Whats with tanks being so powerful in PvP?

cheesefome

I don't see the point of going "DPS" when a tank does just as much damage while being tanky.

Today I was in a BG where 3 tanks with AOE's did nothing but just block and cancelled everyone in the lobby like an eraser. Ive been wanting to make a post for a while thinking " oh maybe i'll learn something i haven't yet " but that has not been the case. What i have learned is if tanks go aoe builds they tend to pretty much delete you.

Those AOE's should get tunned down a bit, it's an AOE. I can't be the only person who finds "tank" builds extremely toxic. They literally do nothing but block. How is that a thing? But me? i have to dodge/block/time my skills ect ect... Keep in mind they are constantly doing damage from blocking.

The other day i was in imperial city, 1 guy, tanking entire lobby, killing people by the masses. A couple days ago as well... i see this 1 guy tanking 5-8 people, killing them 1 by 1 despite them all hitting him at the same time. He was in my faction. Is this really the way tank builds were intended to be used? I don't see healers doing the same thing and DPS usually get squashed with 1-2 cc's and they most certainly can't tank 5-8 people much less an entire lobby. So why is it that tanks are the exception? Tanks should be tanks, not TANKS/DPS/healer.

West93

There are no such thing as tank/dps/healer in pvp if you build for solo.

Build enough sustain, resistance and damage to be able to kill potatos.

If he was stamina warden or necromancer it's very possible to tank 5-8 players who just light attack and don't land burst.

However if same players with such build dueled each other most likely they could not finish each other, that's why in dueling tournaments there are rules which sets/skills/potions you can use to avoid stalemate.

CaiWenji

It will be harder for tanks after the next big update major protection is being nerfed from 30% to 10%.

Sergykid

i suppose you talk about CP pvp. Avoid this place, has no arguments.
in no CP pvp you can barely survive one attacker if you play tanky. Sure there's also here those impossible tanks that kill you, but it's much rarer and usually they can't survive more than two people

West93

Sergykid wrote: »

i suppose you talk about CP pvp. Avoid this place, has no arguments.
in no CP pvp you can barely survive one attacker if you play tanky. Sure there's also here those impossible tanks that kill you, but it's much rarer and usually they can't survive more than two people

No cp is full of procsets and huge class disbalance.

Compare same stamina templar to stamina sorcerer in no cp.

Stamsorc can go full proctard and his darkdeal crit surge does not care about low weapon damage.

While in cp fight will be much more fair for these classes.

West93

CaiWenji wrote: »

It will be harder for tanks after the next big update major protection is being nerfed from 30% to 10%.

While necromancer spirit guardian gives 10% mitigation which means next patch necromancers will have 100% uptime equal mitigation to new major protection.

Oof such a p2w.

BangX

Being tanky and dealing a lot of damage is meta now, Why run a glass cannon build when you could just wear 5 piece heavy armor and have over 30k+ health while still dealing as much damage as a glass cannon by using proc sets.

The only way to balance this is by making proc sets scale with offensive resources and having longer cooldowns.

Sahidom

They can address proc sets from being too overbearing by simply having proc sets stand on their own e.g. not influenced by resource pools, weapon/spell damage, or champion points; this would drop their current effectiveness; BUT than allow them to be adjusted in a compartmentalized approach.

Instead, the suggestion would be simply bonus effects to the character builds than be a substitute for using class or non-class skills for damage, defense etc., in general PVE/PVP gameplay. This won't change or nullify the tank AOE meta mentioned here.

Call this a nerf cry or whatever, its an opinion that wouldn't ruin proc sets except properly classifying what their set roles are when you gain bonus effects on character builds.

Recapitated

Sergykid wrote: »

i suppose you talk about CP pvp. Avoid this place, has no arguments.
in no CP pvp you can barely survive one attacker if you play tanky. Sure there's also here those impossible tanks that kill you, but it's much rarer and usually they can't survive more than two people

OP mentioned BGs so apparently not limited to noCP.

