PCNA AD guilds - do they exist?

lozq

Hey all,

I've been getting a little bit addicted to PVP recently and spending most of my game time in Cyro. I'm a bit of a potato still, but improving.

I haven't tried playing as EP or DC as I'm quite attached to my AD main, so this might be common to everyone...but where are the organised groups in PCNA AD? Occasionally there's a pug (sometimes even two) recruiting in zone, but most of the time I see people vainly typing LFG over and over with no response. Zone chat between core players (where core = I see their names pretty much every time I play) often touches on the fact there's no guilds and generally no grouping among AD. And the same zone chat suggests that DC and EP are way more organised and have big guilds running the show.

I got invited to one random PVP guild the other day, which turned out to be a japanese streaming concern that posted massive videos of battles to youtube overlaid with intense music and wonky english subtitles. Which had the potential to be hilarious, except no-one was ever online.

So....what's the go? Where's the AD guilds? Do they exist? Should I just start recruiting my own pug from zone and winging it, or will that **** people off?

Any and all advice welcome

idk

First off you may want to try the in-game guild search though I have never used it I expect there is a filter for PvP.

Second, you may want to try the guild recruitment subforum. Threads go both ways in that forum as players can create a thread looking for a specific type of guild on the server they are looking for. Below I have linked the PC NA Guild recruitment subforum.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/en-pc-mac-na

Good luck.

BRogueNZ

Mostly pugs, there's a few, dedicated closed guilds play for very short periods of time. On grayhost anyway.

Crash427

There are about half a dozen that play primetime. Some take new members, but some don't. What times do you usually play?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

There are quite a number on NoCP and CP Grey Host.

Grey Host:
Fantasia, QB, VE, Telel's group (sorry dont remember the name), Ayren's Army.

NoCP,
@Kartalin would know more.

Kartalin

For Ravenwatch we have:
Imperium of the Eagle, SWEAT, Lemon Party, Aetherian Archive (AA -- think that's what it means), Tertiary Meat.

We also have some smaller or newer groups, PVP Pals, McDonalds, Loreseekers, Legit Purple Hunters.

Since AD just won a campaign for the first time in a long time, we've had a few more zone groups running pugs and organizing a little more than usual. A few of the groups above take zone pick ups, some don't. Some of the closed groups run more organized. Little bit of everything really.

Just a heads up though, the better organized pvp groups tend to not recruit stamblades. Tertiary Meat did let me in as a stamblade over 5 years ago against their better judgment, but I've branched out quite a bit since then lol.

Telel

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

There are quite a number on NoCP and CP Grey Host.

Grey Host:
Fantasia, QB, VE, Telel's group (sorry dont remember the name), Ayren's Army.

NoCP,
@Kartalin would know more.

COH. AKA Children of Hircine/Hirne .

Worth noting that khajiit posts recruiting notices whenever they have a pack going. So anyone who was in Cyrodiil during that time could get a group. Provided they actually wanted one.

We're even fine with new folks who need to learn the basics.

xshatox

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

There are quite a number on NoCP and CP Grey Host.

Grey Host:
Fantasia, QB, VE, Telel's group (sorry dont remember the name), Ayren's Army.

NoCP,
@Kartalin would know more.

I will add more.
Dominion Imperial Guard
Dominant Dominion aka dom dom
Greyhost
These have routine raid schedule. They usually run with their own guild member.

lozq

Thanks for the many replies- so there's definitely a fair number of groups out there - they just don't necessarily focus on recruiting a massive zerg ball whenever they're active.

Kartalin wrote: »

For Ravenwatch we have:
Just a heads up though, the better organized pvp groups tend to not recruit stamblades. Tertiary Meat did let me in as a stamblade over 5 years ago against their better judgment, but I've branched out quite a bit since then lol.

Why is that? Lack of group utility, or too many stamblades just like playing the cloak-until-I-can-gank game? Or something else?

Crash427 wrote: »

There are about half a dozen that play primetime. Some take new members, but some don't. What times do you usually play?

I'm in Eastern Australia, my play time is usually 7pm ~ 12am AEST. So definitely not US prime time.

