Need Builders Help Pls - Magika Vanpire Templar & Jabs

Lab3360

I need your help guys. Cant crack this one. I am trying to build a
Vampiric Magika Templar Puncturing sweeps

How can I get this set up to hit 35k.
Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

I am surrendering anything else in the build. Cp, gear, rotation, skills, mundus stone, etc.

Please help me...Im am lost on this one.
I am completley back at the drawing board on this one.

virtus753

Are you actually running jabs and not sweeps? Because jabs on a toon stacking magicka and spell damage is going to hit like a wet noodle.

Lab3360

I mean sweeps.. sorry

Vevvev

Abilities that cost magicka scale off spell damage and max magicka.

Abilities that cost stamina scale off weapon damage and max stamina.

Abilities that cost health scale off of the damage type they do. Magic, flame, ice, and lightning scale off the same stats as magicka abilities, while physical, bleed, poison, and disease damage scales off the same stats as stamina abilities.

Unless the ability says other wise (Like healing based on max/missing health for instance) if you want to make it better increase the stats that effect it.

Another thing is if you're a vampire magicka templar and are going to be using your class spammable you're throwing sustain to the wind. The non-vampire cost increase is going to eat you alive if you progress your vampire stage since the cost increase gets worse the higher your stage.

The non-vampire cost increase scales like this:

Stages 1/2/3/4
3%/5%/8%/12%

Unless you're taking advantage of your vampire abilities that boost damage being a vampire is only hindering you. If you don't progress your stage to minimize the effects of being a vampire the vampire ultimate which you love will cost you 314 ultimate at stage 1. At stage 2 it will cost you 301 ultimate, 281 ultimate at stage 3, and 254 ultimate at stage 4. I will add that Perfect Scion costs a little less but it is inferior damage wise to Swarming Scion.

virtus753

Lab3360 wrote: »

I mean sweeps.. sorry

I mean, some people do call its mag form jabs as well — I just wanted to check because I’ve known not a few people who tried to run the “wrong” morph and wondered why their damage was so low.

35k should be more than doable with the mag form.

Lab3360

Vevvev wrote: »

Abilities that cost magicka scale off spell damage and max magicka.

Abilities that cost stamina scale off weapon damage and max stamina.

Abilities that cost health scale off of the damage type they do. Magic, flame, ice, and lightning scale off the same stats as magicka abilities, while physical, bleed, poison, and disease damage scales off the same stats as stamina abilities.

Unless the ability says other wise (Like healing based on max/missing health for instance) if you want to make it better increase the stats that effect it.

Another thing is if you're a vampire magicka templar and are going to be using your class spammable you're throwing sustain to the wind. The non-vampire cost increase is going to eat you alive if you progress your vampire stage since the cost increase gets worse the higher your stage.

The non-vampire cost increase scales like this:

Stages 1/2/3/4
3%/5%/8%/12%

Unless you're taking advantage of your vampire abilities that boost damage being a vampire is only hindering you. If you don't progress your stage to minimize the effects of being a vampire the vampire ultimate which you love will cost you 314 ultimate at stage 1. At stage 2 it will cost you 301 ultimate, 281 ultimate at stage 3, and 254 ultimate at stage 4. I will add that Perfect Scion costs a little less but it is inferior damage wise to Swarming Scion.

Yes..I am using simmering Frenzy. Sweeps is imperative for this reason. I am running swarming scion to get extra boost as well to help compensate the drain from Simmering frenzy.

Vayln_Ninetails

Lab3360 wrote: »

I need your help guys. Cant crack this one. I am trying to build a
Vampiric Magika Templar Puncturing sweeps

How can I get this set up to hit 35k.
Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

I am surrendering anything else in the build. Cp, gear, rotation, skills, mundus stone, etc.

Please help me...Im am lost on this one.
I am completley back at the drawing board on this one.

Might be worth getting rid of vampire. Pretty sure magicka templar with sweeps would run waaaaaay better without it.

Lab3360

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

I need your help guys. Cant crack this one. I am trying to build a
Vampiric Magika Templar Puncturing sweeps

How can I get this set up to hit 35k.
Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

I am surrendering anything else in the build. Cp, gear, rotation, skills, mundus stone, etc.