OP, do you remember what was in your death recap? I haven't been in BGs for a bit but I played one with a 38k health tank that I just ignored for the whole fight unless the rest of their team was dead. Look at the score at the end of the fight and they've got 14 kills somehow. I asked them what they were running but they said "just warden things" lol.

linuxlady

Play to learn

ssewallb14_ESO

♫ malacath and procs, malacath and procs ♫

BangX

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

♫ malacath and procs, malacath and procs ♫

Nerf it to 12% and it would be balanced.

PizzaCat82

linuxlady wrote: »

Play to learn

no

Qbiken

[img][/img]
The reason people build tanky is because every single player in NOCP abuse *** like shown in the picture above (showing damage taken after a fight in Cyrodil, and this picture is more or less representative for any given outnumbered fight in NOCP atm). If you want to encourage people to play a bit more risky and not full tank mode, all these proc-sets (and snipe) in nocp needs a fat nerf.

ssewallb14_ESO

Not like we told them this would happen on PTS and had literal videos of 45k health wardens killing people with light attacks or anything.

cheesefome

It's a relieve to know I'm not alone on this one.

I was worried people were just going to tell me "L2P". I guess it's hard to argue that tank builds are a bit on the powerful side when they are tanking entire lobbies in imperial city. My hopes are that, someone important see's this post and considers tweaking the sets. I think the reason sets are broken is cause tanks can build tanky and still get damage bonuses, which when i look at some of these sets, make no sense. Honestly some of these sets are better than the sets ive been using as a medium armor user.

Canned_Apples

They don’t care.

DrSlaughtr

If I had my druthers l, wearing 5 heavy body pieces would significantly lower damage. Kinda tired if getting hit with 8k dizzys and 10k executions through my own CP and gear by someone with 35k+ health and 30k+ resistances. It's mostly, but not entirely, a Stam issue, which already has access to higher weapon damage.

shimm

Proc sets and tanks builds in the hands of skilled players = tanks that do as much damage as any straight dps and are nearly impossible to kill. Some good suggestions here though, particularly making proc sets flat damage amounts not scaling with max stats.

Sergykid

Sahidom wrote: »

They can address proc sets from being too overbearing by simply having proc sets stand on their own e.g. not influenced by resource pools, weapon/spell damage, or champion points; this would drop their current effectiveness;

shimm wrote: »

Proc sets and tanks builds in the hands of skilled players = tanks that do as much damage as any straight dps and are nearly impossible to kill. Some good suggestions here though, particularly making proc sets flat damage amounts not scaling with max stats.

did you two got it wrong by coincidence? proc sets having flat damage not influenced by stats is the actual problem now. You build full tank and you deal almost the same damage with a proc set like someone that is a glass cannon. Proc sets need actually to scale with stats like mag and spd. A proc set for example that now live has 7k damage, should have 4k base and 7k if you build for it to deal that much.

Swordancer

I become NB tank in PvP. I can handle like 10 zergs or 5 more expirenced people like a boss. What is wrong about it? Everything. This game isn't playable in PvP when it's set based. It's like something is too powerfull it is nerfed. If its neferd other thing are powerfull, these got nerfed too. Other thing got too powerfull, we got circle in here. There is no class balance, there is no set balance, there is no roles in PvP. All we got are lags for sure.

With so many abilities, skills, sets, they lost control over the game when they created it. All you can do is try to keep up with what is good to fight with, I means sets, builds all that stuff. However, do not think that if you win, you are good. You have no idea then how the game looks like when your skills really matters. You are just up to date.

Thats it, thank you.

Ruder

Tonks like this OP?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahMvxwJnNg

StarOfElyon

What streamers will tell you is it's all L2P. That's why build videos are so popular then, right?

Wing

tanks OP for the same reason proc sets are, its easy to throw on the correct tank sets and hold block if you know what to do.

its alot harder to ani cancel, time burst, los, manage your resources, perfect your weave, etc. then it is to slap on some sets and let them do the work.

i for one switched to tank in pvp because i was tired of being the last one trying to use traditional damage sets in a proc meta, and for DK outside of leap just lacks the skills to compete compared to every other class, especially the DLC ones.