Kartalin

lozq wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

Just a heads up though, the better organized pvp groups tend to not recruit stamblades. Tertiary Meat did let me in as a stamblade over 5 years ago against their better judgment, but I've branched out quite a bit since then lol.

Why is that? Lack of group utility, or too many stamblades just like playing the cloak-until-I-can-gank game? Or something else?

It’s the lack of group utility as you say. Most organized groups are AOE focused and as a class spec stamblades don’t really bring anything unique to the table. Even magblade use is seeing a decline, but they can still make decent bombers or can play a useful support role.

silky_soft

I know most poeple in our time zone have left till they fix the lag. EP is always full for some pvd or you could head to imp city.

Recremen

lozq wrote: »

Why is that? Lack of group utility, or too many stamblades just like playing the cloak-until-I-can-gank game? Or something else?

Yeah, stamblade doesn't even have a good source of delayed AoE damage like prox det or warden's shalk. In fact, it's really hard to justify any non-warden non-sorc stam class. What does stam DK bring to the table that magicka DK doesn't do better and also with access to hard-hitting proxy? What does Templar bring except faster rez time? Stam sorc at least has negate and better mobility to help place it, but beyond that it's mostly just stamden. Large group environments are stamina-unfriendly.

The exception, of course, is if you're running a mostly-disorganized group. In this case it doesn't matter as much for stuff like delayed damage because your group won't be there to deliver it together, so you can specialize more as highly-mobile harriers than big heavyweight contenders. This is especially good for things like setting up anti-personnel siege, which with siege being overpowered (especially during these tests) can be incredibly clutch both for keep defense and offense if you're good about it.

Kartalin

There are some unique builds where it's kind of a hybrid. I know there's one guy in non cp with Clever alchemist, Vicious Death, and Balorgh on a stam sorc. Pretty big destro bombs with whirling blades finisher. Squishy af though.

But yeah, @Recremen nailed it, as far as stamina roles in organized groups go. We also run a a stamsorc who spams rapids for us and also provides a negate and streaks as well as bombard. But for like our (Tertiary Meat) ~12 person group we'll run 1 stamden, 1 stamsorc, and the rest are magicka. But there's other groups we fight that are almost entirely stamina (mainly stamden and stamcro). There's no right or wrong way to do it but ultimately certain classes tend to shine more in these situations. If you're going to fight zergs you need big AOE burst, and some classes have it and some don't.

Recremen

Kartalin wrote: »

There are some unique builds where it's kind of a hybrid. I know there's one guy in non cp with Clever alchemist, Vicious Death, and Balorgh on a stam sorc. Pretty big destro bombs with whirling blades finisher. Squishy af though.

But yeah, @Recremen nailed it, as far as stamina roles in organized groups go. We also run a a stamsorc who spams rapids for us and also provides a negate and streaks as well as bombard. But for like our (Tertiary Meat) ~12 person group we'll run 1 stamden, 1 stamsorc, and the rest are magicka. But there's other groups we fight that are almost entirely stamina (mainly stamden and stamcro). There's no right or wrong way to do it but ultimately certain classes tend to shine more in these situations. If you're going to fight zergs you need big AOE burst, and some classes have it and some don't.

I wish blastbones actually worked/just worked like a normal delayed-damage AoE so that stamcro could contribute as much in practice as the label on the box says. It was supposed to be Second Shalk!!

xshatox

An organized group was looking for magnecro? Are they good for organized group? Is it for the revive ulti? I was invited to join when I am on a magnecro.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Class and raid comps depend on the group size. Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run. As the group gets smaller you have less space for filler classes. Mag necro is good because it brings a lot for the group and can play multiple roles (heal/support/dd).

Essentially the main factor is how good the player is. A good player that's willing to play for the group will make any class work well.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Class and raid comps depend on the group size. Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run. As the group gets smaller you have less space for filler classes. Mag necro is good because it brings a lot for the group and can play multiple roles (heal/support/dd).

Essentially the main factor is how good the player is. A good player that's willing to play for the group will make any class work well.

