Banned for reporting undelivered crowns to Paypal.

Chinspun

So, I purchased some crowns, which came up with an error message on the ZOS site after the payment was made via Paypal.

The crowns were not delivered (ZOS later rectified this) but the money was taken so I immediately reported the issue to Paypal.

ZOS banned me from the game.

Jim_Pipp

I'm sorry. This trap has caught out a few people, so clearly zos may want to reflect on this policy, as what you did sounds reasonable.

You were banned because you bought crowns and then cancelled payment, they have an auto-ban process to prevent scammers.

Hope you can get a ticket open to have this investigated...

Chinspun

What irritates me is that if an actual person took a cursory glance at my account it would be very obvious that I am not a scammer.

But instead you receive an automated ban that denies you access to support, preventing you from resolving the issue.

Nairinhe

Why would you try to resolve issue with Paypal instead of ZOS?

Chinspun

Because that is who took the payment when I did not receive the product. I was not even aware that the purchase had registered with ZOS as that is where the error message appeared.

I would add that Paypal undertakes an investigation. A response from ZOS confirming that they intended to/ had delivered the product would have concluded the investigation in their favour. I can only assume that ZOS failed to respond to requests for information. ZOS partners with Paypal, they should be aware of the procedures.

TjPhysicist

Chinspun wrote: »

Because that is who took the payment when I did not receive the product.

I would add that Paypal undertakes an investigation. A response from ZOS confirming that they intended to/ had delivered the product would have concluded the investigation in their favour. I can only assume that ZOS failed to respond to requests for information.

this exact thing happened to me as well. if for example, zos gave me a transaction or acknowledged it in any way, I'd have gone to them...to me this was a PayPal issue, zos said "could not verify the card, please try again" meaning there wasn't even a transaction. number, ie zos hadn't even registered a transaction to them it was the same as if I had put in the wrong credit card number (it was the same error message), I thought nothing of it since Amex is very strange sometimes and often doesn't work with some sites.

TjPhysicist

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

I'm sorry. This trap has caught out a few people, so clearly zos may want to reflect on this policy, as what you did sounds reasonable.

You were banned because you bought crowns and then cancelled payment, they have an auto-ban process to prevent scammers.

Hope you can get a ticket open to have this investigated...

so...what happened to these ppl ultimately? I'm genuinely afraid that zos is gonna say there's nothing they can do to lift the ban or something

what_the

You should of made a ticket with ZoS first, giving them the PayPal (copy of the transaction, explaining what happened:
"You sent a payment of XXXX USD to Zenimax Online Studios
(ESO_Help@helpmail.elderscrollsonline.com)"
. If that didn't work THEN go to paypal and dispute it.
* PayPal gives you plenty of time to resolve the situation.

TjPhysicist

what_the wrote: »

You should of made a ticket with ZoS first, giving them the PayPal (copy of the transaction, explaining what happened:
"You sent a payment of XXXX USD to Zenimax Online Studios
(ESO_Help@helpmail.elderscrollsonline.com)"
. If that didn't work THEN go to paypal and dispute it.
* PayPal gives you plenty of time to resolve the situation.

I did, sadly i don't recall that ticket number anymore, as I never got an automated email (u know the "we have recieved your ticket #...and are looking into it" thing..in fact I didn't get one for the one i opened yesterday either but bethesda's help said they got the ticket). After a bit, I did the paypal thing...again, the assumption with paypal is ALWAYS that they try to contact the merchant on my behalf first, in fact paypals ticket page literally says that, since I didn't report it as fraud but rather as 'service/product not recieved'.

Anyways, lesson learnt..am just gonna buy cards from the store if I ever get my account back...speaking of which - since this has apparently happened before, what does the ending to this story look like usually? Do these folks get their accounts back, or are they perma banned or something?

Chinspun

what_the wrote: »

You should of made a ticket with ZoS first, giving them the PayPal (copy of the transaction, explaining what happened:
"You sent a payment of XXXX USD to Zenimax Online Studios
(ESO_Help@helpmail.elderscrollsonline.com)"
. If that didn't work THEN go to paypal and dispute it.
* PayPal gives you plenty of time to resolve the situation.

