearly it must be the fault of those awful whiny PVPers.

In short, I find that many PVEers are way too quick to blame PVPers 100% without looking at the PVE reasons for why ZOS nerfed PVE. Why is that? Well, its because most PVEers think about sets, skills, and classes only in terms of how hard it is for them to do what they want, as opposed to considering how hard ZOS wants something to be and that, for ZOS, content becoming easier for PVEers is not necessarily a good thing. If they did consider that - or if the Trials Bosses had forum accounts with which to share the other side of it - they wouldn't be perpetually blindsided when ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons.


On the other side, its a lot more obvious to the average PVPer when a build is legitimately overperforming. The metrics are a lot more apparent, so to speak.

In regards to Nerfing things for the sake that enemies in Dungeons and Trials are beaten too easily. I wonder if they consider the bottom half of players. The top half will find it to be a set back, and will overcome it, and still complete the content. This is evident as people are still completing content. However the lower portion of the population could end up locked out of the content due to the lower effectiveness of their skills or gear. I'd really like to see more action taken to raise the floor up a bit rather than lowering the ceiling.

AMeanOne

PVEers need to accept the fact that not all nerfs come from pvp. I see people say PVEers never cry for nerfs, but those people need to open their eyes a bit wider.

VaranisArano

kathandira wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

There's a reason one of my common points in these sorts of discussions is that PVEers are blindsided when their powerful gear gets nerfed for PVE reasons because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of Trial Bosses don't have forum accounts. If they did, PVEers would hear about those overused, overpowered "PVE" sets killing the bosses too quickly or making it too hard to kill the group.

; ) The Account for the bosses in the Dev's metrics. I would hope they are observing how quickly bosses are killed, and what gear/class/skill combos are being used to do so.

After all, that was what they said about Thrassian's, that they felt that PvE'rs were doing way too much damage in Trials, so they nerfed it. Which is honestly one of the few times i've heard that sort of feedback from the Devs.

The Devs most certainly do keep track of those metrics! But they don't usually share those metrics with the players, so PVEers are often completely blindsided by the idea that:
"What, you mean PVE healing might be too strong?"
"What, you mean this set might be overused in PVE?"
(Thrassians is a perfect example - how many PVE players expected it to be nerfed ahead of time when ZOS came out and said "Its too powerful"? I know I heard at least a few "Blame the PVPers" even after ZOS explicitly said otherwise.)


The Devs are getting better at sharing that feedback in the last combat updates, but because PVE players tend not to pay attention to power creep or see those metrics for themselves, it feeds this idea that unless the Devs explicitly state that something was nerfed for a PVE reason, that PVP is to blame.

Things like the Murkmire healing nerfs were particularly egregious examples of this dynamic. If ZOS wanted to nerf PVP healing only, they already use Battlespirit to do so. So when the nerfs hit PVE too, there were clearly PVE reasons to nerf healing driving that decision. But, nooooo, clearly it must be the fault of those awful whiny PVPers.

In short, I find that many PVEers are way too quick to blame PVPers 100% without looking at the PVE reasons for why ZOS nerfed PVE. Why is that? Well, its because most PVEers think about sets, skills, and classes only in terms of how hard it is for them to do what they want, as opposed to considering how hard ZOS wants something to be and that, for ZOS, content becoming easier for PVEers is not necessarily a good thing. If they did consider that - or if the Trials Bosses had forum accounts with which to share the other side of it - they wouldn't be perpetually blindsided when ZOS nerfs PVE for PVE reasons.


On the other side, its a lot more obvious to the average PVPer when a build is legitimately overperforming. The metrics are a lot more apparent, so to speak.

In regards to Nerfing things for the sake that enemies in Dungeons and Trials are beaten too easily. I wonder if they consider the bottom half of players. The top half will find it to be a set back, and will overcome it, and still complete the content. This is evident as people are still completing content. However the lower portion of the population could end up locked out of the content due to the lower effectiveness of their skills or gear. I'd really like to see more action taken to raise the floor up a bit rather than lowering the ceiling.