Please help me...Im am lost on this one.
I am completley back at the drawing board on this one.

Might be worth getting rid of vampire. Pretty sure magicka templar with sweeps would run waaaaaay better without it.

Comment is pretty much not helpful at all.

Vayln_Ninetails

Lab3360 wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

I need your help guys. Cant crack this one. I am trying to build a
Vampiric Magika Templar Puncturing sweeps

How can I get this set up to hit 35k.
Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

I am surrendering anything else in the build. Cp, gear, rotation, skills, mundus stone, etc.

Please help me...Im am lost on this one.
I am completley back at the drawing board on this one.

Might be worth getting rid of vampire. Pretty sure magicka templar with sweeps would run waaaaaay better without it.

Comment is pretty much not helpful at all.

How? You wanted advice on how to make your build better.

Removing vampire would objectively make it better.

supersonic_kitten

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

How? You wanted advice on how to make your build better.

Removing vampire would objectively make it better.

Probably because the original post says this?

Lab3360 wrote: »

Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

To answer to the OP, there's a couple of builds that may be worth checking out:
1. https://www.hacktheminotaur.com/builds/eso-vampire-magicka-templar-pve-build-vamplar
It is a tiny bit outdated (what with changes to templar's Ritual of Retribution, etc), but you can use it as a template and tweak things around to your own liking and make something that is both somewhat viable and fun for you to play.
2. https://arzyelbuilds.com/magicka-templar-vampire-pve-build-unholy/
I am unsure about this one but maybe it will help you get more ideas as to how to go about your own build.

Good luck!

ExistingRug61

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Lab3360

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

I need your help guys. Cant crack this one. I am trying to build a
Vampiric Magika Templar Puncturing sweeps

How can I get this set up to hit 35k.
Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

I am surrendering anything else in the build. Cp, gear, rotation, skills, mundus stone, etc.

Please help me...Im am lost on this one.
I am completley back at the drawing board on this one.

Might be worth getting rid of vampire. Pretty sure magicka templar with sweeps would run waaaaaay better without it.

Comment is pretty much not helpful at all.

How? You wanted advice on how to make your build better.

Removing vampire would objectively make it better.

I clearly stated I was keeping sweeps and vampire ulti......

"Clearly"

Lab3360

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Thank you for the theorycrafting. Your obviously someone who actually take the time to put thought into what I stated. I really want to make vampire work for templar. I think vampire really compliments temolar kit and fills in a lot of deficiencies. It feels like the pieces of the puzzle are there. Its a matter of arrangement.

Thank you very much for the theorycrafting.

I have been using Simmering Frenzy ro up the spell damage while offsetting Frenzy drain with sweeps. Yes...the issue of activating other skills outside sweeps when Frenzy really begains to overtake health without constans sweeps....Ring of The Pale order may be just enought if you can tine multiple aoe's in time enough

ExistingRug61

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Thank you for the theorycrafting. Your obviously someone who actually take the time to put thought into what I stated. I really want to make vampire work for templar. I think vampire really compliments temolar kit and fills in a lot of deficiencies. It feels like the pieces of the puzzle are there. Its a matter of arrangement.

Thank you very much for the theorycrafting.

I have been using Simmering Frenzy ro up the spell damage while offsetting Frenzy drain with sweeps. Yes...the issue of activating other skills outside sweeps when Frenzy really begains to overtake health without constans sweeps.

No worries, like I said it is something I had been playing around with anyway, although on different classes. Templar has some features that lend itself well to this idea though, being healing on sweeps, and crit damage, cost reduction and minor sorcery from passives.

The new ring does sort of help with rotation issue and keeping heals up, but locks you in to never receiving outside heals. It still requires either a big hit or having lots of dots running though to keep the heals sufficient. You really have to plan the rotation if you want to cast a non instant damage skill or buff once frenzy has lots of stacks. Even casting the vampire ult may need some thought if the aim is to do this at the max of frenzy.