And the issue here for both of us (I think) is that to all appearances there was a failure somewhere between Paypal taking the payment and ZOS receiving it, as there was no notification of the transaction. In fact I assumed that the money had never left my account until I checked.

Later, I assumed that the payment/transfer had failed and Paypal would refund me the money.

TjPhysicist

Chinspun wrote: »

what_the wrote: »

You should of made a ticket with ZoS first, giving them the PayPal (copy of the transaction, explaining what happened:
"You sent a payment of XXXX USD to Zenimax Online Studios
(ESO_Help@helpmail.elderscrollsonline.com)"
. If that didn't work THEN go to paypal and dispute it.
* PayPal gives you plenty of time to resolve the situation.

And the issue here for both is us (I think) is that to all appearances there was a failure somewhere between Paypal taking the payment and ZOS receiving it, as there was no notification of the transaction.

I assumed that the payment/transfer had failed and Paypal would refund me the money.

this...the error message looked EXACTLY like what happens when the payment system fails to process my amex properly, or if i put in the wrong CC number or something...which happens a SHOCKING number of times because amex is amex. In fact happned last week at McD, swiped my card and it said that the card was invalid/could not process the card etc.

Honestly I get ZOS' point here, fair enough...what they SHOULD do is a very simple fix: edit that error message that happens when payments fail and add "If you do see a payment or transaction on your card or bank account please contact our support and give them this reference number <number>. Do not attempt to reverse the transaction on the banks or paypal side." I have seen similar warnings in other places before, it's not new.

VaranisArano

TjPhysicist wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

I'm sorry. This trap has caught out a few people, so clearly zos may want to reflect on this policy, as what you did sounds reasonable.

You were banned because you bought crowns and then cancelled payment, they have an auto-ban process to prevent scammers.

Hope you can get a ticket open to have this investigated...

so...what happened to these ppl ultimately? I'm genuinely afraid that zos is gonna say there's nothing they can do to lift the ban or something

Here's an example of resolution. Note the timeline at the beginning of the thread- it can takes over a month to be resolved. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6540624#Comment_6540624

Xerge

Never, ever, never, ever, and I mean NEVER go your bank or paypal first. You are not doing the right thing, I'm 200% serious. Your first priority is to speak with ZOS as they are likely able to rectify double charges or other missteps on their end. Obviously what's done is done so.. for anyone reading.

TjPhysicist

Xerge wrote: »

Never, ever, never, ever, and I mean NEVER go your bank or paypal first. You are not doing the right thing, I'm 200% serious. Your first priority is to speak with ZOS as they are likely able to rectify double charges or other missteps on their end. Obviously what's done is done so.. for anyone reading.

it was an honest mistake which I'll never make again, how is it fair I be banned for good? since I made the purchase using paypal,not being an actual bank paypal cannot reverse chargebacks it's simply not possible...and zos insists they will not start the reinstatement process until the chargeback is reversed, which is impossible. yes it was stupid, yes maybe I'm am idiot too, but mistakes happen and its blatantly irresponsible of a company to permaban an otherwise long term payingcustomer for one single mistake.

Taleof2Cities

TjPhysicist wrote: »

it was an honest mistake which I'll never make again, how is it fair I be banned for good? ... but mistakes happen and its blatantly irresponsible of a company to permaban an otherwise long term payingcustomer for one single mistake.

It's been well-documented in the forums, @TjPhysicist, that a canceled credit card or PayPal transaction will lead to an account ban ... regardless of your tenure as a player.

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

TjPhysicist

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

TjPhysicist wrote: »

it was an honest mistake which I'll never make again, how is it fair I be banned for good? ... but mistakes happen and its blatantly irresponsible of a company to permaban an otherwise long term payingcustomer for one single mistake.

It's been well-documented in the forums, @TjPhysicist, that a canceled credit card or PayPal transaction will lead to an account ban ... regardless of your tenure as a player.