Hotdog_23

Ruder wrote: »

Tonks like this OP?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YahMvxwJnNg

Now don't go linking videos of weak little puppies. Everyone on the forums will tell you easy they are to kill and not OP

Moonsorrow

cheesefome wrote: »

I don't see the point of going "DPS" when a tank does just as much damage while being tanky.

Today I was in a BG where 3 tanks with AOE's did nothing but just block and cancelled everyone in the lobby like an eraser. Ive been wanting to make a post for a while thinking " oh maybe i'll learn something i haven't yet " but that has not been the case. What i have learned is if tanks go aoe builds they tend to pretty much delete you.

Those AOE's should get tunned down a bit, it's an AOE. I can't be the only person who finds "tank" builds extremely toxic. They literally do nothing but block. How is that a thing? But me? i have to dodge/block/time my skills ect ect... Keep in mind they are constantly doing damage from blocking.

The other day i was in imperial city, 1 guy, tanking entire lobby, killing people by the masses. A couple days ago as well... i see this 1 guy tanking 5-8 people, killing them 1 by 1 despite them all hitting him at the same time. He was in my faction. Is this really the way tank builds were intended to be used? I don't see healers doing the same thing and DPS usually get squashed with 1-2 cc's and they most certainly can't tank 5-8 people much less an entire lobby. So why is it that tanks are the exception? Tanks should be tanks, not TANKS/DPS/healer.

Hint: Use your damaging abilities to kill them.

On a more serious note, in this game we have almost combined (Battle Spirit allows for some adjustments strictly for PVP) balancing so when people want generally just "tanks" nerfed - you do realize how much it would affect PVE side of things? Like tanking Veteran difficulty content like the hardest Trials? So it is not so simple to balance things keeping that in mind.

And the builds what people describe as "tanks" are not tanks. Most often you are all roles in one and with all the high damage (after people DEMANDED the tank meta to end, remember?

And ZOS nerfed most defensive sets like what many wanted.. and hey, here we are now. So since damage is so high (Spectral bow procs as an example can be like 8-15k even through 30-35k resistances on a SnB bar) people who play solo competitively had to build even more sturdy with even more HP to act as a buffer to not get instantly deleted and to benefit from % based heals since after the healing nerfs (what people wanted...) thats all you can do.

So.. we are here BECAUSE people wanted things nerfed, ZOS did that.. and i guess people got what they wanted, right? Right? So once realizing that - asking for more nerfs without thinking on what that then will result in might not be the wisest of ideas. Experienced people are good at adapting to changes in a way that ZOS cannot pre-emptively even guess most times. So most often more nerfs just hurt the people who were asking them in the first place.

Now we got strong procs and tanky people, combined and full glass cannons on specs that can do it. Couple classes thrive the best on this current meta, and of course there are couple that are good at potato farming even without building for being tanky. Those that enjoy playing a melee "brawler" (teh power fantasy of being the Conan you always wanted to be), HAS to build tanky or get erased by the Legolas3000 rp Archers who often move as a team, since what is better than Snipe spam other than TWO or more Snipe spammers.

So you build tanky or you die in seconds. Tanky builds one downside is, when you meet another one like it and skill level is equal it will end up in a stalemate. So you hunt for not so experienced ones, who then complain about "tanks" killing them. Same Legolas3000 (and dear Mods, no naming and shaming or hurting the feelings of Legolas3000 happened during typing this text, since it was an example random imaginary name that was first one to pop in my head when thought about a name to a typical Sniper) as a ranged build is fine for using 2 proc sets on same not so experienced people to farm them from a safe space, but also wants that melee brawler to die in seconds before even reaching them for a proper fight.

Conclusion: While everything is broken (procs, mythics, burst, being tanky) then nothing really is broken. You just pick your choice of broken setup (called meta) or a fun build for your own playstyle and go play it. No point in trying to get nerfed the thing that counters your own broken setup. You should all know after all these years, that those nerfs have just made things even more crazy. Stop for a moment and thing about this and the past and where we are now. You should come to the same conclusion if you play all classes and specs and are able to remove bias from your own playstyle if it is limiting your view.

People have demanded nerfs for years and ZOS has done huge blanket nerfs and changes. Has the game turned into a balanced game? Seek the answer from your heart.

