A (partial) solution to power creep and pvp/pve balance through major/minor slayer?

plinytheelderscroll

First time posting though I’ve played for nearly 5 years. I just want to throw something out to the community and see what folks think.

This game has suffered from a couple of key issues:

1. The division (or lack of) between PVE and PVP combat
2. Differential power between really good players/optimized groups and more casual/less able players - resulting in ZOS having enormous difficulty providing a challenge for advanced players while keeping content (particularly trials) accessible more generally.

Something that I think has been overlooked that may help overcome this is the use of the major and minor slayer passives. This is because:

1. These skills have no effect on pvp
2. They provide an enormous overall damage output boost that an entire group can immediately capitalize on without changing anything. This make it a perfect candidate for addressing power differential in PVE without hurting PVP.

Trial groups that have access to this see a large increase in their dps. You could argue that access is fairly easy, with RO and the changes to MA and WM now, but maintaining good uptimes requires skill and coordination - not to mention gear farming - which can be tough for more causal players, particularly trial gear. So here’s what I would suggest:

Make a craftable set that has a 5 piece bonus that is “dealing damage grants you major and minor slayer for 9 seconds. This effect can occur once every 12 seconds”. This would guarantee players access to both slayers 75% of the time. They would of course, lose the ability to run another damage set, but it would be worth it for this buff if they weren’t getting it from elsewhere or for a sufficient amount of time that it generated more damage to substitute for this.

Of course, advanced players would opt out of this if they could reliably source these buffs from a support role or other “charitable” dps player.

If everyone had reliable access to this hugely powerful buff then overall damage could be tuned down. This would result in a relative dps increase for more causal players, but still allow optimized groups to outperform them and have an incentive to progress and improve. All without hurting anything in PVP.

I would like to see the slayer passives become basically the brutality/sorcery of trials. An essential and easily accessible buff that helps lower level players get more damage.

I would also suggest that the proposed nerf to the slayers does not happen and instead great access is allowed (as explained here) with an overall tuning down of damage to compensate.

Another possibility is changing it from a % damage increase to a Flat damage boost like Yoln. Maybe 256 wd/sd for minor and 512 for major? Math needed here obvs.

Please note - for the New set suggestion I did not do the math! Maybe It would need to be 100% uptime to be viable. The trick is to make it so it can be outperformed by running another set when in a more optimized group and another source is available, even if not 100% of the time.

The new set would be a must have for the trial beginner that they would phase out as their group progressed or they joined more experienced ones.

Another idea is looking at crit versions of the slayers and turning down overall crit. Too much maybe?!

Just an idea. Would love to see what folks think, particularly those who understand math!

plinytheelderscroll

Another way to conceive of this is major/minor slayer as the “battle spirit of PVE.”

Hotdog_23

Interesting idea.

Be safe and have fun

BXR_Lonestar

I understand what your argument and I do believe it has some merit. And while I would welcome an "evening of the playing field" in this manner, I don't think this is going to actually address the power creep issue. IMO, power creep is only a problem in so much as the developers often end up balancing the game for those top tier players to maintain some semblance of difficulty, which of course, then leaves everyone else out in the cold. The game becomes less accessible at that point.

That said, I don't think power creep's main source is due to lack of availability of gear. Anyone can go get relequens or sioria's mantle, as NCR is very easy. Ditto NSS. As such, most of the higher end trial gear is accessible to everyone.

IMO, what accounts for the largest difference in DPS is that top-end players have the time to spend in front of their trial dummies to perfect their rotations, so they're able to sustain in long-term fights with minimal investment in their sustain. This means they can gear their character with gear skewed more towards damage rather than sustain.

A second component contributing to the damage difference between top end players and lower end players is animation canceling to achieve higher attacks per minute than an average player can make.

Issue #1 is more of a time-investment issue, and Zos can literally do nothing about this. Its pointless to even try. More experienced players are always going to have more refined builds that have more damage potential.

Issue #2 Zos CAN do something about this by fixing the animation cancelling. This would put everyone on an even playing field in terms of attacks-per-minute (I know APM is really actions per minute, but since we're talking DPS, it seems appropriate to replace actions with "attacks") so that everyone is at the same performance level in terms of the number of attacks they can do in the same given span. At that point, the factors that contribute to damage differential between the bottom tier players and the top tier players is gear, champion point settings, and experience. All of which can be perfected through experience playing the game.

plinytheelderscroll

Thanks for replying in such detail.

