How ZOS could make tanking fun?

Icaruzs

I began as a healer in ESO, and it's kinda fun (aside from the not being needed in 80% of content aside from trials and maybe arenas : p)

Switched to dps, kill stuff is cool

Now i made a tank, and is rly not that great being one.... i mean you hold the boss, debuff the boss, do everything you can to stay alive and others alive, do the mechanics, pull ads and stack them, and your dd's can't even ressurect the healer down or step out of red circles... i mean is to much trouble for litle fun.

No wonder why the rate on tanks are like 1 for every 10 dps, this could be because pug dd's are bad too, but i feel like zos could improve what's to be a tank.

I can't think in good away they could do that, aside maybe giving the tank aways to do damage? there are dmg tank build out there, but are they rly funcional in hard stuff? what do you guys think, how zos could improve tanking? and increase the tank user? (that would benefit a lot the queue for pug dd's, not having to wait 20 min for a dungeon too)

Major_Lag

Tanking in ESO is mostly fine as it is.
Based on the OP, I presume this is mostly (primarily?) about random groups.

If there's any way to "improve tanking in randoms, the best approach would be to do something about how bad the average random group is.
Some training/certification quests for each of the roles would go a long way to make sure the players are at least minimally prepared to play their chosen role.

It also does not help how huge the rift between the best and worst (or even between best and average) DPS is. That is certainly one area that could significantly benefit from ZOS' much touted drive towards "raising the floor".

actosh

If they want it to be moe fun, give us more things to do (debuffs/buffs to apply).

If u r asking how to encourage tanks for the dungeon finder then the solution is simple.

LEARN THE DPS HOW TO DEAL DMG! Not those "i spam only la cause this is my style" dudes.

VaranisArano

Tanking for a good group who can really take advantage of of my battlefield control and group support is amazing fun!

Tanking for a bad group who doesn't follow mechanics and has low DPS sucks.

And tanking for PUGs has an awful lot of "we don't need no tank, moar DPS!" until the rest of the group dies on a failed mechanic and I'm left to rez people...turns out you did need a tank after all.

Joxer61

tell dps to stop acting like they arent squishy and that they do need a tank!
then the role will be fun again.
NOT fun when dps runs ahead screaming follow me and then wonders why they died...... (actually, when that happens it is kinda fun, so nvm!)

Major_Lag

VaranisArano wrote: »

And tanking for PUGs has an awful lot of "we don't need no tank, moar DPS!" until the rest of the group dies on a failed mechanic and I'm left to rez people...turns out you did need a tank after all.

Best groups are those that insist the tank should be doing more DPS
...and then there are groups where the tank is doing the majority of group DPS - that's as good a warning sign as a flashing red light at the end of a dead-end tunnel.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Its easy, just introduce a multiple spec mechanic. I love tanking PvE content, but if Im specced as a tank I cant enjoy questing and PvPing, so I kinda get excluded from 2/3 of the content.

YandereGirlfriend

More ways to do the standard tank functions (e.g. more ways to apply taunt, more ways to apply Breach/Fracture, more ways to apply Maim, etc.). I recently rolled a NightBlade tank for the express purpose of using the Tormentor set and Lotus Fan for AoE taunting and it is much more fun to play than my main Sorcerer (or Warden) tank that relies on Puncture.

Using S&B (and its boring skills) is fine for your first tank but it really loses its luster if you make more than one.

Drdeath20

My tank is always busy. Apply buffs and debuffs, positioning, maintaining aggro, grouping, not dying, blocking (inspite of block mechanic still being broken) etc...

The only change that would feel kinda fun is i would like to feel some kind of weight on my tank. Like if i hold block i can walk into and push lesser enemies around. Sort of bully adds into a corner or into fire or off a ledge etc...it aint much, but its the little things.

craybest

More than how to make it more fun, we should ask how to make more people play a tank. Fun is only one of the variables

Astrid

You can make tanking fun, you don’t have to be a bog standard Nord Dragonknight to be an effective tank.
I’m by no means a tank main, but I have an Orc Nightblade tank that I run dungeons with on occasion and I gotta say it’s quite a proactive role in comparison to the others. Very damage orientated too if you’re comfortable running medium and know your way around the content.

VaranisArano

craybest wrote: »

More than how to make it more fun, we should ask how to make more people play a tank. Fun is only one of the variables

That's a hard one. There's a lot of reasons people don't play tank. The following aren't exhaustive:

They may not want the perceived pressure. The tank is responsible for starting most fights, following most boss mechanics, and controlling the fight. When you screw up, it's obvious. (Its also obvious if you are a fake tank.)