One thing I considered was something like having a rotation that used rapid regen just before casting a bunch of dots, in templars case blazing spear, solar barrage etc, before going back to sweeps before the regen expires. Would fail if your regen happens to smart target anyone else though, and the lost GCD casting regen might mean its not actually worth it either vs a single target.

Lab3360

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Thank you for the theorycrafting. Your obviously someone who actually take the time to put thought into what I stated. I really want to make vampire work for templar. I think vampire really compliments temolar kit and fills in a lot of deficiencies. It feels like the pieces of the puzzle are there. Its a matter of arrangement.

Thank you very much for the theorycrafting.

I have been using Simmering Frenzy ro up the spell damage while offsetting Frenzy drain with sweeps. Yes...the issue of activating other skills outside sweeps when Frenzy really begains to overtake health without constans sweeps.

No worries, like I said it is something I had been playing around with anyway, although on different classes. Templar has some features that lend itself well to this idea though, being healing on sweeps, and crit damage, cost reduction and minor sorcery from passives.

The new ring does sort of help with rotation issue and keeping heals up, but locks you in to never receiving outside heals. It still requires either a big hit or having lots of dots running though to keep the heals sufficient. You really have to plan the rotation if you want to cast a non instant damage skill or buff once frenzy has lots of stacks. Even casting the vampire ult may need some thought if the aim is to do this at the max of frenzy.

One thing I considered was something like having a rotation that used rapid regen just before casting a bunch of dots, in templars case blazing spear, solar barrage etc, before going back to sweeps before the regen expires. Would fail if your regen happens to smart target anyone else though, and the lost GCD casting regen might mean its not actually worth it either vs a single target.

That is other issue. Multiple target vs single target. Sweeps is a frontal cone and is direct damge while most of the other templar skills are aoe. I have adjust cp primarily between Master at Arms and Thaurmaturge. Does that seem reasonable? There seem to be loss when only concentrating into one or the other

ExistingRug61

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Thank you for the theorycrafting. Your obviously someone who actually take the time to put thought into what I stated. I really want to make vampire work for templar. I think vampire really compliments temolar kit and fills in a lot of deficiencies. It feels like the pieces of the puzzle are there. Its a matter of arrangement.

Thank you very much for the theorycrafting.

I have been using Simmering Frenzy ro up the spell damage while offsetting Frenzy drain with sweeps. Yes...the issue of activating other skills outside sweeps when Frenzy really begains to overtake health without constans sweeps.

No worries, like I said it is something I had been playing around with anyway, although on different classes. Templar has some features that lend itself well to this idea though, being healing on sweeps, and crit damage, cost reduction and minor sorcery from passives.

The new ring does sort of help with rotation issue and keeping heals up, but locks you in to never receiving outside heals. It still requires either a big hit or having lots of dots running though to keep the heals sufficient. You really have to plan the rotation if you want to cast a non instant damage skill or buff once frenzy has lots of stacks. Even casting the vampire ult may need some thought if the aim is to do this at the max of frenzy.

One thing I considered was something like having a rotation that used rapid regen just before casting a bunch of dots, in templars case blazing spear, solar barrage etc, before going back to sweeps before the regen expires. Would fail if your regen happens to smart target anyone else though, and the lost GCD casting regen might mean its not actually worth it either vs a single target.

That is other issue. Multiple target vs single target. Sweeps is a frontal cone and is direct damge while most of the other templar skills are aoe. I have adjust cp primarily between Master at Arms and Thaurmaturge. Does that seem reasonable? There seem to be loss when only concentrating into one or the other

Yeah seems reasonable to balance between as templar skills has both direct and DoT as you mention (Radiant is another DoT too). So the CP diminishing returns system would imply a balance is best if both are used, as well as the other magicka relevant CP like Elemental Expert and Elfborn. There would be an optimal distribution based on the exact ratio of skills used in the rotation, but this sort of optimisation is beyond my level of theorycrafting.

Lab3360

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Thank you for the theorycrafting. Your obviously someone who actually take the time to put thought into what I stated. I really want to make vampire work for templar. I think vampire really compliments temolar kit and fills in a lot of deficiencies. It feels like the pieces of the puzzle are there. Its a matter of arrangement.