Also you cannot start balancing this game on some 1vs1 scenarios on pvp between classes/specs and Conan vs Legolas3000, because of the group dynamics, remember this is not just a solo game, also pve side of things and all the gear options we have available for everyone and with the new gear that comes in all the time. Mission Impossible. People have tried that for years.

So it is what it is. Just adapt. They will change classes and sets again at next big updates. New chapter will bring new "OP" stuff. It will happen, accepting that fact will make your gaming experience a lot better. Just use your imagination to make crazy builds yourself too. Atleast we got a LOT of crazy combinations now possible.

Ackwalan

Next time you see 10 people fighting a tank like that. Run up to him and use bash, count to 3 and bash again. Repeat until win.

Aleinzzs

Lol I don't see any issues since the last patch. As @Hotdog_23 said many nerfs already happened. While proc sets are a little dumb in non cp, they can be worked around in cp play with little to no problems, I personally haven't died to a proc set in pvp unless it was a situation where I was already dead. Aka 30 people catch me with my pants down checking my inventory etc etc etc.

Then we can add onto the fact that tankiness is getting further nerfed next patch. Major protection nerfs etc.


Imo you need to adjust your build more,work on your damage combos,and if all else fails leave the bg and go to blackreach.You'll have more fun with the group.

cheesefome

Moonsorrow wrote: »

cheesefome wrote: »

I don't see the point of going "DPS" when a tank does just as much damage while being tanky.

Today I was in a BG where 3 tanks with AOE's did nothing but just block and cancelled everyone in the lobby like an eraser. Ive been wanting to make a post for a while thinking " oh maybe i'll learn something i haven't yet " but that has not been the case. What i have learned is if tanks go aoe builds they tend to pretty much delete you.

Those AOE's should get tunned down a bit, it's an AOE. I can't be the only person who finds "tank" builds extremely toxic. They literally do nothing but block. How is that a thing? But me? i have to dodge/block/time my skills ect ect... Keep in mind they are constantly doing damage from blocking.

The other day i was in imperial city, 1 guy, tanking entire lobby, killing people by the masses. A couple days ago as well... i see this 1 guy tanking 5-8 people, killing them 1 by 1 despite them all hitting him at the same time. He was in my faction. Is this really the way tank builds were intended to be used? I don't see healers doing the same thing and DPS usually get squashed with 1-2 cc's and they most certainly can't tank 5-8 people much less an entire lobby. So why is it that tanks are the exception? Tanks should be tanks, not TANKS/DPS/healer.

Hint: Use your damaging abilities to kill them.

On a more serious note, in this game we have almost combined (Battle Spirit allows for some adjustments strictly for PVP) balancing so when people want generally just "tanks" nerfed - you do realize how much it would affect PVE side of things? Like tanking Veteran difficulty content like the hardest Trials? So it is not so simple to balance things keeping that in mind.

And the builds what people describe as "tanks" are not tanks. Most often you are all roles in one and with all the high damage (after people DEMANDED the tank meta to end, remember?

And ZOS nerfed most defensive sets like what many wanted.. and hey, here we are now. So since damage is so high (Spectral bow procs as an example can be like 8-15k even through 30-35k resistances on a SnB bar) people who play solo competitively had to build even more sturdy with even more HP to act as a buffer to not get instantly deleted and to benefit from % based heals since after the healing nerfs (what people wanted...) thats all you can do.

So.. we are here BECAUSE people wanted things nerfed, ZOS did that.. and i guess people got what they wanted, right? Right? So once realizing that - asking for more nerfs without thinking on what that then will result in might not be the wisest of ideas. Experienced people are good at adapting to changes in a way that ZOS cannot pre-emptively even guess most times. So most often more nerfs just hurt the people who were asking them in the first place.

Now we got strong procs and tanky people, combined and full glass cannons on specs that can do it. Couple classes thrive the best on this current meta, and of course there are couple that are good at potato farming even without building for being tanky. Those that enjoy playing a melee "brawler" (teh power fantasy of being the Conan you always wanted to be), HAS to build tanky or get erased by the Legolas3000 rp Archers who often move as a team, since what is better than Snipe spam other than TWO or more Snipe spammers.