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

no of course not. My point still stands, however poorly expressed: that a one time transaction issue that had clearly no ill intent behind it (i.e it can be proven pretty clearly that I'm not a scammer or someone who will try to game the system in any way) should NOT result in permanently banning (to be clear, what i mean by permaban, is not the account lockout that is automatically done as a result of a chargeback, but an inability to ever get my account BACK from such a lockout) an otherwise well paying customer. The reason I bring my tenure as a player is because it goes to prove that I'm not someone who was looking to scam or game the system (purportedly the real targets of these bans, to prevent scammers from using the chargeback to game the system). This goes for Chinspun as well, it's clear that they, like me, didn't intend to do anything such as scam or game the system.

Again, to be clear: yes it was our mistake, and while I do wish these warnings are present more clearly for those of us who do not really engage in the forums (such as a warning in the purchase page like "if you see a double charge, please contact us first") I am completely willing to admit my fault here. HOWEVER, that being said, it was a one time issue, it is very clear that neither myself nor chinspun intend to do anything like this ever again, or ever intended to scam or game the system - clearly the real targets of these policies, to catch scammers. SINCE IT WAS a one time issue, I sincerely think that a permanent ban with no hope of ever returning is not a fair punishment. THe automated ban makes PERFECT SENSE, of course, I can imagine them seeing a lot of potential scammers trying to use chargeback to do something hinky so an automated strike down of the account is an understandable, if frustrating, reaction. What is NOT, however, is having no recourse. I can reverse the chargeback if it was my credit card or debit card, i CANNOT reverse a charge on paypal (since paypal is not actually a bank, they're not allowed to reverse chargebacks), so I can never get my account back. (because, as the agent said, they will start the process to reinstate my account once they verify the reversal of the chargeback).

Chinspun

I have not got that far yet. I am aware that Paypal cannot reverse chargebacks and neither can your bank when the process has been undertaken via Paypal. Obviously a reversal of a chargeback is not an option as it is impossible.

Making another payment to cover the items is an option. Have they offered this?

TjPhysicist

Chinspun wrote: »

I have not got that far yet. I am aware that Paypal cannot reverse chargebacks and neither can your bank when the process has been undertaken via Paypal. Obviously a reversal of a chargeback is not an option as it is impossible.

Making another payment to cover the items is an option. Have they offered this?

that is an option yea, hoping they cave and say yes to that. no luck so far though.

idk

I am sure it has been said, but you should have reported it to Zos and had them work it out. Whenever a company does a chargeback, which is what happened here, Zos banns the account since they do not know what is happening. It does seem normal to me when such a thing happens to talk to the company I am actually dealing with.

Work with Zos and they will get it figured out and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Edit: You say you have not gotten that far. Have you contacted Zos about this? Have you opened a ticket or anything like that?

Chinspun

idk wrote: »

I am sure it has been said, but you should have reported it to Zos and had them work it out. Whenever a company does a chargeback, which is what happened here, Zos banns the account since they do not know what is happening. It does seem normal to me when such a thing happens to talk to the company I am actually dealing with.

Work with Zos and they will get it figured out and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Edit: You say you have not gotten that far. Have you contacted Zos about this? Have you opened a ticket or anything like that?

Yes I have. As said above the message on the ZOS website was that the transaction had failed. There was no notification of the transaction received by email and there was no record of the transaction on my ZOS account.

It was a reasonable assumption that the fault lay with Paypal and ZOS were not even aware of the transaction, hence contacting Paypal.

idk

Chinspun wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I am sure it has been said, but you should have reported it to Zos and had them work it out. Whenever a company does a chargeback, which is what happened here, Zos banns the account since they do not know what is happening. It does seem normal to me when such a thing happens to talk to the company I am actually dealing with.

Work with Zos and they will get it figured out and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

Edit: You say you have not gotten that far. Have you contacted Zos about this? Have you opened a ticket or anything like that?

Yes I have. As said above the message on the ZOS website was that the transaction had failed. There was no notification of the transaction received by email and there was no record of the transaction on my ZOS account.

It was a reasonable assumption that the fault lay with Paypal and ZOS were not even aware of the transaction, hence contacting Paypal.

Actually, if Paypal was charged then Zos would have that information as it is their system that did the charge. That statement is not based off an assumption.

As I said, lesson learned, one that I realize is aggravating. Work with Zos to get your account straightened out which I hope they can do quickly. Good luck with that.