Thank you very much for the theorycrafting.

I have been using Simmering Frenzy ro up the spell damage while offsetting Frenzy drain with sweeps. Yes...the issue of activating other skills outside sweeps when Frenzy really begains to overtake health without constans sweeps.

No worries, like I said it is something I had been playing around with anyway, although on different classes. Templar has some features that lend itself well to this idea though, being healing on sweeps, and crit damage, cost reduction and minor sorcery from passives.

The new ring does sort of help with rotation issue and keeping heals up, but locks you in to never receiving outside heals. It still requires either a big hit or having lots of dots running though to keep the heals sufficient. You really have to plan the rotation if you want to cast a non instant damage skill or buff once frenzy has lots of stacks. Even casting the vampire ult may need some thought if the aim is to do this at the max of frenzy.

One thing I considered was something like having a rotation that used rapid regen just before casting a bunch of dots, in templars case blazing spear, solar barrage etc, before going back to sweeps before the regen expires. Would fail if your regen happens to smart target anyone else though, and the lost GCD casting regen might mean its not actually worth it either vs a single target.

That is other issue. Multiple target vs single target. Sweeps is a frontal cone and is direct damge while most of the other templar skills are aoe. I have adjust cp primarily between Master at Arms and Thaurmaturge. Does that seem reasonable? There seem to be loss when only concentrating into one or the other

Yeah seems reasonable to balance between as templar skills has both direct and DoT as you mention (Radiant is another DoT too). So the CP diminishing returns system would imply a balance is best if both are used, as well as the other magicka relevant CP like Elemental Expert and Elfborn. There would be an optimal distribution based on the exact ratio of skills used in the rotation, but this sort of optimisation is beyond my level of theorycrafting.

I really appreciate what you have offered

ExistingRug61

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Lab3360 wrote: »

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

Given the desire to be heavily vampire themed, a somewhat off meta suggestion is you could consider fully committing to a self sustaining simmering frenzy idea to really double down on the vampire theme, provided you can wait until next patch (and assuming Ring of the Pale Order makes it through in some semblance of its current self).

Something like
5x Vampire Lord on shoulders, hands, waist, legs, feet
5x a crit set to give multiplicative scaling of frenzy, Medusa is probably the simplest, on weapons, neck, one ring, and chest
1x any spell crit giving monster set in medium
1x Ring of the Pale Order
3x infused reduce skill cost on jewellery
Precise Destro front bar, not sure if Fire or Lightning is better (lightning passive buffs sweeps I think, but still might not be better)
Some extra investment in health maybe to make frenzy easier to manage, depending on personal taste (tri glyphs on armour?)
Other off meta change would be requiring heavy investment in blessed and quick recovery in CP.

This gives up a lot of potential damage to significantly cheapen frenzy when stage 4 (starting cost would be ~740 h/s on templar I think). Given the self healing from sweeps, plus the ring, this should mean it can be kept up for quite a long time. At about 20-25 sec it would be giving ~2k spell damage, and this is where the damage would start to pass normal stat sets I think, so to be worth it vs normal sets and glyphs it would need to be sustained well past this.

A side effect would be further cheapening the vamp ult so you can cast it more.

Rotation would need to heavily focus on sweeps to keep healing up, so could be something as simple as Purifying Light / 5x Sweeps (swap to Radiant Glory spam when that becomes higher damage). Purifying Light is needed as a cheap skill to give the minor sorcery buff it isn't already present, as well as ult gen. Working other skills in like AoE dots may not be possible as this could lead to a dip in healing while setting them up which may lose frenzy.

May need a resto back bar with a heal to give an option to swap to that to keep frenzy to cover any small periods where you can't actually be dealing damage with sweeps.