To the contrary. Because of the hard caps and lack of smart-target for essential support and heal abilities, to properly cover a 20+ group with heals/purge/rapids/buffs/etc requires a much larger support core than a smaller group does. More people has its advantages to be certain, but it also adds more bodies to suck up support skills that may desperately be needed by someone else. More bodies for the sake of more bodies just adds VD procs, gets you hit harder by prox dets and adds more difficulty to buff/heal distribution.

xshatox wrote: »

An organized group was looking for magnecro? Are they good for organized group? Is it for the revive ulti? I was invited to join when I am on a magnecro.

Mag-necro is currently an excellent group class. It can be played as support or DPS, and gives great value with two ults and its synergies.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Class and raid comps depend on the group size. Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run. As the group gets smaller you have less space for filler classes. Mag necro is good because it brings a lot for the group and can play multiple roles (heal/support/dd).

Essentially the main factor is how good the player is. A good player that's willing to play for the group will make any class work well.

To the contrary. Because of the hard caps and lack of smart-target for essential support and heal abilities, to properly cover a 20+ group with heals/purge/rapids/buffs/etc requires a much larger support core than a smaller group does. More people has its advantages to be certain, but it also adds more bodies to suck up support skills that may desperately be needed by someone else. More bodies for the sake of more bodies just adds VD procs, gets you hit harder by prox dets and adds more difficulty to buff/heal distribution.

This is incorrect. Once you have a decent 12m in your group of 24 the rest are all essentially fillers. Sure there's gnna be some which are more useful than others but for the most part it makes no difference as the enemies you are facing will be outnumbered the majority of the time and so will be simply taking more dmg then they deliver back to your group.

Ofc if you meet a good 12m and fight them 24vs 12 you might find that the fillers proc vd / make the 12s proxy hit harder but the damage that you put out whilst twice outnumbering the enemy is more than this increase unless you play really poorly in which case the point is moot anyway.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Class and raid comps depend on the group size. Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run. As the group gets smaller you have less space for filler classes. Mag necro is good because it brings a lot for the group and can play multiple roles (heal/support/dd).

Essentially the main factor is how good the player is. A good player that's willing to play for the group will make any class work well.

To the contrary. Because of the hard caps and lack of smart-target for essential support and heal abilities, to properly cover a 20+ group with heals/purge/rapids/buffs/etc requires a much larger support core than a smaller group does. More people has its advantages to be certain, but it also adds more bodies to suck up support skills that may desperately be needed by someone else. More bodies for the sake of more bodies just adds VD procs, gets you hit harder by prox dets and adds more difficulty to buff/heal distribution.

This is incorrect. Once you have a decent 12m in your group of 24 the rest are all essentially fillers. Sure there's gnna be some which are more useful than others but for the most part it makes no difference as the enemies you are facing will be outnumbered the majority of the time and so will be simply taking more dmg then they deliver back to your group.

Ofc if you meet a good 12m and fight them 24vs 12 you might find that the fillers proc vd / make the 12s proxy hit harder but the damage that you put out whilst twice outnumbering the enemy is more than this increase unless you play really poorly in which case the point is moot anyway.

Game mechanics disagree, two most obvious culprits being purge and rapids. These are essential yet hard-capped and do not smart target. The more people you have, the more chance your ability cast will not hit who it's intended. Probably not a bad thing, there should be downsides to bringing in more people (as compared to old days where I could solo-speed a 24-man raid with zero difficulty). The difference is almost night and day when we drop from our 20 man groups to later night 10-12 man groups. We're faster and tankier because purge is actually hitting the targets it needs to hit, we're getting minor exp on rapids to everyone, etc.

Which, again, I'm not against. Frustrating as it is sometimes, it was a necessary change and an empowering one for smaller groups. But I flatly disagree that anything over 12 is filler. Ratios have to be kept or you don't get proper value. A group of 16 with 4 healers and support, for example, is in my opinion stronger than a group of 24 with 4 healers and support. The larger group simply won't be able to properly buff and support its size.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Class and raid comps depend on the group size. Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run. As the group gets smaller you have less space for filler classes. Mag necro is good because it brings a lot for the group and can play multiple roles (heal/support/dd).