The Devs say they do, but like you say, most nerfs aimed at lowering the ceiling end up hitting progression groups worse that the true top tier.

VaranisArano

AMeanOne wrote: »

PVEers need to accept the fact that not all nerfs come from pvp. I see people say PVEers never cry for nerfs, but those people need to open their eyes a bit wider.

It looks a little different when PVEers ask for nerfs. Then its typically "X class in overrepresented in Trial groups" or the rare healer going "DDs and tanks are so self-sufficient healers are useless, nerf self-heals!"

Its much more common for PVEers to say stuff like "my class is useless, make me the meta" without considering that the meta is a game of "King of the Mountain." If your class moves up in the rankings, someone else will take your place at the bottom.

kathandira

VaranisArano wrote: »

AMeanOne wrote: »

PVEers need to accept the fact that not all nerfs come from pvp. I see people say PVEers never cry for nerfs, but those people need to open their eyes a bit wider.

It looks a little different when PVEers ask for nerfs. Then its typically "X class in overrepresented in Trial groups" or the rare healer going "DDs and tanks are so self-sufficient healers are useless, nerf self-heals!"

Its much more common for PVEers to say stuff like "my class is useless, make me the meta" without considering that the meta is a game of "King of the Mountain." If your class moves up in the rankings, someone else will take your place at the bottom.

This is true, though I generally don't like their approach to resolving the mentioned issues.

Using Healing as an example. It is often said that Healers are less and less relevant in PvE. Which is pretty true from my personal experience. It is more and more common for people to run 1 tank and 3 DPS, or simply just 4 DPS is a lot of 4-man content. In Normal Trials, solo healing is pretty common too.

For this, Devs could reduce the healing done across the board forcing the need for additional healers. But i'd take a look at the game a whole instead. There are two Set Bonuses that are very undesirable. Healing Received, and Healing Done. Rather than leaving those hanging out there as unused set bonuses, why not amplify them, and maybe put them on more healing centric sets? All the while, healing can be reduced (And Battle Spirit can be adjusted to ensure PvP isn't affected) and the Healing Done set bonus can be increased.

The goal there is, on DPS sets, you wouldn't have Healing Done as a bonus, so self healing in general from DPS would be lower. But Healers would have their healing increased if Healing Done was increased from the current 4% to potentially 10%. Make this bonus more present on healing gear, and you could see a greater demand for healers in PvE content.

Additionally, we touched on Thrassian Stranglers, and I think they missed a fun opportunity with that item.

If I made a change, it would had been to reduce it to 5 stacks, but make the curse/kiss have little effect at low stacks, a sweet spot where the stacks are beneficial and detrimental enough to feel ok about it, and have it hurt really bad at higher stacks.

Using a total of 1,000 WD/SD and -3,000 health at 5 stacks. The sweet spot would be at 3 stacks.

1 Stack: 200 WD/SP & -600 Health
2 Stack: 400 WD/SP & -1,200 Health
3 Stack: 600 WD/SP & -1,800 Health
4 Stack: 800 WD/SP & -2,400 Health
5 Stack: 1,000 WD/SP & -3,000 Health

The thing the dev's ignored was one of the base functions of the item. Stacks drop when you crouch. I feel they should have leaned into this, and really put it on the player to decide when they need to cut off the stacks. Losing 1,800 health for a 600 WD/SD increase can be worked with, but you get 1 more kill, and you are in the danger zone, and 1 more after that, you are absolutely in the 1 shot zone. Conversely, One or Two stacks isn't enough to make it worth having. Monster sets, Arena sets, or even a full 5pc set will offer much more, with no set backs.

So the player would now need to pay close attention to their stacks and walk back and forth on the seesaw making the item far more engaging. But instead, they beat it down so hard, no one uses it at all now.

