Please reverse the vampire feeding stages

Xarico

What the title says. If you (ZOS) believe that the new skills and passives are perfect right now and don't need another rework, that's not an issue as they'll be staying exactly as they are, just with a different stage number attached to them.
The PvPers and speedrunners (i.e. the only two major groups of players whose builds semi-frequently include Unnatural Movement and whose gameplay flow is interrupted most severely by the need to feed) are happy;
the PvErs are mostly staying at Stage 1 regardless as resource management is far more important in their game mode of choice;
the new players are not left wondering why their vampire characters function in an entirely different manner compared to vampire NPCs, most notably Fennorian from the new prologue;
people who feel that their old vampire characters were made into something entirely different are... happier?
And, since Stage 1 right now is the most desirable stage overall, you encourage frequent feeding and establish that most vampires benefit from it, which aligns nicely with your corresponding design goal.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

The problem is the passive effects do not make up for the weaknesses, I believe a re-reversal of the skill line is not what is needed, instead it only requires a few small changes, I have often shared these ideas, firstly I would reverse the healing debuff, Vampires should heal faster when they consume blood not slower, this would come in the form of increased health regeneration but inturn it would come with the penalty of receiving less healing from others which would fit the current vision.

Stage 1

- 5% Weakness to Fire
- 3% more expensive abilities
- 6% cheaper Vampire abilities
- +150 Base Health Recovery (200 if you want them to be a bit stronger)
- 3% Less Healing received from outside sources

Stage 2

- 10% Weakness to Fire
- 6% more expensive abilities
- 12% cheaper Vampire abilities
- +300 Base Health Recovery (400 if you want them to be a bit stronger)
- 6% Less Healing received from outside sources

Stage 3

- 15% Weakness to Fire
- 9% more expensive abilities
- 18% cheaper Vampire abilities
- +450 Base Health Recovery (600 if you want them to be a bit stronger)
- 9% Less Healing received from outside sources

Stage 4

- 20% Weakness to Fire
- 12% more expensive abilities
- 24% cheaper Vampire abilities
- +600 Base Health Recovery (800 if you want them to be a bit stronger)
- 12% Less Healing received from outside sources

In addition to these being the new passives I would also make the following changes to the Vampiric Powers

- Eviscerate and it's morphs would scale off of your highest offensive stat allowing Stamina builds to make use of this ability.

- Blood Frenzy would be replaced with "Bat Rush" which would be similar to "Streak: however it would not stun enemies but instead drain a portion of the health of those it hits, one morph would increase the range where as the other would deal disease damage and scale off of stamina.

- Vampiric Drain and it's morphs in addition to their existing effects would deal up to 300% more damage to enemies based on their remaining health becoming a powerful ranged execute.

- The Perfect Scion morph of Blood Scion would in addition to the existing effects would also add 630 weapon and spell damage to you for the duration of it's effect to bring it's usefulness more in line with the Swarming Scion morph.

Alternately the Stage effects can be changed so you have many weaknesses and few strengths when at stage 1 but few weaknesses and many strengths when at stage 4, this is my suggestion anyway and I believe these changes would make Vampirism far more alluring for most players and will allow Vampires to utilize Health Regeneration based Builds.

mairwen85

Players: vampires are back to front, please reverse
ZOS: OK, done.
Players: vampires are back to front, please reverse
ZOS: (@_@)

Tulshe

Stages are fine and logical. You can't become weaker when you feed and stronger when you starve. The problem is that the benefits of being a vampire are not worth the downsides gameplay-wise.

Vevvev

Flipping them back is an option but I'd rather them just fix the vampire skill line. It works perfectly with itself and can score some pretty big hits in overland, but if you tried to take those same tactics of being below 50% health and being unhealable to PVP and PVE dungeons/trials you'll get yourself killed.

In order to survive in these end game activities vampire has to give up its strengths so it doesn't get one shot by another player, ad, or boss. Its like vampire was designed for a completely different game.

jlmurra2

Tulshe wrote: »

Stages are fine and logical. You can't become weaker when you feed and stronger when you starve. The problem is that the benefits of being a vampire are not worth the downsides gameplay-wise.

I disagree about the stages. Eso's vampirism is due to an infection that renders the infected undead, and progressively more monstrous the more it develops. So that feeding from a living being, taking in living matter/energy, counters the undead effects of the infection, and reduces the effects of vampirisim, that felt right to me.

I agree that the regular ability cost increases are too high for the benefits gained, and should be reduced. I would also like vampirisim to grant some benefit for stamina characters. These two changes would make vampirisim useful for all character roles.