Essentially the main factor is how good the player is. A good player that's willing to play for the group will make any class work well.

To the contrary. Because of the hard caps and lack of smart-target for essential support and heal abilities, to properly cover a 20+ group with heals/purge/rapids/buffs/etc requires a much larger support core than a smaller group does. More people has its advantages to be certain, but it also adds more bodies to suck up support skills that may desperately be needed by someone else. More bodies for the sake of more bodies just adds VD procs, gets you hit harder by prox dets and adds more difficulty to buff/heal distribution.

This is incorrect. Once you have a decent 12m in your group of 24 the rest are all essentially fillers. Sure there's gnna be some which are more useful than others but for the most part it makes no difference as the enemies you are facing will be outnumbered the majority of the time and so will be simply taking more dmg then they deliver back to your group.

Ofc if you meet a good 12m and fight them 24vs 12 you might find that the fillers proc vd / make the 12s proxy hit harder but the damage that you put out whilst twice outnumbering the enemy is more than this increase unless you play really poorly in which case the point is moot anyway.

Game mechanics disagree, two most obvious culprits being purge and rapids. These are essential yet hard-capped and do not smart target. The more people you have, the more chance your ability cast will not hit who it's intended. Probably not a bad thing, there should be downsides to bringing in more people (as compared to old days where I could solo-speed a 24-man raid with zero difficulty). The difference is almost night and day when we drop from our 20 man groups to later night 10-12 man groups. We're faster and tankier because purge is actually hitting the targets it needs to hit, we're getting minor exp on rapids to everyone, etc.

Which, again, I'm not against. Frustrating as it is sometimes, it was a necessary change and an empowering one for smaller groups. But I flatly disagree that anything over 12 is filler. Ratios have to be kept or you don't get proper value. A group of 16 with 4 healers and support, for example, is in my opinion stronger than a group of 24 with 4 healers and support. The larger group simply won't be able to properly buff and support its size.

You are assuming that the core of 12 would be an individual 12m group comp and not a comp suited for a 24m in my argument. For sure there needs to be some ratio but that can fully be covered within the 12m and thus allow for any filler roles to join. If a healer join one of your 12m healers swaps to dmg etc.. I'm sure if you post your group logs you will find that 12 of your group are outperforming the remaining 12 in terms of damage or healing respectively. The benefit that comes from simply having more dds/siegers/people to run for camps or res etc far outweighs the negative regardless of roles. This is especially true when considering the current pvp environment and pop caps.

For sure there are some disadvantages when facing a skilled smaller group because the fillers will generally die faster leaving you shorthanded in some fights but that isn't the majority of fights with the current population and groups which are playing.

Let's not forget the original discussion above was regarding classes. Thus if you lack a purge any magicka class could fill that role in a 24m in my example. But in a 12m you couldn't due to constraint of classes additional benefits.

Satiar

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Class and raid comps depend on the group size. Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run. As the group gets smaller you have less space for filler classes. Mag necro is good because it brings a lot for the group and can play multiple roles (heal/support/dd).

Essentially the main factor is how good the player is. A good player that's willing to play for the group will make any class work well.

To the contrary. Because of the hard caps and lack of smart-target for essential support and heal abilities, to properly cover a 20+ group with heals/purge/rapids/buffs/etc requires a much larger support core than a smaller group does. More people has its advantages to be certain, but it also adds more bodies to suck up support skills that may desperately be needed by someone else. More bodies for the sake of more bodies just adds VD procs, gets you hit harder by prox dets and adds more difficulty to buff/heal distribution.

This is incorrect. Once you have a decent 12m in your group of 24 the rest are all essentially fillers. Sure there's gnna be some which are more useful than others but for the most part it makes no difference as the enemies you are facing will be outnumbered the majority of the time and so will be simply taking more dmg then they deliver back to your group.

Ofc if you meet a good 12m and fight them 24vs 12 you might find that the fillers proc vd / make the 12s proxy hit harder but the damage that you put out whilst twice outnumbering the enemy is more than this increase unless you play really poorly in which case the point is moot anyway.

