Dungeon mechanic teaching charity run

lazywhiteseal

Hi im tank who just wants to help out strangers who, unwillingly and without knowing, ruin pug dungeons.

im talking about vet dungeons here where different variety of people do pugs for different purposes. some people just want the set gears so they can try on new gears. some people do it for daily bonus. some people want farm crafting motifs. alot of these people need to actually complete the dungeon to achieve their goal. a person rage quitting because they are stuck on a boss isnt really uncommon in my experience. if its a tank goes missing it almost always leads to ultimately disbanding the group because its hard to find a real tank. alot of the times when i run as a healer and a tank leaves mid dungeon, i have to switch to my tank to finish it, which is a minus for me because i wanted the daily bonus.

not all people know the mechanics of the dungeons especially the dlc ones. when 1 or more people dont know the mech it sometimes end up ugly like cursing each other or group disbanding thus wasting time. ive experienced it myself. worst cases scenario you have a low dps person without any mechanic knowledge like a new player or a very low cp player looking to get carried.

in VET dungeons, sometimes its just a new player who wants to be carried by more veteran players. thats the selfish and pompous type. and sometimes its just a new player who queued up not knowing how hard the dungeon was. these are the forgivable type.

before i go into any new dungeons i read AND watch the online guide. even though my research was thorough, i sometimes dont get the mech and make mistake. As a wise man once said knowledge is nothing without action. i want to help those players who dont know the mech. its bad for the group and bad for them.

now i dont know why so many of these people exist in the first place. one would ask why cant you do it with your guild and learn from them? my best guess is, many people are lone wolves. i was once a lone wolf myself. another guess would be they have a guild but their playtime is different from others or they are judt shy to ask their guildies for help.

i cant help the people who have extremely low dps for vet dungeon. if they are truly willing to learn i can help them out with the normal dungeon. i can donate my knowledge but i cant donate gears.

maybe im posting a useless thread here because majority of people might be just selfish people who dont care about mechanics and just wants to be carried by vet players. but doesnt hurt to ask the community about my little project im willing to do!

How would YOU do a charity to invest your time to teach genuinely new players? and if you do it, do you think people will sign up for it and ask for help?

newtinmpls

lazywhiteseal wrote: »

in VET dungeons, sometimes its just a new player who wants to be carried by more veteran players.

I admit that I am very skeptical that this type actually exists. I suspect that this illusion is caused by the utter lack of the non-vet dungeons to prep folks for actual dungeons.

I can't even count how many dungeons that I never knew the mechanics until I hit a wall in Vet. Very frustrating.

Stinkyremy

Well I'm a tank. I haven't played for 2 years I have 12 new dungeons and there is the wolf-hunter dungeons I have done a few times but forgot so 14 new dungeons I will have to pug as a tank.
I forgot the other hard DLC dungeons too but I have done them many times so will pick them up again.
So this time it is the flip side, I will be the one who would let them down. I play video games, I don't watch others play so I am not watching guides or the like for the mechanics, I will learn as I play, detrimental to finishing the pug dungeon or not.

Now in the past, I pugged every dungeon as a tank. When the hardest dungeons were cradle of shadows and WGT I pugged them at low CP. Yes of course I did so many runs that took hours and still didn't get completed but each loss allowed me to learn, eventually I became skilled at the dungeon and can run through it at super levels knowing every enemy every mech.

Here is the thing, I don't just quit on a team. I have pugged base game dungeons up to DLC dungeons with absolute noobs and instead of quitting I have explained what they are doing wrong, explained the mechanics and let them learn. There obviously gets to a point where you know you will never be able to do it but it has to get so bad before I will just quit on them.

That being said, I don't like to pug any DLC dungeon at all because the mecs and damage needed are too high and difficult for a CP170 dps who has never done the dungeon and just joined pug.
I think when the newer DLC like bloodroot forge released I limited the min CP dps I would run with and vote kicked lower CP at the beginning of dungeons or I wouldn't even attempt to run.
There was no point.

