New almalexia set vs Battalion defender?

Heimdarm

Hi!

I plan to have one of these on my new tank. Question is which is better? I want to like almalexia as it doesnt require me to block, but that 7 meters looks so short.. I just returned to the game not long ago, so I need the answer of some expereinced folks about this. The tank would be used in dungeons, cyrodiil and BGs as well. I know that battalion defender was a useful tank set for many tanks especially when they tanked without healers long ago. Pls help

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Almalexia's+Mercy+Set

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Battalion+Defender+Set

Rexy18

Don't see either set being used in PvE since they don't offer group utility (Battalion might possibly have a niche use in 3 DD vBRP runs), but my PvP tonk uses Battalion + Crest and it's a nice combo. In a lot of PvP situations, 7m is rather small and it'd force your other body set to be heavy (since Almalexia is light).

Major_Lag

Rexy18 wrote: »

Don't see either set being used in PvE since they don't offer group utility (Battalion might possibly have a niche use in 3 DD vBRP runs), but my PvP tonk uses Battalion + Crest and it's a nice combo. In a lot of PvP situations, 7m is rather small and it'd force your other body set to be heavy (since Almalexia is light).

On the contrary, either of those 2 sets (as well as some other "selfish" sets, like Bahraha's or Leeching Plate) are super useful in less well organized types of group PvE content, such as when PUGging dungeons or helping inexperienced guildies practice.

Of course in well organized groups, where there is full control over the group composition and the skill level of every player is well known, "selfish" tank sets have little to no merit as there are much better support alternatives available for such cases.

Heimdarm

Major_Lag wrote: »

Rexy18 wrote: »

Don't see either set being used in PvE since they don't offer group utility (Battalion might possibly have a niche use in 3 DD vBRP runs), but my PvP tonk uses Battalion + Crest and it's a nice combo. In a lot of PvP situations, 7m is rather small and it'd force your other body set to be heavy (since Almalexia is light).

On the contrary, either of those 2 sets (as well as some other "selfish" sets, like Bahraha's or Leeching Plate) are super useful in less well organized types of group PvE content, such as when PUGging dungeons or helping inexperienced guildies practice.

Of course in well organized groups, where there is full control over the group composition and the skill level of every player is well known, "selfish" tank sets have little to no merit as there are much better support alternatives available for such cases.

Well, to be honest I always favoured selfish tank sets for endgame content, when I had a dedicated PVE only tank. I participated in many veteran trials maybe 2 or 3 years ago which were failed because the min-maxing dps leaders of the group required the tank(s) and the healers to have support sets for the group. Interestingly when the healers changed and wore dedicated healer sets and tanks changed for tank sets, the content could be finished. This phenomena is unique for this game, in all other MMORPGS I played the tank wears tank sets and the healer wears healing sets.

If participants of a group needs support set from the tank/healer to be able to finish the content than those players are not ready for that content and their build is wrong/unfinished. There is an exception for this of course if you want to do content without a healer (1tank/3dps)

Major_Lag

Heimdarm wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Rexy18 wrote: »

Don't see either set being used in PvE since they don't offer group utility (Battalion might possibly have a niche use in 3 DD vBRP runs), but my PvP tonk uses Battalion + Crest and it's a nice combo. In a lot of PvP situations, 7m is rather small and it'd force your other body set to be heavy (since Almalexia is light).

On the contrary, either of those 2 sets (as well as some other "selfish" sets, like Bahraha's or Leeching Plate) are super useful in less well organized types of group PvE content, such as when PUGging dungeons or helping inexperienced guildies practice.

Of course in well organized groups, where there is full control over the group composition and the skill level of every player is well known, "selfish" tank sets have little to no merit as there are much better support alternatives available for such cases.

Well, to be honest I always favoured selfish tank sets for endgame content, when I had a dedicated PVE only tank. I participated in many veteran trials maybe 2 or 3 years ago which were failed because the min-maxing dps leaders of the group required the tank(s) and the healers to have support sets for the group. Interestingly when the healers changed and wore dedicated healer sets and tanks changed for tank sets, the content could be finished. This phenomena is unique for this game, in all other MMORPGS I played the tank wears tank sets and the healer wears healing sets.

If participants of a group needs support set from the tank/healer to be able to finish the content than those players are not ready for that content and their build is wrong/unfinished. There is an exception for this of course if you want to do content without a healer (1tank/3dps)

Your perspective is kinda backwards: if the tank/healer are capable of clearing the content while wearing support sets instead of tank/healer sets, they should by all means do so.