Game mechanics disagree, two most obvious culprits being purge and rapids. These are essential yet hard-capped and do not smart target. The more people you have, the more chance your ability cast will not hit who it's intended. Probably not a bad thing, there should be downsides to bringing in more people (as compared to old days where I could solo-speed a 24-man raid with zero difficulty). The difference is almost night and day when we drop from our 20 man groups to later night 10-12 man groups. We're faster and tankier because purge is actually hitting the targets it needs to hit, we're getting minor exp on rapids to everyone, etc.

Which, again, I'm not against. Frustrating as it is sometimes, it was a necessary change and an empowering one for smaller groups. But I flatly disagree that anything over 12 is filler. Ratios have to be kept or you don't get proper value. A group of 16 with 4 healers and support, for example, is in my opinion stronger than a group of 24 with 4 healers and support. The larger group simply won't be able to properly buff and support its size.

You are assuming that the core of 12 would be an individual 12m group comp and not a comp suited for a 24m in my argument. For sure there needs to be some ratio but that can fully be covered within the 12m and thus allow for any filler roles to join. If a healer join one of your 12m healers swaps to dmg etc.. I'm sure if you post your group logs you will find that 12 of your group are outperforming the remaining 12 in terms of damage or healing respectively. The benefit that comes from simply having more dds/siegers/people to run for camps or res etc far outweighs the negative regardless of roles. This is especially true when considering the current pvp environment and pop caps.

For sure there are some disadvantages when facing a skilled smaller group because the fillers will generally die faster leaving you shorthanded in some fights but that isn't the majority of fights with the current population and groups which are playing.

I am engaging primarily with "Basically for 24m any class is fine because at that size it makes no difference what you run." and later "Once you have a decent 12m in your group of 24 the rest are all essentially fillers".

To the first, it obviously makes a difference what you run because adding more people is more bodies to suck up heals/purges/etc. Simply adding a player can be a net negative if the ratios of the group are off. There is absolutely a point where, if the roles are unbalanced, you can become a slow, lumbering target that cannot heal or sustain or maneuver and all the bodies in the world don't change that. Of course, at a certain point it DOES swing back to bodies, but I'd say it's a much higher number (like 40-50+) where the sheer weight overwhelms all other concerns. And even then, a self-sustaining and maneuverable unit can overcome that.

To the second, I don't really understand what you're getting at. A group of 24 with 12 fillers is an awful waste of space. Why not 24 core and no fill? Everyone on a proper, contributing spec that works towards a larger whole? I see no reason why not. The thrust, naturally, is to balance between specialization and general buffs. In a larger group you need more ppl running certain skills/sets to ensure coverage, but due to the fact you have more people you also want to work in specialized roles that serve a unique purpose (working in sets you might leave out in a smaller format). The struggle is always ensuring the right ratio, and ensuring that while the specialization benefits the group, that the group does not rely on it to the point where its loss is overly disruptive, etc.

I don't think we're far apart here. I just don't see why 12 is the magical number where everything over that is filler. It's just more of the same, expanding DPS and expanding support to cover for them, with the occasional specialist mixed in.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

You are still making the point about role imbalance which wasn't part of the original point I made. See last paragraph of my previous post.
Also the 12m is based on raiding experience it's a size where every valuable role is fulfilled. And when extrapolating above this size it can be adjusted to still fill all roles.

lozq

Thanks for all the input everyone - just so there's a nice tidy 'happily ever after' for future searchers, I can happily say that YES there assuredly are quite a few different groups and guilds about in the AD. The annoying thing is that most of these are active at very awkward times if you're in or about Oceanic/SE Asian time zones. My habit of staying up until 5am has finally proved useful!

So it seems that the key is persistence and being willing to play at odd hours, because NA prime time is where it's at if you want to find big groups. Which to be honest isn't really surprising, but is a little inconvenient.

Thanks again, and I look forward chasing all of you around a lumbermill tower at some point

Parasaurolophus

The situation is similar at EU. I have been playing Cyrodiil since the beginning of the tests and in all the time I have never seen a single organized AD group. No ballgroups. There are not even bombers. Only red and blue raids. And AD cannot oppose them with anything.