Mayrael

IMHO it's pointless, not because it's bad idea but because most of the "players" these days are very entitled, they think they should get gear just for entering dungeon, they should win every fight, they should be able to fight veteran PvP players having no experience on their own. Overland? It's difficult enough! No, they don't look for challenge, it should be easy.

I'm a PvP player mostly but when I was trying to farm some equipment or run dungs for achievements etc. etc. I always checked mechanics, sometimes I even ran normal dung's solo just to get good grip with them.

If someone doesn't even bother to spent 10-15 minutes to learn mechanics on their own, you think they will try to learn them in game?

Iselin

I get the impression that some think that dungeon PUGs are a job that must be completed withing a prescribed period of time with near optimal composition.

They're not that. They are potluck that lets in whoever ZOS in their wisdom thinks should be allowed to be in. If you're truly good at PUGs you adapt and go with the flow. If you're not, that's what pre-mades are for.

I have 900+ CP but just came back after being away for 18 months. I was good a year and half ago but a total noob when it comes to the new DLC dungeons.

I hope when I do get around to doing those new ones I don't get put in a group with those who are just there to knock it off as quickly as humanly possible lol.

zvavi

I stopped. When I was newer I was much more enthusiastic and positive about it, but after long time of being ignored (total silence), ignored (different ignored, they do chat but ignore explanations, I even heard things like "I knew the mechanics, I just ignored them"), and even insulted.

I have learnt that the more you chat about what other people need to do for us to have an easier run, the more chance I will finish the run more frustrated. Now days I would at most mention key mechanics if it seems like they really know nothing of stuff, preferably in the shortest politest sentence possible.

newtinmpls wrote: »

lazywhiteseal wrote: »

in VET dungeons, sometimes its just a new player who wants to be carried by more veteran players.

I admit that I am very skeptical that this type actually exists. I suspect that this illusion is caused by the utter lack of the non-vet dungeons to prep folks for actual dungeons.

I can't even count how many dungeons that I never knew the mechanics until I hit a wall in Vet. Very frustrating.

healers that refused to do anything but heal in vDLC said hi. Especially in groups full of magsorcs and magblades that don't need that treatment. And it is not new players. 1000+ CP ones too.

Elwendryll

I love teaching dungeon mechanics. I run a guild doing exactly that, and at the same time, I explain to strangers when it's clear they don't know it.

But well. Some people don't even speak English, others don't care, etc...

I'm 100% sure after killing some bosses that despite my explanations (if they let me some time to explain) the group didn't assimilate any mechanic.

josiahva

Stinkyremy wrote: »

I play video games, I don't watch others play so I am not watching guides or the like for the mechanics, I will learn as I play, detrimental to finishing the pug dungeon or not.

^^This. I personally do not like watching a spoiler before running new content for the first time, nor would I ever ask anyone else to do so. As a pug tank, I have no problem going over general fight mechs for the people who are there for the first time or the 10th time if maybe they just had not understood something up until that point. I have found that once people understand and follow mechanics most dungeons can completed regardless of DPS(with a few exceptions like vLoM)

Also...people have entirely the wrong view of pugs....when you pug a group, you should have no expectations. Period. You should NOT expect to finish the dungeon. You should not expect the damage to be decent. You should not expect heals. You should not expect a real tank. The fact is that you are joining a completely random group and anyone who has expectations of completely random people is deluded. I look at the group finder as a tool....it is NOT a tool to complete pledges or get a monster helm or anything else of that nature...its a tool to help you become a better player. Just because a group may be unable to complete a given dungeon does not mean there is nothing to be learned. If you are a DPS, you have the opportunity to refine your rotation under real-world conditions as you learn mechanics you may not know. If you are a healer, you have the opportunity to keep people alive under what may quickly become desperate circumstances. If you are a tank, you have to opportunity to try new strategies for bosses you never would have bothered to try in a group that was more optimized.