Raideen

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

If so, that would be extremely unprofessional on ZOS Support part. They should have the wisdom and insight enough to realize that when a customer is not in the wrong and the customer is being punished as if they are in the wrong, that the customer may be less than enthusiastic about the situation. Hence, why the customer is irate. Customer service 101.

The professional solution would NOT to take offense to anything the customer says, especially when understanding what they are going through and proceed with helping the customer in the appropriate processing order their ticket came in. In fact if the crux of the issue started with ZOS, ZOS should bend over backwards to appease the customer and make things right.

I went to get some chicken tonight. I ordered a large tea, requested this twice. I paid the cashier. A different employee (who took care of food handing) handed me a small tea. I briefly explained that I had ordered a large tea. I showed them the ticket and I asked if I paid for a large (their abbreviations were hard to decipher), she said no. I said ok, sorry nevermind and she handed me a large tea and said "Don't worry about it".

This was my first time at this establishment as its out of my way. But because of this gesture. I will order chicken and tea from them again.

The worse thing any business can do is approach the customer with "I already have their money attitude", which if ZOS added more time to the ticket because the customer was rightfully upset, this is exactly what ZOS would be doing and I can emphatically state as an absolute, that is the incorrect way to handle paying customers.

Chinspun

As an update, I was requested to reverse the chargeback. I informed ZOS that it is not possible to reverse a chargeback and asked them to advise how it would be best to make payment covering the chargeback.

Radio silence.

Chinspun

Raideen wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

-snip-

Raideen wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

If so, that would be extremely unprofessional on ZOS Support part. They should have the wisdom and insight enough to realize that when a customer is not in the wrong and the customer is being punished as if they are in the wrong, that the customer may be less than enthusiastic about the situation. Hence, why the customer is irate. Customer service 101.

The professional solution would NOT to take offense to anything the customer says, especially when understanding what they are going through and proceed with helping the customer in the appropriate processing order their ticket came in. In fact if the crux of the issue started with ZOS, ZOS should bend over backwards to appease the customer and make things right.

I went to get some chicken tonight. I ordered a large tea, requested this twice. I paid the cashier. A different employee (who took care of food handing) handed me a small tea. I briefly explained that I had ordered a large tea. I showed them the ticket and I asked if I paid for a large (their abbreviations were hard to decipher), she said no. I said ok, sorry nevermind and she handed me a large tea and said "Don't worry about it".

This was my first time at this establishment as its out of my way. But because of this gesture. I will order chicken and tea from them again.

The worse thing any business can do is approach the customer with "I already have their money attitude", which if ZOS added more time to the ticket because the customer was rightfully upset, this is exactly what ZOS would be doing and I can emphatically state as an absolute, that is the incorrect way to handle paying customers.

The entire response is questionable.

I purchased crowns, which did not arrive (together with a standard payment failure message on the ZOS site), I received no confirmation of the transaction and there was no record of it on my ZOS account (which I have now been denied access to). I raised the issue with Paypal who also requested information (according to their records) on three separate occasions.

Eventually ZOS provided the crowns and banned me for the chargeback provided by Paypal. I tried to reverse the chargeback but was unable to, so I requested details from ZOS on how to make a payment covering the chargeback.

I have purchased crowns many times over my time playing ESO without any issues. In any other industry I would be considered a valued customer and ZOS would be seeking to expedite this issue.

Goregrinder

what_the wrote: »

You should of made a ticket with ZoS first, giving them the PayPal (copy of the transaction, explaining what happened:
"You sent a payment of XXXX USD to Zenimax Online Studios
(ESO_Help@helpmail.elderscrollsonline.com)"
. If that didn't work THEN go to paypal and dispute it.
* PayPal gives you plenty of time to resolve the situation.

Yep. Always try to do your due diligence by reaching out to the vendor first. Payment errors can happen, for all you know they had an internal server issue that caused it. And you won't know, until you try to contact them. Then if the vendor appears to be unwilling to make good on their server or product, at that point you've done your due diligence as a consumer and can then contact your payment processor as a 2nd step.

A scammer would skip step 1 and go straight to their payment processor to cancel the transaction. Which is what OP did.