For #1: Agree. I think all animations should have a standard GCD duration. Perhaps 0.6 sec. that would give a bigger window to get both attacks in during the 1 second window. Then you just have to work on your rhythm and get those light attacks off on the beat! Obvs exceptions for attacks with specified channels/cast times.

For #2: One idea would be to lower the damage that light attacks do, as that would reduce the overall power of weaving and be less punishing overall. I think they tried this though and there was some squealing from both PVE and PvP quarters. I still think it’s a good idea though.

I also still think that giving high uptime access to the slayer passives newer groups would be a big benefit, but that it’s only part of the solution. I had a long convo with some guild idea yesterday on this and was admonished (politely) for suggesting the ceiling be lowered. I still disagree. I think the gap between casual and elite is way to big and asks to much of people to the point it’s detrimental. Just my thoughts though and I respect differing opinions.

Thanks again for replying.

Mobius0

I just think they should make buffs either a toggle or significantly longer duration.

Having to constantly keep buffs up that last for a few seconds is beyond annoying and by far the largest turn off for me in ESO combat.

Getting rid of this constant buff and skill juggle would go a long way to fix balance, I think.

Everest_Lionheart

The sets themselves are just a small piece of the equation. It still comes down to rotation in the end. The good players manage to get near 100% uptime on all their skills and flow smoothly through their rotations are are careful not to miss LA’s or overcast skills which waste rss contributing to sustain issues and/or loss of dps.

Now many rotations can be static meaning every action is input in the same order and once you are in your rotation you just keep following the order and repeating the same order. Now may times this can result in skills either lapsing by a second or two or being recast a second or two before their timers run out. The former hurts dps the latter can hurt sustain. Recasting a second early is a better option over letting the timers expire.

To really get the most out of a rotation you need to keep it dynamic which means recasting dots and buffs as they run out so nothing either overlaps or runs out. It can mean bar swapping to hit one skill and swapping back to get back to the spamable part of your rotation. The next effect being that you will be able to squeeze in several more spamables over the course of a couple minutes. The hidden effect here is that bar swapping is the quickest and most effective way to cancel some of those really long animations like endless hail on stamina and WoE on magicka. Every 2 casts of those skills with the animation cancel is going to pretty much buy you 1 more spamable. You may not use that extra GCD now but when you’ve saved up enough GCD’s it. An add up to an extra full rotation. It’s just better efficiency.

Now some rotations work out well statically because they are built on similar timers. Magplar for instance is several 10 second dots and buffs with PotL being 5 seconds plus 4 spams and repeating until execute phase. You end up dropping trap early to keep the buff up or you farm Medusa and keep 100% uptime of that buff and replace with a different dot like soul consuming trap for extra dmg. MagDK has a similar rotation with its 14 second dots which is why MagDK often parses higher because 4 extra spam attacks but sustain is more challenging.

Without trials equipment it’s still possible to put up good numbers if you have your rotation down. Neither of my mag toons that I mentioned above are wearing trials gear. Both are in Mother’s Sorrow and Julianos with Maw monster sets and maelstrom backbar. I’m hitting 67K on MagDK and 62K on Magplar at CP620. That’s more than enough to get the job done on any regular trial and good enough to get into most vet trials so long as it’s not a score or trifecta run.

I’m actually not even going for trials gear on MagDK. Looking at BSW plus Medusa which I’m 2 divine body pieces from BSW and 1 ring from completing for Medusa. And looking at war maiden and medusa combo for magplar. Second set of medusa is a stretch though got lucky with 1 inferno staff not sure how long to get a second!

BXR_Lonestar

Mobius0 wrote: »

I just think they should make buffs either a toggle or significantly longer duration.

Having to constantly keep buffs up that last for a few seconds is beyond annoying and by far the largest turn off for me in ESO combat.

Getting rid of this constant buff and skill juggle would go a long way to fix balance, I think.

Exactly this. Who the heck things a 3 second duration for a buff is adequate?

I love a lot about this game, but the combat system is by far and away my LEAST favorite part of the game, which is why I main support rather than DPS. I'd rather the buffs be long-lived, and the pace of combat slowed somewhat so that you have to work your way through encounters methodically.

I know some people enjoy the current combat system, but it is not for me, and its a major turn off. I don't like feeling like I have to button mash in a certain order and be right on the edge of breaking my control to get what is considered a "decent" DPS output. I would love for them to revise the combat system so that you don't have to play like that in order to get a trial-viable DPS rating. It would definitely make the game more accessible and enjoyable IMO.