If you want smooth easy runs....just as billion people have already said a billion times, just don't use group finder...go in with a pre-made. "But not all of us have guilds or friends" is a popular excuse...but it is just that, an excuse. I am pretty anti-social and I have 4 guilds and a full friends list....so its not beyond anyone's capability to have the same.

Everest_Lionheart

Honestly I have no idea what half he mechanics are in some of these dungeons. 90% of my pugs are pure speed runs. Follow the tank and try to keep up. 2 days after DLC dropped I pugged Castle Thorn and got dropped into a high CP group. The three other guys were 810 and I was just under 600. We obliterated the place in about 10 minutes. I have no idea what the story is or what the boss mechanics were. Basically just a run and gun pew pew festival. No communication what so ever, not even time to communicate. As I was typing at the start they were already pulling the first mob.

I wish more people took their time to At least say a few words before these things kick off.

Cronopoly

As a former DK Shield Tank, It's sad. I used to Carry noob DPS and Healers to teach mechanics in basic Overland Vet Dungeons. Prior to it being Nerfed into the ground, I figured it was balanced by the fact that while doing this it took forever to clear some of these Vet dungeons sometimes hours with some of the DPS being so bad, however their elation brought some to tears when we eventually cleared. I made alot of friends back then.

Sadly most mentioned that until I helped them, they felt abandoned and alone in game in this regard. Many mentioned how they were going to help others in kind going forward.

Frankly over time the pain of keeping this gameplay alive, by Nerfs (Shields) etc basically broke the playstyle preventing me from helping others in this way. /wallotext off 😑😚

I had the question and guess I can answer myself that this was intended the "Forced Trinity".

I do miss helping people in that regard.

P.S I did near the same on my old NB Sap Tank... 😐

josiahva

Cronopoly wrote: »

As a former DK Shield Tank, It's sad. I used to Carry noob DPS and Healers to teach mechanics in basic Overland Vet Dungeons. Prior to it being Nerfed into the ground, I figured it was balanced by the fact that while doing this it took forever to clear some of these Vet dungeons sometimes hours with some of the DPS being so bad, however their elation brought some to tears when we eventually cleared. I made alot of friends back then.

Sadly most mentioned that until I helped them, they felt abandoned and alone in game in this regard. Many mentioned how they were going to help others in kind going forward.

Frankly over time the pain of keeping this gameplay alive, by Nerfs (Shields) etc basically broke the playstyle preventing me from helping others in this way. /wallotext off 😑😚

I had the question and guess I can answer myself that this was intended the "Forced Trinity".

I do miss helping people in that regard.

P.S I did near the same on my old NB Sap Tank... 😐

DK shield tank is alive and well, though not as crazy as it was when it was meta...I was playing one long before it was meta and am still playing one now. With igneous, bone shield, imperium, and barrier I can still occasionally hit 40k shields for the entire group. It actually got a buff with this last patch...Imperium shield strength went down a little, but its far more useful now since you can actually control the proc simply by weapon swapping. I now run Master Sword and Shield front bar and an Imperium resto staff back bar....swap to back bar, and Imperium will proc if you havent used it in the last 12 seconds or whatever...resto staff on backbar also gives you an emergency healing ward for a struggling DD(and combat prayer to buff DPS if running with 3DD). You could push it even further and use Lunar Bastion or something for your other set....but I prefer TBS since more magicka means more igneous shields and healing wards and its hard to beat TBS for raw tri-stat resources.

I would even go so far as to say its overall better than it was when meta since you no longer have to run nearly as high health to be effective.....which gives you more resources of other types.

KaGaOri

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Honestly I have no idea what half he mechanics are in some of these dungeons. 90% of my pugs are pure speed runs. Follow the tank and try to keep up. 2 days after DLC dropped I pugged Castle Thorn and got dropped into a high CP group. The three other guys were 810 and I was just under 600. We obliterated the place in about 10 minutes. I have no idea what the story is or what the boss mechanics were. Basically just a run and gun pew pew festival. No communication what so ever, not even time to communicate. As I was typing at the start they were already pulling the first mob.