They may not want to be at the mercy of their group. A tank can only do so much to help a bad group. Worse, low DPS means the tank has to do their job even longer, which gets pretty rough in harder dungeons.

They may not like ESO's style of tanking. ESO tanks don't taunt everything because dungeons are designed to force players to focus on priority targets.

They may not like being a "support" player. Its not the big, flashy numbers of a Damage Dealer. Tanking is more about utility - you notice when someone isn't doing it right, but it's not exactly showy, most of the time. Add in that many tanks use sets geared towards group support, and players who want to shine may not want to tank.

Kardrik

I don't tank in this game because I don't like the lack of control tanks have over mobs.
No AOE taunt, no way to grab threat on mobs because your damage is trash and you have no threat multiplier...

Most of the fun tanking in other games is mob control, ESO has none of that.

Tanks in this game just survive, buff-debuff, and hold one or two targets.

Give me a way to control mobs as a tank and you got me tanking, in the meantime I'm only going to really tank when forced to.

YandereGirlfriend

@Kardrik You CAN actually AoE taunt if you use the Tormentor set from Banished Cells and Lotus Fan from Nightblade, Werewolf Pounce (WW tank!), Sorcerer Streak (probably not ideal but it will work) or even Dragonknight Leap. Nightblade is the most viable, of course, and it makes for a fun alternative to the standard S&B skills.

craybest wrote: »

More than how to make it more fun, we should ask how to make more people play a tank. Fun is only one of the variables

If you make it more fun then more people will become tanks. It's axiomatic.

Icaruzs

I feel like doing damage is important too, even if it's minimum. Adding sets to help with that would make people feel better, like everytime you hold block you applies an aura that damages and buffs, with a minor buff or a debuff to the enemy. Because everyone like to hit stuff.

Xynode has a necro tank build that not only do his job of being a tank, but he is using colossus every 30 seconds! His build is made around ult generation for the colossus and for the AOE ressurection.

Being a meatshield is boring! Damage is the away to go for increasing the tank popularity in 4 man content and solo content. A tank doing 15k damage to a boss is more than enough. Adding more health scaling habilities that deals dmg like the warden aoe root, would help too. (I rly feel good using this skill and seeing that the numbers rly matter in the total dps)

Also AOE taunt is rly necessary, with the rework that the ice stuff will have, ZOS could leave single target taunts to weapons skill tree and the undaunted skill being an aoe taunt, or add an aoe taunt option in the sword and shield, like the shield bash skill.

idk

Major_Lag wrote: »

Tanking in ESO is mostly fine as it is.
Based on the OP, I presume this is mostly (primarily?) about random groups.

If there's any way to "improve tanking in randoms, the best approach would be to do something about how bad the average random group is.
Some training/certification quests for each of the roles would go a long way to make sure the players are at least minimally prepared to play their chosen role.

It also does not help how huge the rift between the best and worst (or even between best and average) DPS is. That is certainly one area that could significantly benefit from ZOS' much touted drive towards "raising the floor".

I agree that the issue is more who OP runs with and running with random GF groups can be a drag. It is also likely due to the content they run. The more challenging the content the more active the tank needs to be. Tanking a real fight is more than just standing there taunting and blocking.

Icaruzs

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Tanking in ESO is mostly fine as it is.
Based on the OP, I presume this is mostly (primarily?) about random groups.

If there's any way to "improve tanking in randoms, the best approach would be to do something about how bad the average random group is.
Some training/certification quests for each of the roles would go a long way to make sure the players are at least minimally prepared to play their chosen role.

It also does not help how huge the rift between the best and worst (or even between best and average) DPS is. That is certainly one area that could significantly benefit from ZOS' much touted drive towards "raising the floor".

I agree that the issue is more who OP runs with and running with random GF groups can be a drag. It is also likely due to the content they run. The more challenging the content the more active the tank needs to be. Tanking a real fight is more than just standing there taunting and blocking.

I didnt express myself very well but the intentions i had to do this post were to think in better aways to increase the tank population that is rly low. That's not something every MMO has, that's a game design issue.

idk

Icaruzs wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Tanking in ESO is mostly fine as it is.
Based on the OP, I presume this is mostly (primarily?) about random groups.

If there's any way to "improve tanking in randoms, the best approach would be to do something about how bad the average random group is.
Some training/certification quests for each of the roles would go a long way to make sure the players are at least minimally prepared to play their chosen role.