El_Borracho

VaranisArano wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Its a universal effect on both sides. There are just more PVE players so the complaints are more widespread. I primarily PVE so I can recall most of the recent "injustices" done to Zaan, Iceheart, and sorc shields than something like 7th Legion getting nerfed or bashing being nuked to the ground

There's a reason one of my common points in these sorts of discussions is that PVEers are blindsided when their powerful gear gets nerfed for PVE reasons because Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of Trial Bosses don't have forum accounts. If they did, PVEers would hear about those overused, overpowered "PVE" sets killing the bosses too quickly or making it too hard to kill the group.

.

That made me laugh. "I come to work here every day, warn these raid groups to look upon my blade and tremble, then they burn me down with those sets that Relequen and those stupid dragons from Sunspire gave them. Every. Single. Day. For years now. Come on ZOS!"

Recapitated

kathandira wrote: »

But Healers would have their healing increased if Healing Done was increased from the current 4% to potentially 10%. Make this bonus more present on healing gear, and you could see a greater demand for healers in PvE content.

Or less demand: with 10% healing done you might be able to get away with just one healer. A lot of mechs can't be healed through because they're one-shots or their damage can be "mitigated" by out-dpsing them; if you really want to make healers essential that probably needs to go.

kathandira

Recapitated wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

But Healers would have their healing increased if Healing Done was increased from the current 4% to potentially 10%. Make this bonus more present on healing gear, and you could see a greater demand for healers in PvE content.

Or less demand: with 10% healing done you might be able to get away with just one healer. A lot of mechs can't be healed through because they're one-shots or their damage can be "mitigated" by out-dpsing them; if you really want to make healers essential that probably needs to go.

Numbers could be adjusted to serve the purpose. But the goal with the idea is lower everyone else's healing, but keep current healers ability to heal more or less unaffected. And as well to balance it out via Battle Spirit so PvP doesn't get nerfed in the process.

For the point of DPS blasting through mechanics, ESO should take more lessons from other MMOs. Give the DPS more jobs to do. For example, Cloud Rest Portals. Great idea, but could use more risk to skipping them.

I like that adds make their way out of the portals, increasing in strength with each different type of add. A quick fix would be to make add 1 more round, which is if you get the bigs guys, the next thing will be a room wipe like on Z'Maja. There will still be groups who can kill both the gryphon and the boss before that explosion, but the majority of groups end up having to kill the large adds, or justs tank them until the boss is dead. If before the first portal closes, not all orbs have been dealt with, it should explode and kill everyone.

There needs to be more risk in skipping mechanics.

Atherakhia

Just think about this for second...

For something to be overpowered in PvP, it must first have its damage reduced by half due to battle spirit. If something is so powerful that it needs a nerf due to doing too much damage in PvP after having its damage cut in half, it's likely overpowered to begin with. The same is true for non-damage oriented things like bloodspawn. When EVERYONE is using the same thing all the time in any game mode, chances are something is wrong and needs to be toned down.

PvE balance is simple.. it's a spreadsheet calculation. ZOS has a 'item budget' they want things to fall in and it's like variable with +/- 5% in both directions for wiggle room specifically due to PVP, but when all is said and done, if the item still fits within their defined item budget chances are they aren't going to nerf it.

We see this with Sheer Venom. It is probably the most complained about set in PvP currently but the changes coming next week to it are so minor no one is going to stop using it because of the changes. Not only that, but they're so minor you'll likely not even notice them. Especially not in PvE.

And this is all assuming ZOS even acknowledges that they have PvP in their game to begin with. Given how horrible and ignored PvP has been for year(s) I sometimes question if they remember Cyrodiil exists. If 99.9% of their Twitch streamers weren't PvP streams and their game wasn't getting such bad press 24/7 because of the state of PvP, I doubt they'd even be doing the testing they are right now (which has been completely unproductive atm so can't wait to hear what ZOS has to say from the data they've collected).

But lets talk reality for a second too. Damage in PvE right now is insanely high. Most content in this game is trivialized because damage is so high. ZOS clearly knows this because we've seen them do more and more mechanic intensive 'hard modes' for the past year now. So when all is said and done, PvE needs some significant nerfs itself.