Stam combat and a simple "why?" (PVE)

Joxer61

Ok, when it comes to Stam characters/builds why is it that one class can really outshine another...or appear that way on paper per say?
I mean each one uses pretty much the same weapon skills, be it DW or 2H, and then a mix of Class skills thrown in. So that in mind you would think that they should all be pretty much the same or close in terms of dps yet they arent. Stamcros seem to shine and Stamplars are just plain silly, all due to one skill it seems, from each. Maj Vuln for the Cro and of course jabby mcjabness from Templar.
Nb's are also showing to be stronger and can that be equated to the changing of some passives? Which puts Warden and Dk's down on the bottom, or so it would seem. It comes down to how you build it, doesnt it?
So why? Why are Dk's frowned upon and Warden's bearly (lol) holding their own?
I only ask this because I have recently leveled 2 stam toons, a NB and a DK, and while doing so found myself wondering why one "felt" stronger than the other, yet I was using pretty much the same skills? For sure on the back bar, that is more or less cookie cutter... barrage, PI and then a class skill maybe. So why cant my DK be just as strong as my NB? Shouldn't it just come down to playstyle...i.e. dots vs more ST?
Are passives really the bread and butter of a build? And of course how you make it. Any class/build can be made to shine if done right, but again, those passives seem to be the key. Templars have great bonuses and lets not forget the Sorcs, they also have some juicy melee passives!
Whats the point of this post? Nothing really...just food for thought and an insight to combat that maybe some newer players arent aware of. ESO is more than just slapping a weapon on a Character and pressing GO! If it wasnt then yea, all the Stam (and Mag) builds would be pretty much just a different effect for each...but who wants to play that?
Now time to go flip a coin and actually pick.....NB or DK...lol!!!


(Oh and dont even get me started as to why one Class is chosen over another for trials, that crap does my head in!)

VaranisArano

Are you talking PVE or PVP? Because Stamwardens are quite strong in PVP.

Joxer61

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are you talking PVE or PVP? Because Stamwardens are quite strong in PVP.

ah silly me....always PVE...duh.

Joxer61

half a novel....I went Mag.....lol.

BisDasBlutGefriert

Interesting to think about. I’m not a numbers pusher when it comes to builds, so I can’t say exactly why that is. But I main dk for the fun factor in it. Dw both bars. Have not got around to trying NB or CRO yet.....yet.😁

Onefrkncrzypope

Stamden was never bis or a top contender and that continues since morrowind dropped. The sdk has been subject to being locked behind the opion it was best in pvp( i can argue that it just fit the meta best it wasn't the class) meaning buffing the damage was never going to happen. Then the bleed meta ripped rending, dot meta ripped everything else. There was never any compensation to the sdk and it fell down to the bottom with the stamden.

This is with stamplar getting 30k dps with one skill. Adding more skills to its rotation is a dps loss.

Stam balance is abysmal. Then you have mag that doesn't rely on a proc set and is performing better in every situation.

Dps is a crap shoot in this game.

VaranisArano

Joxer61 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Are you talking PVE or PVP? Because Stamwardens are quite strong in PVP.

ah silly me....always PVE...duh.

I'd argue that StamDKs (and MagDK DDs too) are hampered by the way DKs make excellent tanks. If ZOS buffs DK DPS too much, then DK tanks become "BIS, Why would you bring anything else ever?" very, very quickly.

Everest_Lionheart

I main a Stamden and it’s absolutely fun to play. I’ve done some vet content and even a few vet trials with it. It likely won’t ever be accepted into any endgame score pushing scenarios but don’t let the meta decide what kind of toons you can play. For the record mine hits as of a week ago 59K on the trial dummy and 38K on the 3 mil dummy. It’s not even wearing all BiS gear. Hundings, Briarheart and Selene’s. 2 Bloodthirsty rings. Everything gold except jewelry.

I recently made a stamblade that I’m still filling out equipment, skills and getting the rotation down. First parsing tests a few weeks ago were coming in at 54-56K in Hundings, Briarheart and Sellistrix (I will be swapping this to Velidreth when I have the transmute crystals.) 1 infused and 2 Bloodthirsty jewelry. Weapons and monster set gold, everything else purple. I’m still getting the rotation down but for sure from a raw power standpoint stamblade is stronger than Stamden. Part of that is my race choice as well. Khajiit warden vs Orc NB. The ceiling is way higher on the Orc.

Both my stam toons are DW, I hate the feel of 2H and I know I’m giving up some great passives by going DW but it comes down to how I like to play.
I
I also play magicka toons as well. My Magplar which I use the most for dungeons and trials come in at 64K. MS, Juli, Maw equipment. My mag DK wearing the same sets comes in at 67K. She’s my hardest hitting but also my most squishy. She probably has the biggest upside once I get more CP into resistances.

