Proposed Changes for Assassin's Blade (Nightblade Execute)

Nebula_DooM

Hello all!

The purpose of this discussion is to propose changes to the execute that Nightblades have in their class skills which is Assassin's Blade and it's two morphs.

As it sits right now, Assassin's Blade states: Thrust a magic blade with lethal precision to stab an enemy, dealing x Magic Damage. Deals 300% more damage to enemies below 25% Health.

What I'm proposing to change with this ability is the % health threshold for the bonus damage to be applied, to be increased to 50% health and below, much like what Reverse Slash (+ morphs) and Whirling Blades (Whirlwind morph) sit at currently on the live servers. This is what the proposed tooltip would look like:
Thrust a magic blade with lethal precision to stab an enemy, dealing x Magic Damage. Deals up to 300% more damage to enemies below 50% Health. This should also apply to its stamina and magicka morphs.

What this will do for those who may not know is that it will increase the damage of the execute from 25% health and above on targets and reduces the damage done to targets who are below 25% health in respect of the 300% damage modifier that the ability has.

Why might you ask? Reverse slash (+ morphs) and Whirling Blades (Whirlwind morph) are great executes that have greater incentives than that of Assassin's Blade and its morphs.
Reverse Slash and its morph Executioner deals up to 400% more damage to targets below 50% health while Reverse Slash deals AoE damage based on the initial damage. This execute can also synergise very well with the Two Handed passive Battle Rush which increases your Stamina recovery by 30% after killing an enemy.

Whirling Blades deals up to 100% more damage to targets with 50% and less which may seem little but coupled with the Slaughter passive (Increases the damage of dual wield abilities by 20% against targets under 25% health) and Ruffian passive (Gives you a 15% damage bonus when attacking stunned, immobilized, disoriented, or silenced enemies) the Dual Wield skillline has, the execute can be very strong. It is also an AoE execute which to my understanding, is hard to come across in this game (skill wise).

To top it all off, these above executes also benefit from the Nightblade Executioner Passive which gives you resources when an enemy dies two seconds after being damaged by you.

What this proposed change should do is incentivise nightblades to run Assassin's Blade and its morphs to also make use of the nightblade passives. In a PvE perspective 25% health and below is very realistic setting to make use of the extra damage. On the other hand (the land of PvP), the execute feels wasted since enemies have to have below 25% health to get this damage modifier and more often than not players will heal up beyond that 25% health threshold. Having the damage modifier be based on 50% health and below will make this skill more useable and will give players more options to choose from PvP wise. Plus, I'd like to stab enemies with precision and be able to get away with it

I hope you can consider this change a possibility in the current Public Test Server build or in future updates.

nesakinter

No, because it will be a significant nerf to NBs both stam and mag in PvE. In PvP, you can always use Executioner instead, you are not forced to use Killer's Blade.

Nebula_DooM

nesakinter wrote: »

No, because it will be a significant nerf to NBs both stam and mag in PvE. In PvP, you can always use Executioner instead, you are not forced to use Killer's Blade.

I am aware of this nerf it would have PvE wise. If the nerf would be significant however, I am not too sure on that since at some point at around ~30-28% Health you could potentially start executing to reduce the amount of damage you'd lose with this change. Currently, class abilities should be stronger, not overpowered as such, but an ever-so-slightly better option than their weapon ability counterparts. You have way more incentive to use executioner than Killer's Blade in PvP and thats due to Executioner dealing more damage than Assassin's blade above the 25% health threshold and below 12.5% health too, while also inheriting a few of the nightblade passives. This was just my proposal to make Assassin's Blade a viable option in PvP. What Zenimax could potentially do however, is while making this change, increase the damage of the execute too so in this case it won't be a significant nerf. I'm just spitballing ideas tho

goldenarcher1

Remove the heal from killer's blade and make the bonus damage 400%.

Everest_Lionheart

This execute is in a good place. PvE we can hit 90K+ executes when casting after incap strike and all our other buffs up. What’s killing you in PvP is that incap is much harder to land on a live target.

The whirling blades execute is excellent for trash but I feel like you really don’t gain much for higher % that it kicks in when fighting bosses. Like it’s there but you don’t see the big drops in health like you do with killers blade. I use it on Stamden as my spamable most of the time because the class spamable is kind of garbage.

Killers blade is also much cheaper. I don’t do 2H so can’t comment there.

Nebula_DooM

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

This execute is in a good place. PvE we can hit 90K+ executes when casting after incap strike and all our other buffs up. What’s killing you in PvP is that incap is much harder to land on a live target.

The whirling blades execute is excellent for trash but I feel like you really don’t gain much for higher % that it kicks in when fighting bosses. Like it’s there but you don’t see the big drops in health like you do with killers blade. I use it on Stamden as my spamable most of the time because the class spamable is kind of garbage.

Killers blade is also much cheaper. I don’t do 2H so can’t comment there.