I wish vampirisim provided an alternative way to play magicka/stamina damage dealers, healers, and tanks.

jaws343

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Tulshe wrote: »

Stages are fine and logical. You can't become weaker when you feed and stronger when you starve. The problem is that the benefits of being a vampire are not worth the downsides gameplay-wise.

I disagree about the stages. Eso's vampirism is due to an infection that renders the infected undead, and progressively more monstrous the more it develops. So that feeding from a living being, taking in living matter/energy, counters the undead effects of the infection, and reduces the effects of vampirisim, that felt right to me.

I agree that the regular ability cost increases are too high for the benefits gained, and should be reduced. I would also like vampirisim to grant some benefit for stamina characters. These two changes would make vampirisim useful for all character roles.

I wish vampirisim provided an alternative way to play magicka/stamina damage dealers, healers, and tanks.

Apparently not any more. Since Zos is writing this lore, vampirism is whatever they want it to be. And since there are different strains, this is easily explained through in game lore why it works differently than other ES games.

And, what it used to do is irrelevant. Since skills and class flavor are constantly changing, acting like the way a skill or skill line used to work is the "right" way is nonsense. As far as the in game lore is concerned, vampirism as always worked as it does in game now for that specific strain of the disease. What we used to have never existed in that way, in game lore, because it was written out for the new version of vampirism.

mairwen85

jaws343 wrote: »

jlmurra2 wrote: »

Tulshe wrote: »

Stages are fine and logical. You can't become weaker when you feed and stronger when you starve. The problem is that the benefits of being a vampire are not worth the downsides gameplay-wise.

I disagree about the stages. Eso's vampirism is due to an infection that renders the infected undead, and progressively more monstrous the more it develops. So that feeding from a living being, taking in living matter/energy, counters the undead effects of the infection, and reduces the effects of vampirisim, that felt right to me.

I agree that the regular ability cost increases are too high for the benefits gained, and should be reduced. I would also like vampirisim to grant some benefit for stamina characters. These two changes would make vampirisim useful for all character roles.

I wish vampirisim provided an alternative way to play magicka/stamina damage dealers, healers, and tanks.

Apparently not any more. Since Zos is writing this lore, vampirism is whatever they want it to be. And since there are different strains, this is easily explained through in game lore why it works differently than other ES games.

And, what it used to do is irrelevant. Since skills and class flavor are constantly changing, acting like the way a skill or skill line used to work is the "right" way is nonsense. As far as the in game lore is concerned, vampirism as always worked as it does in game now for that specific strain of the disease. What we used to have never existed in that way, in game lore, because it was written out for the new version of vampirism.

It wasn't written out. Lamia instead was granted some divine, supernatural blood power that allowed her to alter her strain in some but not all of those affected by her curse. She did this as a temporary measure to counter the new big bad this chapter. So pre this chapter, what we had still existed, and still does in some, just chronological has been altered by the arrival of the grey host--ergo can, and from what we know of later games, will be reset and undone, presumably lost to the annals of time when it does; likewise Lamia's ascension to blood goddess which has yet to be explained.

Jeremy

Xarico wrote: »

What the title says. If you (ZOS) believe that the new skills and passives are perfect right now and don't need another rework, that's not an issue as they'll be staying exactly as they are, just with a different stage number attached to them.
The PvPers and speedrunners (i.e. the only two major groups of players whose builds semi-frequently include Unnatural Movement and whose gameplay flow is interrupted most severely by the need to feed) are happy;
the PvErs are mostly staying at Stage 1 regardless as resource management is far more important in their game mode of choice;
the new players are not left wondering why their vampire characters function in an entirely different manner compared to vampire NPCs, most notably Fennorian from the new prologue;
people who feel that their old vampire characters were made into something entirely different are... happier?
And, since Stage 1 right now is the most desirable stage overall, you encourage frequent feeding and establish that most vampires benefit from it, which aligns nicely with your corresponding design goal.

No thanks.

Vampires having to feed frequently to stay at their desired stage is one of those ideas that may sound cool on paper but when put into actual practice aren't practical and just end up being annoying.

For example: if I'm in the middle of a battleground or a dungeon I can't take a time out to go feed to get back to the stage I want to be at. So I much prefer this system to the older one.

barney2525

IMHO

There should not be any " progression " at all. There's no progression in WW. You either are or you are not WW, and you level it like any other skill.

Vampire should be an " are " or "are not" situation as well. A flat bonus/negative effect, and a daily requirement (lasts 24 hours) to feed or you don't have access to your Passives, which you level up as any skilline does. You would probably want to make feeding a Criminal act equal to Necromancy, so there is some challenge to it.

Passive skill line should have a slot that makes the vampire ' look ' more normal - since vampires are well known to be able to conceal themselves from normal peeps and often use persuasion to seduce their victims. Highest level should look normal - with fangs.