It also does not help how huge the rift between the best and worst (or even between best and average) DPS is. That is certainly one area that could significantly benefit from ZOS' much touted drive towards "raising the floor".

I agree that the issue is more who OP runs with and running with random GF groups can be a drag. It is also likely due to the content they run. The more challenging the content the more active the tank needs to be. Tanking a real fight is more than just standing there taunting and blocking.

I didnt express myself very well but my intention to do this post, is to think in better away to increase the tank population that is rly low. That's not something every MMO has, that's a game design issue.

The tank population is not low. They avoid GF because they want a decent run. I speak as a tank that stopped trying to help the GF because of getting groups that all to often lacked the DPS to get past bosses or died time and time again to the very same telegraphs indicating a high damage attack is about to happen where they are standing.

This is the sentiment of pretty much most decent tanks and most decent DPS as well, that it is easier, faster, and smoother to run with guildmates and friends than deal with the random groups.

Sahidom

Tanks == Block bot
Tanks == Vigilant Interrupt bot
Tanks == Forced buff/debuff bot
Tanks == Dmage sponges to ovrly squishy glass cannons.
Tanks == No damage potential

Game mechanics alone may challenge veteran tanks, however, once learned than the cerebral challenge becomes dull and demoted into one of the above player controlled bots. It was a bad decision to split classes into trinity roles, away from their original designs.

Current state of the game: Gear and non-class skills defines the tank role, any class can don sturdy heavy armor, attributes into health, slot s/b or undaunted taunt and be the "tank."

Its the trial group composition and gear meta builds that do more harm than good for the tank gameplay fun. The only engagement tanks play against are boss game mechanics, to the extent you simply soak or avoid/skip some and hold the boss aggro for the fragile DPS character builds.

Most games suffering from power creep, as severe as ESO, turns overpowering damage into the best defensive skill of the game: one-two shot mobs, deal out so much damage the NPC attack matrix fails to execute attacks due to the rapid kill rate in the game. This offense, is the best defense, the main reason why tanks are not often needed and why its a no damage potential tank is lackluster in casual. Read all the PVP posts that demand fast decisive dynamic combat than look at PVP tank builds outside boss fights. Whats the fun there? Tanks are shelfed characters for one specific purpose that excludes regular gameplay besides gaining the meta build skill choices.

The horrible adversary to improving attrition in the current dynamic combat climate of the game is the PVP side; you can't improve the PVE without really impacting the PVP side; hence, one reason why they should have never tampered with the classes to satisfy the trinity roles in one class. Moving into game mechanics, as a solution, would also be poor choice too. The original decision on how they implanted classes on launch choked their future design choices. Maybe that will change.

Majkiy

I played tank for 2 years now and ever since I started it was fun. To make it fun you got to be good at tanking and go try harder content like DLC vet dungeons. Vanilla ones are just so easy they are not any fun. Not all DLC dungeons are hard but some of them are decent and fun to play. Now just get a proper group and go have fun.

For me it's fun when 3 people die and they lose hope and then I suddenly revive 2 people while being attacked by boss and number of adds and getting all the "gg wp" and "you are a god". If you suck as a tank you won't have any fun.

VaxtinTheWolf

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

@Kardrik You CAN actually AoE taunt if you use the Tormentor set from Banished Cells and Lotus Fan from Nightblade, Werewolf Pounce (WW tank!), Sorcerer Streak (probably not ideal but it will work) or even Dragonknight Leap. Nightblade is the most viable, of course, and it makes for a fun alternative to the standard S&B skills.

I'm doubtful about Streak and Lotus Fan certainly did not work the last time I tested it on PTS. Lotus fan is a tingle target ability first, THEN it bleeds enemies nearby with magic damage. I would have definitely wanted to try this on my NB tank years ago but that requires the first strike of Lotus Fan to be AOE.

Major_Lag

Also: an AoE taunt is not needed, as all PvE content in ESO was designed around single target taunt abilities in mind.
Tanks are not expected, nor even supposed to, taunt every single trash mob in the entire bloody room.

For trash pulls, if the group is otherwise decent they will wait for the tank to pull the trash with AoE damage (lightning staff works wonders for this) - for a few seconds the mobs will stay focused on the tank even though they are not formally taunted, which is more than enough time to CC them in a nice pile around the tank so that they burn in the AoEs.

Of course if your group is struggling to kill even the trash mobs in a timely basis, that alone speaks volumes about the ability level of the group's damage dealers (and, to a lesser extent, the healer's as well).
Same if your group constantly pulls the trash early, before you (as the tank) can properly set up the fight - as that is a complete failure on the teamwork level.