Especially if you are score or achievement pushing - then that extra few % DPS may very well mean the difference between a successful and a failed run (doesn't have to be a wipe - if you fail to meet the requirements then it's still a failed run).

Of course when learning the content, having the tank or healer wear support sets can be counterproductive, as in the example you provided.
A similar situation exists with gearing for vMA: when learning the ropes you want to build quite tanky to be able to recover from numerous mistakes, but once you have good knowledge of its mechanics you want to change your build to a more damage-oriented setup to be able to clear it faster.

Heimdarm

Major_Lag wrote: »

Heimdarm wrote: »

Major_Lag wrote: »

Rexy18 wrote: »

Don't see either set being used in PvE since they don't offer group utility (Battalion might possibly have a niche use in 3 DD vBRP runs), but my PvP tonk uses Battalion + Crest and it's a nice combo. In a lot of PvP situations, 7m is rather small and it'd force your other body set to be heavy (since Almalexia is light).

On the contrary, either of those 2 sets (as well as some other "selfish" sets, like Bahraha's or Leeching Plate) are super useful in less well organized types of group PvE content, such as when PUGging dungeons or helping inexperienced guildies practice.

Of course in well organized groups, where there is full control over the group composition and the skill level of every player is well known, "selfish" tank sets have little to no merit as there are much better support alternatives available for such cases.

Well, to be honest I always favoured selfish tank sets for endgame content, when I had a dedicated PVE only tank. I participated in many veteran trials maybe 2 or 3 years ago which were failed because the min-maxing dps leaders of the group required the tank(s) and the healers to have support sets for the group. Interestingly when the healers changed and wore dedicated healer sets and tanks changed for tank sets, the content could be finished. This phenomena is unique for this game, in all other MMORPGS I played the tank wears tank sets and the healer wears healing sets.

If participants of a group needs support set from the tank/healer to be able to finish the content than those players are not ready for that content and their build is wrong/unfinished. There is an exception for this of course if you want to do content without a healer (1tank/3dps)

Your perspective is kinda backwards: if the tank/healer are capable of clearing the content while wearing support sets instead of tank/healer sets, they should by all means do so.

Especially if you are score or achievement pushing - then that extra few % DPS may very well mean the difference between a successful and a failed run (doesn't have to be a wipe - if you fail to meet the requirements then it's still a failed run).

Of course when learning the content, having the tank or healer wear support sets can be counterproductive, as in the example you provided.
A similar situation exists with gearing for vMA: when learning the ropes you want to build quite tanky to be able to recover from numerous mistakes, but once you have good knowledge of its mechanics you want to change your build to a more damage-oriented setup to be able to clear it faster.

The answer for the tank/healer is a support idea is in your own response. Mistakes. There can be a million things that can go wrong. The tank do a mistake, or any other group member do a mistake, unexpected lagg fest, bad timing for an order or any other miscommunication in discord/ts and when the *** hits the fan success can depend on the tankiness of the tank and on the healing capabilities of the healer. At those moments every small thing can count. That is why the tank and the healer should always maximize their own capabiliites for their own role. I can not even count how many times my selfish tank could save the whole group because it was simply invincible, but to achieve that I never wore any support sets.

But as I said and you wrote it as well, there are exceptions for this, and times when it is not just advised but required from the tank to use a set that supports the group in some way, but these are the "special" runs, these are really the exceptions. As a tank, even if I could tank a content with ease, even without armor, and blind eye, that not means I should do it. Because exactly of the unexpected errors, lags, bugs, miscommunications etc.

RogueShark

If participants of a group needs support set from the tank/healer to be able to finish the content than those players are not ready for that content and their build is wrong/unfinished. There is an exception for this of course if you want to do content without a healer (1tank/3dps)

You could easily say that if the tanks/healers need dedicated tanking/healing sets as opposed to sets that benefit the whole group more, then they are the ones not ready for 'end game content'. The reason tanks and healers are often shoehorned into sets like Alkosh or Zens or any other sets that aren't focused on tanking and healing is simply because... they can be. You don't need complete healer-focused or tank-focused sets to clear the hardest achievements in the game; in fact, running more support-oriented sets make those achievements easier. It comes down to the tanks and healers being able to perform their roles without needing to rely on healer or tank-focused sets. You also see some DPS put in gear that isn't min/max best for THEM, but it improves the group DPS overall, for the same reason: it's a team effort and everyone should be doing everything they can as individuals to accomplish the task as efficiently as possible, together.

That being said, for learning or pugging, it's best to wear what keeps you/others alive until you get the hang of things. There's no point in running Alkosh on a tank who can't manage good uptimes on it and dies because he didn't have a safety net. "Selfish" sets have their place and they are really, really good for helping people learn and for just starting out in a role. They're also really great for picking up slack if you're, for example, a tank running with a pug healer who sucks at healing. You definitely want to make yourself able to survive as long as possible on your own if you can't rely on your healer.