Taleof2Cities

Raideen wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

If so, that would be extremely unprofessional on ZOS Support part. They should have the wisdom and insight enough to realize that when a customer is not in the wrong and the customer is being punished as if they are in the wrong, that the customer may be less than enthusiastic about the situation. Hence, why the customer is irate. Customer service 101.

Except in this example the customer was in fact wrong.

No one should be pursuing a chargeback with their bank, credit card, or PayPal without attempting to resolve it with the seller first.

That's Personal Finance 101.

Raideen

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Raideen wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

If so, that would be extremely unprofessional on ZOS Support part. They should have the wisdom and insight enough to realize that when a customer is not in the wrong and the customer is being punished as if they are in the wrong, that the customer may be less than enthusiastic about the situation. Hence, why the customer is irate. Customer service 101.

Except in this example the customer was in fact wrong.

Debatable.

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

No one should be pursuing a chargeback with their bank, credit card, or PayPal without attempting to resolve it with the seller first.

That's Personal Finance 101.

Not in ever case, regardless every single point I made still stands true.

Even if the customer WAS WRONG (as in the example I gave about chicken), the best course of action for a company is to work with the customer in a swift and professional manner and make the customer happy.

The primary issue is that the video game industry does not treat customers as customers.

idk

Raideen wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

I hope you're not using "blatantly irresponsible" in your dialogue with the ZOS Support Team. That will just end up adding more time until you can get back into the game.

If so, that would be extremely unprofessional on ZOS Support part.

They should have the wisdom and insight enough to realize that when a customer is not in the wrong and the customer is being punished as if they are in the wrong, that the customer may be less than enthusiastic about the situation. Hence, why the customer is irate. Customer service 101.

The professional solution would NOT to take offense to anything the customer says, especially when understanding what they are going through and proceed with helping the customer in the appropriate processing order their ticket came in. In fact if the crux of the issue started with ZOS, ZOS should bend over backwards to appease the customer and make things right.

I went to get some chicken tonight. I ordered a large tea, requested this twice. I paid the cashier. A different employee (who took care of food handing) handed me a small tea. I briefly explained that I had ordered a large tea. I showed them the ticket and I asked if I paid for a large (their abbreviations were hard to decipher), she said no. I said ok, sorry nevermind and she handed me a large tea and said "Don't worry about it".

This was my first time at this establishment as its out of my way. But because of this gesture. I will order chicken and tea from them again.

The worse thing any business can do is approach the customer with "I already have their money attitude", which if ZOS added more time to the ticket because the customer was rightfully upset, this is exactly what ZOS would be doing and I can emphatically state as an absolute, that is the incorrect way to handle paying customers.

One can win more people to their side with gentle persuasion than being hostile and that type of comment, calling them blatantly irresponsible, is hostile. This is both common sense and logical.

BTW, when trying to get a CS agent to help with something the worst thing one can say is they will never do business with them again. The CS agent's job is actually customer retention and that little message just told them to not go to great lengths to help because the customer already made up their mind. Just FYI.

Reverb

This isn’t just a Zeni thing. Going straight to a chargeback or payment cancellation is a “scorched earth” solution with many, many business and you will no longer be welcomed as a customer.

Report obviously fraudulent charges as soon as you see them. But when there’s a payment issue with a company you have a relationship with, you should always try to straighten it out with that company first. Go through PayPal or your credit card issuer only if the company doesn’t work with you to resolve the issue.

Chinspun

Update: It appears that I have now been given an alternative means to make a payment covering the chargeback.

Chinspun

Reverb wrote: »

This isn’t just a Zeni thing. Going straight to a chargeback or payment cancellation is a “scorched earth” solution with many, many business and you will no longer be welcomed as a customer.

Report obviously fraudulent charges as soon as you see them. But when there’s a payment issue with a company you have a relationship with, you should always try to straighten it out with that company first. Go through PayPal or your credit card issuer only if the company doesn’t work with you to resolve the issue.

I think it is really a reasonable person test. I had never even considered the inner workings of Paypal prior to this issue. I would contest that a reasonable response to your transaction being declined and an absence of any records it was ever made would be to approach Paypal. As such the response from the vendor should fit the specific circumstances.

Edited to add: It would no longer be my first action if the circumstances repeated.