IMHO

jircris11

barney2525 wrote: »

IMHO

There should not be any " progression " at all. There's no progression in WW. You either are or you are not WW, and you level it like any other skill.

Vampire should be an " are " or "are not" situation as well. A flat bonus/negative effect, and a daily requirement (lasts 24 hours) to feed or you don't have access to your Passives, which you level up as any skilline does. You would probably want to make feeding a Criminal act equal to Necromancy, so there is some challenge to it.

Passive skill line should have a slot that makes the vampire ' look ' more normal - since vampires are well known to be able to conceal themselves from normal peeps and often use persuasion to seduce their victims. Highest level should look normal - with fangs.

IMHO

But you forget, vamp bonuses and weakness us present at all times where werewolf is only when transformed AND it requires an ultimate slot.

ManM

We currently have a "vampire" that has no need to drink blood. This is a ridiculous default state to begin with. Pre-rework, a vampire grew less powerful when drinking blood. One of the stated goals was to reverse that, so that vampires grew stronger by drinking blood. However, the rework was botched so badly that vampires still grow less powerful by drinking blood.

The calls to reverse the stages now are the same as the ones from before.

People simply want to try a vampire that actually gets stronger when drinking blood.

Xarico

To everyone saying that this is not an ideal solution and what would actually help is for the developers to fix the skill line and make Stage 4 worthwhile - I agree. I also don't believe they will fix it.

mairwen85 wrote: »

Players: vampires are back to front, please reverse
ZOS: OK, done.
Players: vampires are back to front, please reverse
ZOS: (@_@)

As mentioned by some other people in the thread, the reason players were asking for stage reversal pre-rework is that they wanted feeding to be required for optimal vampire gameplay. Right now the optimal stage is stage 1. The request hasn't really changed.

barney2525 wrote: »

IMHO

There should not be any " progression " at all. There's no progression in WW. You either are or you are not WW, and you level it like any other skill.

Vampire should be an " are " or "are not" situation as well. A flat bonus/negative effect, and a daily requirement (lasts 24 hours) to feed or you don't have access to your Passives, which you level up as any skilline does. You would probably want to make feeding a Criminal act equal to Necromancy, so there is some challenge to it.

Passive skill line should have a slot that makes the vampire ' look ' more normal - since vampires are well known to be able to conceal themselves from normal peeps and often use persuasion to seduce their victims. Highest level should look normal - with fangs.

IMHO

This would be perfect, yes.

Vayln_Ninetails

Xarico wrote: »

What the title says. If you (ZOS) believe that the new skills and passives are perfect right now and don't need another rework, that's not an issue as they'll be staying exactly as they are, just with a different stage number attached to them.
The PvPers and speedrunners (i.e. the only two major groups of players whose builds semi-frequently include Unnatural Movement and whose gameplay flow is interrupted most severely by the need to feed) are happy;
the PvErs are mostly staying at Stage 1 regardless as resource management is far more important in their game mode of choice;
the new players are not left wondering why their vampire characters function in an entirely different manner compared to vampire NPCs, most notably Fennorian from the new prologue;
people who feel that their old vampire characters were made into something entirely different are... happier?
And, since Stage 1 right now is the most desirable stage overall, you encourage frequent feeding and establish that most vampires benefit from it, which aligns nicely with your corresponding design goal.

If you think the current skills are absolutely perfect as they are then that's the main issue with this thread as that is the most objectively wrong statement I have ever seen.

You seem to complain about how vampires function for NPCs (you mention fen dialogue) , yet you think it is fine that they have skills that we don't?

Curious.

It's a bit off topic, but honestly it's probably the most glaring issue in your entire argument.

The skills ABSOLUTELY need tweaks/some reworking and much like what @TX12001rwb17_ESO suggested if anything.

EDIT NOTE: I am not getting onto you for liking the skills; I am getting onto you for saying they are perfect.

Fuzzybrick

I run my vamp at max stage 4 non stop, and use most of her skills... Mind you she is a "theme" build Toon. Not built to be best in slot anything. Purely cosmetic... That being said, even running vet City of ash 2 on hard mode, I don't have a problem with her. She is a Nightblade running Crimson twilight and mother's sorrow with a base spell power of 1800, buffed spell power of 6k to 8k. But coming from someone using all the abilities all the time, they could use some tweeks. For example, vampiric drain and both morfs are complete garbage... Even when healing self is maxed out cp and my spell power is up to 8k.
Edit: Corrupting Bloody Mara and it's counterpart solves feeding issue.. I figure that goes without saying though..

Sephyr

Pre-Greymoor: "You guys are just taking Vampire for the passives and never feeding!"
Same people post-Greymoor: "I don't want to have to feed to use Dark Stalker or these abilities!"