Heimdarm

RogueShark wrote: »

If participants of a group needs support set from the tank/healer to be able to finish the content than those players are not ready for that content and their build is wrong/unfinished. There is an exception for this of course if you want to do content without a healer (1tank/3dps)

You could easily say that if the tanks/healers need dedicated tanking/healing sets as opposed to sets that benefit the whole group more, then they are the ones not ready for 'end game content'.

I can repeat myself:

"The tank do a mistake, or any other group member do a mistake, unexpected lagg fest, bad timing for an order or any other miscommunication in discord/ts and when the *** hits the fan success can depend on the tankiness of the tank and on the healing capabilities of the healer. At those moments every small thing can count."

And you either did not understand my point or just twisted my words on purpose. Tanks and healers do not "need" dedicated sets if everything goes well. But they should wear them, because that's their role and they should try to be prepared for the unexpected and for the worse case scenario. If a tank can tank content in support and in selfish set, and he choose the selfish set it doesn't mean he is not prepared. But the dps who can not kill the boss/mob in time without the tank/healer supporting his damage output is definetly not ready for the content.

One can tank some dungeons without armor at all. But players should not be stupid to do that. Support sets has and always had their place in some content (like 3dd+1tank), but majority of endgame tanking and healing should be made in dedicated tanking and healing sets.

RogueShark

Thing is, if the DPS is so low they can't clear the content, tanks/healers providing buff/support sets aren't going to make the difference. In that situation, yeah, DPS are not ready for end game content.
If tanks/healers are making enough mistakes that they are going to wipe the group without "selfish" sets, then they also probably aren't ready for end game content.

It also depends entirely on what you consider 'end game content', too. You can clear any normal trial with a broomstick and a dream; even some of the vet trials, it really doesn't matter what you wear at all. Looking at things like the no death/HM/speed trials, support roles should be supporting. Having a tank in Ebon and Worm is far more beneficial to a group in those types of situations than a tank in a couple selfish sets.

mobicera

No thank you.
If you really feel the need to go selfish and the group allows it, well then you do you.
But no I'm afraid your opinion that healers and tanks should play selfish is contrary to the whole leaderboard scoring system.
Tanks and healers are support roles so support to the full extent you are able to.
As was said dps also wears sets to boost overall group damage.
It's a team effort and everyone should be expected to try and fulfill their role to the best of their ability.

Heimdarm

mobicera wrote: »

Tanks and healers are support roles

lol

Merforum

Heimdarm wrote: »

RogueShark wrote: »

If participants of a group needs support set from the tank/healer to be able to finish the content than those players are not ready for that content and their build is wrong/unfinished. There is an exception for this of course if you want to do content without a healer (1tank/3dps)

You could easily say that if the tanks/healers need dedicated tanking/healing sets as opposed to sets that benefit the whole group more, then they are the ones not ready for 'end game content'.

I can repeat myself:

"The tank do a mistake, or any other group member do a mistake, unexpected lagg fest, bad timing for an order or any other miscommunication in discord/ts and when the *** hits the fan success can depend on the tankiness of the tank and on the healing capabilities of the healer. At those moments every small thing can count."

And you either did not understand my point or just twisted my words on purpose. Tanks and healers do not "need" dedicated sets if everything goes well. But they should wear them, because that's their role and they should try to be prepared for the unexpected and for the worse case scenario. If a tank can tank content in support and in selfish set, and he choose the selfish set it doesn't mean he is not prepared. But the dps who can not kill the boss/mob in time without the tank/healer supporting his damage output is definetly not ready for the content.

One can tank some dungeons without armor at all. But players should not be stupid to do that. Support sets has and always had their place in some content (like 3dd+1tank), but majority of endgame tanking and healing should be made in dedicated tanking and healing sets.

THIS \/ \/
If a tank can tank content in support and in selfish set, and he choose the selfish set it doesn't mean he is not prepared. But the dps who can not kill the boss/mob in time without the tank/healer supporting his damage output is definetly not ready for the content.


[snip] As if tanking isn't hard enough, you are also supposed to buff the group. What a joke. If 2 DPS in dungeons and 8 in Trials can't clear content/buff each other they are NOT ready for the content.

I don't have any answer to you question about those 2 sets you mention but I've tried many other tank sets and always come back to Leeching as it damages many enemies and keeps tank on any class/race alive without healer or heal skills needed.

[Edited to remove Rude Comments]

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