So you build tanky or you die in seconds. Tanky builds one downside is, when you meet another one like it and skill level is equal it will end up in a stalemate. So you hunt for not so experienced ones, who then complain about "tanks" killing them. Same Legolas3000 (and dear Mods, no naming and shaming or hurting the feelings of Legolas3000 happened during typing this text, since it was an example random imaginary name that was first one to pop in my head when thought about a name to a typical Sniper) as a ranged build is fine for using 2 proc sets on same not so experienced people to farm them from a safe space, but also wants that melee brawler to die in seconds before even reaching them for a proper fight.

Conclusion: While everything is broken (procs, mythics, burst, being tanky) then nothing really is broken. You just pick your choice of broken setup (called meta) or a fun build for your own playstyle and go play it. No point in trying to get nerfed the thing that counters your own broken setup. You should all know after all these years, that those nerfs have just made things even more crazy. Stop for a moment and thing about this and the past and where we are now. You should come to the same conclusion if you play all classes and specs and are able to remove bias from your own playstyle if it is limiting your view.

People have demanded nerfs for years and ZOS has done huge blanket nerfs and changes. Has the game turned into a balanced game? Seek the answer from your heart.

Also you cannot start balancing this game on some 1vs1 scenarios on pvp between classes/specs and Conan vs Legolas3000, because of the group dynamics, remember this is not just a solo game, also pve side of things and all the gear options we have available for everyone and with the new gear that comes in all the time. Mission Impossible. People have tried that for years.

So it is what it is. Just adapt. They will change classes and sets again at next big updates. New chapter will bring new "OP" stuff. It will happen, accepting that fact will make your gaming experience a lot better. Just use your imagination to make crazy builds yourself too. Atleast we got a LOT of crazy combinations now possible.

1v1 scenarios? Read the post before posting or at least understand it. Feel like you are just ranting and not actually responding. There are countless of MMO's where tanks are just that, tanks. It's not as complicated as you are exaggerating it to be. Lets not make it seem like balance is rocket science.

I can suggest a thing or two, stop making sets like " if you block x amount of times you gain x amount of attack damage ". This is a cancerous set for obvious reasons. Or " every time you block, you heal, gain stamina, gain, magicka, reflect damage for X amount ". This is not healthy. Make it more skill oriented, blocking is a effortless mechanic that tanks are already doing to begin with but now they are gaining damage boosts for it? This is a problem. There are plenty of suggestions here, i haven't played long enough to figure out which sets are breaking the game but im sure many players here are more knowledgable(including the game developers) in that compartment and can help figure out how to come to a solid solution. Honestly, i can do it if i had the time and a list of all the sets and if i can the developers can too, they have the blueprint.

Sets so far seem like the biggest contributor to this cancerous meta. It's not even a meta, calling it a meta is under acknowledge the severity of the issue. Tanks should not be vsing 10-15 people and still taking a ton of kills. Like i said in this post, a few days ago, someone in my faction was fighting at least 8 people, he wouldn't die and he was taking them down 1 by 1. During last event, some guy was tanking the entire lobby including myself and he was killing people by the masses. We aren't speaking of 1v1, we are speaking of 1V X. This happens in BG'S too. people's(tanks) health not moving but they are still damaging. That isn't healthy for PvP. You mentioned "but how will they tank in PvE. Like they always have, except their sets wont have damage boosts. Their sets should be restricted to HP, and DEF stats, not both DEF and OFFENSIVE stats cause or else you have what we have now.

Indigogo

Harbinger necro tank ftw.
I don't hit people, they kill themselves. Not my fault they don't stop 😇

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

They may not be tanks, on my dk(magDps) i sometimes run in no-cp in full heavy armour set up with no shields, and still have 62% crit and 3k spell damage, yes i do you wings, but there is sets out there that allow you as a dps to do what a tank does, the probs is heavy armour has no real negative effect on skill damage out, personal i think if you go heavy armour or put a restro staff on, it should have a negative effect and skill damage, my force pulse can crit in heavy armour for 8k and motlen whip still hits for 5k pre hit, zos needs to take in to consideration the skills with armour or weapon choices