My bigger issue is the gap between Mag and Stam overall, and I understand in the past the gap was actually the other way. Mag I also find overall easier to play. With DK and Templar you can run a mostly static rotation and not give up too much DPS to their dynamic counterparts. Contrast that to stam and you are giving up a lot more DPS if you attempt to stick to a static rotation. I also find mag more forgiving is you miss a skill. Let your breach drop on warden or NB and your DPS falls off the map.

I’m still with you though. I would especially like to see warden get some buffs. Another 2-3 seconds on dots is all I think it needs. That gets another couple spamables in there and lines up better for ultimates especially if you miss a skill or LA in the rotation. Currently there is zero margin for error. Longer dots means you can slow down a bit for accuracy or push the envelope for more DPS. Real risk/reward.

Joxer61

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I recently made a stamblade that I’m still filling out equipment, skills and getting the rotation down. First parsing tests a few weeks ago were coming in at 54-56K in Hundings, Briarheart and Sellistrix (I will be swapping this to Velidreth when I have the transmute crystals.) 1 infused and 2 Bloodthirsty jewelry. Weapons and monster set gold, everything else purple. I’m still getting the rotation down but for sure from a raw power standpoint stamblade is stronger than Stamden. Part of that is my race choice as well. Khajiit warden vs Orc NB. The ceiling is way higher on the Orc.

. Real risk/reward.

But is it as fun to play as your Warden? And as you pointed out, pretty much the same if not a bit less than the Warden with gear and that and yet "feels" stronger.....why? Passives must really be that big of a factor....

Everest_Lionheart

Joxer61 wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I recently made a stamblade that I’m still filling out equipment, skills and getting the rotation down. First parsing tests a few weeks ago were coming in at 54-56K in Hundings, Briarheart and Sellistrix (I will be swapping this to Velidreth when I have the transmute crystals.) 1 infused and 2 Bloodthirsty jewelry. Weapons and monster set gold, everything else purple. I’m still getting the rotation down but for sure from a raw power standpoint stamblade is stronger than Stamden. Part of that is my race choice as well. Khajiit warden vs Orc NB. The ceiling is way higher on the Orc.

. Real risk/reward.

But is it as fun to play as your Warden? And as you pointed out, pretty much the same if not a bit less than the Warden with gear and that and yet "feels" stronger.....why? Passives must really be that big of a factor....

The jury is still out on that one but for sure after running though nDSA last night on my stamblade with a guild mate who was helping me learn the nuances of the class I now understand how the skills all work together to create that power. There’s more buffs to keep up but you are looking at buffs that last 60 seconds, 26 seconds, and 2x 20 seconds. The timing of the ultimate is crucial to damage as well. If you have all of your buffs up and you hit incap just before spectral arrow proc and execute you can hit crazy high numbers. It’s a killing machine. Fun in a different way.

Now if my warden was Orc instead of Khajiit it would hit harder because the Orc passives got a big boost last patch. The warden is my main so I use it for all the content plus crafting. It’s a well rounded character that also can deal damage fairly well. A bit more versatile because it can fight in mid and long range as opposed to right up in the enemies face.

I have a feeling once I get the hang of stamblade I will start bringing it more to group dungeons and trials but I will solo more dungeons with my warden.

Joxer61

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I recently made a stamblade that I’m still filling out equipment, skills and getting the rotation down. First parsing tests a few weeks ago were coming in at 54-56K in Hundings, Briarheart and Sellistrix (I will be swapping this to Velidreth when I have the transmute crystals.) 1 infused and 2 Bloodthirsty jewelry. Weapons and monster set gold, everything else purple. I’m still getting the rotation down but for sure from a raw power standpoint stamblade is stronger than Stamden. Part of that is my race choice as well. Khajiit warden vs Orc NB. The ceiling is way higher on the Orc.

. Real risk/reward.

But is it as fun to play as your Warden? And as you pointed out, pretty much the same if not a bit less than the Warden with gear and that and yet "feels" stronger.....why? Passives must really be that big of a factor....

The jury is still out on that one but for sure after running though nDSA last night on my stamblade with a guild mate who was helping me learn the nuances of the class I now understand how the skills all work together to create that power. There’s more buffs to keep up but you are looking at buffs that last 60 seconds, 26 seconds, and 2x 20 seconds. The timing of the ultimate is crucial to damage as well. If you have all of your buffs up and you hit incap just before spectral arrow proc and execute you can hit crazy high numbers. It’s a killing machine. Fun in a different way.