What you say about incap is true that it is occasionally hard to land. What I want people from a PvE standpoint to see is that the health difference between targets in Pve and PvP is huge. Most bosses in PvE at 25% health and below (from an organised group trial perspective) is about 20 million+ and they cant heal back up. Lets say the average health in PvP is 30k. 25% of that is 7.5k health. Most of the times players will heal up from execute range to about 30-50% within a few seconds, which is why Executioner is better than Assassin's Blade as if a player heals from the usual execute threshold of 25%, anything below 50% is still more damage Executioner can deal. Also consider the amount of damage reduction that exists in PvP too. A max resistant opponent can reduce the final damage of it by 75% (50% from Battle Spirit and 50% from having max armor). This is without calculating Critical Resistance, Champion Points and Penetration too so you could potentially be hitting someone who is mitigating 80-90% of your damage. Assassin's blade specifically Killer's Blade does cost cheaper however, Executioner still benefits from cost reduction in the Two Handed passive which is 15% reduction so Killer's Blade is still expensive and unreliable. The only real value I'd consider Assassin's Blade would have is the extra critical rating you get for having it slotted (and even then its like a 2% increase in critical rating) otherwise, it's just not worth it in my opinion.

ccfeeling

U know pvp > pve in ESO?

Kory

Stop it
I just saw someone's Killer blade do 16k damage as if that that wasn't enough to get the kill

Nebula_DooM

Kory wrote: »

Stop it
I just saw someone's Killer blade do 16k damage as if that that wasn't enough to get the kill

Firstly its a buff to killer's blade against targets with 25-49% health and a nerf to targets below 25%. If Zenimax increased the execute damage that'd be considered a buff to the skill in general. What I'm trying to suggest for this skills and its morph is it to be brought in line with what Reverse Slash (and morphs) and Whirling Blades do (increases the damage up to x% to enemies below 50%) to bring more utility to the skill in certain situations

Nebula_DooM

***Reposting this so this idea gets more traction***

Bhaygon

I just think the stamina morph should be ranged too, to help archer builds. Nothing more is needed, not everthing needs to be viable in pvp, there is a lot more viable things on pvp than should be actualy...

NagualV

I mean as a pvp magblade player I certainly wouldnt reject it lol.

But i get a feeling it is where it is because of Pve/balance reasons.

Nebula_DooM

Bhaygon wrote: »

I just think the stamina morph should be ranged too, to help archer builds. Nothing more is needed, not everthing needs to be viable in pvp, there is a lot more viable things on pvp than should be actualy...

I dont think this is true in all scenarios everything should be a viable option just not bis. Currently Assassin's blade has only one viable option of being slotted and thats the extra crit you get from nb passives. Making killers blade ranged is a cool idea tho

Nebula_DooM

NagualV wrote: »

I mean as a pvp magblade player I certainly wouldnt reject it lol.

But i get a feeling it is where it is because of Pve/balance reasons.

Yep ive suggested a few ways this could be dealt with. One way is to increase the executed dmg. Another way is to increase the ramping execute dmg. With these suggestions, the dps loss would be extremely minute.

VaxtinTheWolf

I made one suggestion for this skill to start scaling at 35% remaining health, but my focus was on other areas of this class.

Ippokrates

Bad idea. Assassin's Blade is unique, which is nice touch for NB class, but probably also most powerful execute in game at 25% (maybe except Radiant Glory with full mana but imho one shot works better for execute than 3 ticks) PLUS reliable skill providing relatively constant dmg, which imho works great in both: pvp & pve.

And it works so good with KG ^^

Also, OP should check eso skill browser. Whirlwind is not only using dual passives but also have 50% stronger basic damage.

Everest_Lionheart

Ippokrates wrote: »

Bad idea. Assassin's Blade is unique, which is nice touch for NB class, but probably also most powerful execute in game at 25% (maybe except Radiant Glory with full mana but imho one shot works better for execute than 3 ticks) PLUS reliable skill providing relatively constant dmg, which imho works great in both: pvp & pve.

And it works so good with KG ^^

Also, OP should check eso skill browser. Whirlwind is not only using dual passives but also have 50% stronger basic damage.

PvE in execute right now if you cast it after incap you can crit for 120k plus. It significantly outperforms every other execute in the game including magplar and their beam. The only skill I’ve seen hit harder is the warden bear at 185k but you can’t cast that in rapid succession. Put 3 magblades in your raid group and watch health bars literally disappear at 25% it’s glorious!

Ippokrates

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Bad idea. Assassin's Blade is unique, which is nice touch for NB class, but probably also most powerful execute in game at 25% (maybe except Radiant Glory with full mana but imho one shot works better for execute than 3 ticks) PLUS reliable skill providing relatively constant dmg, which imho works great in both: pvp & pve.

And it works so good with KG ^^

Also, OP should check eso skill browser. Whirlwind is not only using dual passives but also have 50% stronger basic damage.

PvE in execute right now if you cast it after incap you can crit for 120k plus. It significantly outperforms every other execute in the game including magplar and their beam. The only skill I’ve seen hit harder is the warden bear at 185k but you can’t cast that in rapid succession. Put 3 magblades in your raid group and watch health bars literally disappear at 25% it’s glorious!