The complexity would come from figuring out how to manage frenzy for optimal effect. Conceptually I think it would depend on how long you can comfortably sustain frenzy. Say this is up to 60sec (at which point the cost would be somewhere around 9.5k h/s). You would want to have started frenzy so that this peak coincides with when you get enough ult for vamp lord ult, at which point using the ult would give additional health and healing to keep it up longer, as well as meaning your ult gets the maximum benefit of frenzy. Conveniently, given an average gain of ult of 3 u/s and the reduced cost of the ult down to 193, this might simply mean that frenzy gets restarted after each ult ends.

Some possible difficulties include
1) Sustaining sweeps, which while helped by the reduce skill glyphs is hampered by vampire lord at stage 4. And maintaining sweeps is crucial to having healing for frenzy upkeep. Next patch buff to Intellect could help, and might want radiant aura double barred just for the passive regen?
2) Having to rely on your own healing. Sweeps + Ring of the Pale order should provide surplus healing vs the cost of frenzy, but it may not be enough depending on the content you want to run. Including the Ring means this is always the case (unlike just having frenzy which could be turned off), which may be too much of a downside in group content, but not an issue if its for solo though.

Just tossing some ideas out there as a possible direction but I haven't tried it so can't actually say that this will be a good idea.
Pushing the limits of frenzy is something I have been messing around with lately, and this is one possible area it may be more viable that I had been considering but hadn't got around to trying yet.

Thank you for the theorycrafting. Your obviously someone who actually take the time to put thought into what I stated. I really want to make vampire work for templar. I think vampire really compliments temolar kit and fills in a lot of deficiencies. It feels like the pieces of the puzzle are there. Its a matter of arrangement.

Thank you very much for the theorycrafting.

I have been using Simmering Frenzy ro up the spell damage while offsetting Frenzy drain with sweeps. Yes...the issue of activating other skills outside sweeps when Frenzy really begains to overtake health without constans sweeps.

No worries, like I said it is something I had been playing around with anyway, although on different classes. Templar has some features that lend itself well to this idea though, being healing on sweeps, and crit damage, cost reduction and minor sorcery from passives.

The new ring does sort of help with rotation issue and keeping heals up, but locks you in to never receiving outside heals. It still requires either a big hit or having lots of dots running though to keep the heals sufficient. You really have to plan the rotation if you want to cast a non instant damage skill or buff once frenzy has lots of stacks. Even casting the vampire ult may need some thought if the aim is to do this at the max of frenzy.

One thing I considered was something like having a rotation that used rapid regen just before casting a bunch of dots, in templars case blazing spear, solar barrage etc, before going back to sweeps before the regen expires. Would fail if your regen happens to smart target anyone else though, and the lost GCD casting regen might mean its not actually worth it either vs a single target.

That is other issue. Multiple target vs single target. Sweeps is a frontal cone and is direct damge while most of the other templar skills are aoe. I have adjust cp primarily between Master at Arms and Thaurmaturge. Does that seem reasonable? There seem to be loss when only concentrating into one or the other

Yeah seems reasonable to balance between as templar skills has both direct and DoT as you mention (Radiant is another DoT too). So the CP diminishing returns system would imply a balance is best if both are used, as well as the other magicka relevant CP like Elemental Expert and Elfborn. There would be an optimal distribution based on the exact ratio of skills used in the rotation, but this sort of optimisation is beyond my level of theorycrafting.

I really appreciate what you have offered

No worries, good luck with the build!

Lab3360

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

Vayln_Ninetails wrote: »

How? You wanted advice on how to make your build better.

Removing vampire would objectively make it better.

Probably because the original post says this?

Lab3360 wrote: »

Please consider I am keeping sweeps and Vampire Lord ulti though I realize it may not be optimal with magika builds. This is a lore character so I need to keep those 2 items

To answer to the OP, there's a couple of builds that may be worth checking out:
1. https://www.hacktheminotaur.com/builds/eso-vampire-magicka-templar-pve-build-vamplar
It is a tiny bit outdated (what with changes to templar's Ritual of Retribution, etc), but you can use it as a template and tweak things around to your own liking and make something that is both somewhat viable and fun for you to play.
2. https://arzyelbuilds.com/magicka-templar-vampire-pve-build-unholy/
I am unsure about this one but maybe it will help you get more ideas as to how to go about your own build.

Good luck!

Thank you