I wish more people took their time to At least say a few words before these things kick off.

Recently got into running random normals + pug for pledges if there's time. Just wanted to expres endless gratitude to any teammates that:
- let me grab the quest and do it even if it meant waiting 10 sec before fighting next mob / boss, especially after been politely asked in chat
- didn't skip any bosses (or half of the dungeon)
- explained boss mechanics, especially in dlc dungeons
- or at least waited until everyone is in the room before starting the boss (had the gate shut into my toon's face more than once)
- didn't speedrun through trash while making rude comments when my magsorc inevitably runs out of stamina along the way and can no longer keep up
- and as a bonus to any tank who found out they're in a dlc dungeon and didn't leave on the spot

Yeah, it's a pug - you get what you get, but default for what you get shouldn't be inconsiderate speedrunner with plugs in their ears and blinders on.

Cronopoly

josiahva wrote: »

DK shield tank is alive and well, though not as crazy as it was when it was meta...I was playing one long before it was meta and am still playing one now. With igneous, bone shield, imperium, and barrier I can still occasionally hit 40k shields for the entire group. It actually got a buff with this last patch...Imperium shield strength went down a little, but its far more useful now since you can actually control the proc simply by weapon swapping. I now run Master Sword and Shield front bar and an Imperium resto staff back bar....swap to back bar, and Imperium will proc if you havent used it in the last 12 seconds or whatever...resto staff on backbar also gives you an emergency healing ward for a struggling DD(and combat prayer to buff DPS if running with 3DD). You could push it even further and use Lunar Bastion or something for your other set....but I prefer TBS since more magicka means more igneous shields and healing wards and its hard to beat TBS for raw tri-stat resources.

I would even go so far as to say its overall better than it was when meta since you no longer have to run nearly as high health to be effective.....which gives you more resources of other types.

Oh Thanks for the info! I'll have to resurrect him. He's been master crafting on the sidelines for months getting recent gathering mats from my only NB Vamp left that I use to Gather on a speed build. I cleansed all the others of course.

newtinmpls

I had said:

newtinmpls wrote: »

I can't even count how many dungeons that I never knew the mechanics until I hit a wall in Vet. Very frustrating.

zvavi wrote: »

healers that refused to do anything but heal in vDLC said hi. Especially in groups full of magsorcs and magblades that don't need that treatment. And it is not new players. 1000+ CP ones too.

I wanted to quote this 'cause I'm not sure what you mean.

Maybe as part of figuring out/realizing what you mean, I will say that I'm having a lot of fun 2-manning content; my bestie is an amazing DPS, and I like to play either tank (when we PUG) or healer (sometimes PUGing, sometimes just us two).

One of my favorite semi-rotations (apparently I'm just way too inherently chaotic to be able to handle a firm rotation) is to play with my Necro Bosmer Tank, and when mobs appear do a quick layering of a totem to freeze them, and wall of elements to start the dying, then some version of Life Amid Death to use the corpses to heal my allies over time.

A thought here: when we are participating in doing anchors or world bosses, my mutagen heals very visibly heal nearby folks, but I can't visibly see if those others also get the benefits of Live Amid Death or for that matter the benefits of the Fighter's Guild Circle of Protection and it's morphs. I hope so.

Oh, and here is something that I was glad to hear:

josiahva wrote: »

DK shield tank is alive and well

<snippage>

I now run Master Sword and Shield front bar and an Imperium resto staff back bar....swap to back bar, and Imperium will proc if you havent used it in the last 12 seconds or whatever...resto staff on backbar also gives you an emergency healing ward for a struggling DD(and combat prayer to buff DPS if running with 3DD).

Recently was in a PUG where a (struggling, likely new) person was running with S&B on one bar and staff on the other - now they were clearly a DK, but had queued as DPS, and I wondered what was up. Maybe trying to learn a similar build.

Thanks for the thought provoking idea...this is cool!