Now if my warden was Orc instead of Khajiit it would hit harder because the Orc passives got a big boost last patch. The warden is my main so I use it for all the content plus crafting. It’s a well rounded character that also can deal damage fairly well. A bit more versatile because it can fight in mid and long range as opposed to right up in the enemies face.

I have a feeling once I get the hang of stamblade I will start bringing it more to group dungeons and trials but I will solo more dungeons with my warden.

well thats great to hear! But with the NB, didnt you find the combat a tad "boring", aesthetically speaking? I kinda miss not having either flames, bugs, skellys or lighting all over the place. Then again, if the damage is as you say and it keeps you on your toes who has time for shinies, right?
I may give that Stamblade another look as its not really fair to judge when at lower levels anyways, most classes start to shine when max.
Cheers!!

OG_Kaveman

it is a relic of when the game came out. there was no stam/mag divide, at least in the way we think of it today, it was if you were a mag toon, then you used class skills. if you wanted to use stam for damage, all you had were weapon skills. there is much more variety in stam builds today, then almost 6 and half years ago.

Everest_Lionheart

Joxer61 wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Joxer61 wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

I recently made a stamblade that I’m still filling out equipment, skills and getting the rotation down. First parsing tests a few weeks ago were coming in at 54-56K in Hundings, Briarheart and Sellistrix (I will be swapping this to Velidreth when I have the transmute crystals.) 1 infused and 2 Bloodthirsty jewelry. Weapons and monster set gold, everything else purple. I’m still getting the rotation down but for sure from a raw power standpoint stamblade is stronger than Stamden. Part of that is my race choice as well. Khajiit warden vs Orc NB. The ceiling is way higher on the Orc.

. Real risk/reward.

But is it as fun to play as your Warden? And as you pointed out, pretty much the same if not a bit less than the Warden with gear and that and yet "feels" stronger.....why? Passives must really be that big of a factor....

The jury is still out on that one but for sure after running though nDSA last night on my stamblade with a guild mate who was helping me learn the nuances of the class I now understand how the skills all work together to create that power. There’s more buffs to keep up but you are looking at buffs that last 60 seconds, 26 seconds, and 2x 20 seconds. The timing of the ultimate is crucial to damage as well. If you have all of your buffs up and you hit incap just before spectral arrow proc and execute you can hit crazy high numbers. It’s a killing machine. Fun in a different way.

Now if my warden was Orc instead of Khajiit it would hit harder because the Orc passives got a big boost last patch. The warden is my main so I use it for all the content plus crafting. It’s a well rounded character that also can deal damage fairly well. A bit more versatile because it can fight in mid and long range as opposed to right up in the enemies face.

I have a feeling once I get the hang of stamblade I will start bringing it more to group dungeons and trials but I will solo more dungeons with my warden.

well thats great to hear! But with the NB, didnt you find the combat a tad "boring", aesthetically speaking? I kinda miss not having either flames, bugs, skellys or lighting all over the place. Then again, if the damage is as you say and it keeps you on your toes who has time for shinies, right?
I may give that Stamblade another look as its not really fair to judge when at lower levels anyways, most classes start to shine when max.
Cheers!!

It’s a faster and more active combat and doesn’t need to be all flashy flashy bling-a-ling to be exciting to me. Because you are always moving to get the most out of your damage and trying to hit from the flank so it helps to see what you are doing. Of course when you get in a room full of ranged adds all shooting fireballs at you there isn’t much to see any way, but that’s why we have DW and whirling blades plus deadly cloak combo. Run straight to the ranged adds and cut them down on the spot. Again the power comes from incap strike and it’s such a cheap ultimate that you get to use it a lot. It stuns the enemy allowing free shots from behind plus a huge damage boost. It literally all about the incap timing. That how we 2 manned nDSA last night by alternating incap on bosses and we killed those before all the adds could spawn every time.

I find NB is super easy to kite if you use mirage which gives you the 26 seconds of major evasion and minor resolve. It’s also a mag skill so it doesn’t take from your stam pool and you will always have more than enough mag to cast it when it runs out. Combine that with medium armour passives (I run 6 medium and 1 heavy my friend runs all medium) and you reduce the cost of sprint so you can run around kiting and barely burning stam. More medium armour means higher passives like stam recovery, crit rating and sprint speed and reduced roll dodge cost. Forget what those build guides are telling you about 5-1-1 for undaunted passive. All medium is better in every way. 2% bonus to you pools for undaunted passive or all medium for a net 8% to stam recovery, 4% reduction of cost to stam abilities, extra 656 crit rating, extra 6% sprint speed and extra 8% reduction to roll dodge. That’s the hidden stuff people need to account for when building their toons.

I don’t mind the plain looking melee fights when I look into the raw numbers. NB is the winner, but Warden aesthetically pleasing except when the netch and bear get in the way😂