I got bigger numbers on Grim Focus & Molten Whip ;p

I am not saying it is not powerful skill but... for 75% of boss health bar, most executes are useless, because they are at 50% dmg of regular skill. AB is nice because it can give you full power at 25%, while other executes must drop another 10% to get similar numbers.

Maybe that is why i can see trial people looking for Necros (although their execute passive is also nice) but nobody is killing for NB in their group - especially that only unique things they could give is stamcrit and as we know, stams in trials sucks ;p

Nebula_DooM

VaxtinTheWolf wrote: »

I made one suggestion for this skill to start scaling at 35% remaining health, but my focus was on other areas of this class.

What other areas were you thinking about? I'd greatly appreciate if you let us know

Nebula_DooM

Ippokrates wrote: »

Bad idea. Assassin's Blade is unique, which is nice touch for NB class, but probably also most powerful execute in game at 25% (maybe except Radiant Glory with full mana but imho one shot works better for execute than 3 ticks) PLUS reliable skill providing relatively constant dmg, which imho works great in both: pvp & pve.

And it works so good with KG ^^

Also, OP should check eso skill browser. Whirlwind is not only using dual passives but also have 50% stronger basic damage.

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Ippokrates wrote: »

Bad idea. Assassin's Blade is unique, which is nice touch for NB class, but probably also most powerful execute in game at 25% (maybe except Radiant Glory with full mana but imho one shot works better for execute than 3 ticks) PLUS reliable skill providing relatively constant dmg, which imho works great in both: pvp & pve.

And it works so good with KG ^^

Also, OP should check eso skill browser. Whirlwind is not only using dual passives but also have 50% stronger basic damage.

PvE in execute right now if you cast it after incap you can crit for 120k plus. It significantly outperforms every other execute in the game including magplar and their beam. The only skill I’ve seen hit harder is the warden bear at 185k but you can’t cast that in rapid succession. Put 3 magblades in your raid group and watch health bars literally disappear at 25% it’s glorious!

I fully understand the implications of changing this skill in pve and pvp. I feel however executes in this game are rather unique with its ramping execute damage.

Another change would be to introduce caps to the ramping execute damage so every execute should feel the same at 25%. That way all executes including Assassin's blade and morphs start increasing its scaling execute damage under 50% but it caps at 300% when targets are 25% or lower (Assassin's Blade example). This is the most balanced way I can think of without giving the skill too much damage or nerfing Assassin's Blade to the point its not used. Although writing this I am now thinking that this would only work for Assassin's blade and not all executes since each execute has different scaling bonuses. Just want to make killer's blade more viable in pvp

***EDIT***
To make Assassin's blade feel more unique then this could be one of the main points. Introduce a cap to the skill so at 25% health it deals 300% more damage but have a ramping execute damage part too. So 49-25% health it deals up to 300% extra damage. No other executes need to have this cap therefore making this useable in both pvp and pve scenarios without much change to the skills damage

Amottica

We have other execute skills that work differently and there is not a problem with that. I would also suggest it does nothing worthwhile to improve combat As such this suggestion is not needed.

While OP suggests the change is a benefit because of the nightblade passive that would return resources, it is rather irrelevant since the use of the skill would still return resources with the current design.

Nebula_DooM

Amottica wrote: »

We have other execute skills that work differently and there is not a problem with that. I would also suggest it does nothing worthwhile to improve combat As such this suggestion is not needed.

While OP suggests the change is a benefit because of the nightblade passive that would return resources, it is rather irrelevant since the use of the skill would still return resources with the current design.

In PvE its definitely not needed but to keep balance in PvE I've suggested this way so PvE will be unaffected in the long run. PvP on the other hand would make a difference since assassin's blade would be able to compete with Executioner and Whirling blade. It makes sense that class abilities should be at least stronger or more beneficial than their weapon counterparts. Executioner and Whirling Blade do better in certain scenarios compared to assassin's blade. And they benefit from passives from their own skill line as well as nightblade passives. The only passive Executioner and Whirling blade does not obtain is Pressure Point which gives 2% critical chance and Hemorrage which gives minor savagery and 10% critical damage although as a nightblade you are probably already slotting other skills to get this.

I have also realised this change is not meant just for stamina nightblades but for nightblades in general if I haven't made that clear.

In PvP, Assassin's Blade does not get much usage like you are better off using merciless resolve on magicka nightblade to burst people or a combination of incap and executioner or relentless focus and executioner on a stamina nightblade for example. In PvP it is relatively easy to heal back over the 25% threshold if you have 20-30k health. Higher health individuals would struggle to heal quickly over 25% unless they are using health based heals which is almost always. So the only time you'd get benefits from Assassin's Blade execute damage is against absolute potatos or ganks where you are guaranteed to get someone just below 25% health in quick succession.

El_Borracho

No. Leave Killer's Blade alone. I don't know a single PVE player that would use Whirling Blades over Killer's Blade as an execute. Its great as-is. The last thing PVE stamblade players want is something that would be OP in PVP land which would eventually result in nerfing the PVE version of the skill as well