The solution to performance problems !?

LandmannX

The problem is that the PVE system (Comprehensive Variable Skills System [the strengths and the unique selling point of ESO]) does not go together with a PVP.

The server just won't be able to work through the many skill variants in the foreseeable future.

At ESO, PVE is just a "simulated" real-time combat system. But it's fun because you can play differently depending on the character. The great variation is what makes the pwer from ESO!

PVP needs a "real" real-time combat system. Short ping times and a fast "reaction time". This is the time it takes the server to calculate the results.

What do you think about:

The current skill system is retained for the PVE. It can also be a little unfair. It is also active in arenas or special battles.

A new skill system is being introduced for the "real" PVP. A simple small skill tree that has absolutely nothing to do with the skills of the PVE.

[Story about this: Failed Daedra magic destroys all life in Cyrodil, and you can only fight there with special amulets (skill system). ('complete Storryline if required )]

For explanation. For e.g. Quake-Online has almost no skills. The skills are just your current weapon. This enables fast and smart gaming. An online match is really fun. But, the more skill variations there are, the more the server has to calculate.

Wouldn't it be better to completely separate the PVP and PVE part? With a matching storryline, of course. Better to completely destroy Cyrodil and then host a new PVP part.

I guess that otherwise the performance problems won't stop, or ESO will be completely downgraded.

[... here was another text that expressed my current final deception about the current state of the game ...]

dsalter

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

_adhyffbjjjf12

dsalter wrote: »

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

There's already a precedent that has proven WVW works, GW2. It has huge zones and large blob fights with FAR more aoe that works with little lag. The issue is the poorly coded solution here.

Tandor

dsalter wrote: »

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

So if the zone was reduced in size, the cross-zone journeys would be reduced in length and Rapids wouldn't be needed, or could at least be moved further up the skill tree - say in exchange for Vigor. Is that what you're leading to ?

relentless_turnip

No I like the combat system a lot, I understand the need for separation from pve and PvP. It shouldn't become confusing or inaccessible to new players and sadly I think your suggestion would achieve this.

I think the solution is to minimise the calculations caused by skills and sets in PvP zones. Which is more or less what they're trying to do.

dsalter

Tandor wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

So if the zone was reduced in size, the cross-zone journeys would be reduced in length and Rapids wouldn't be needed, or could at least be moved further up the skill tree - say in exchange for Vigor. Is that what you're leading to ?

nope, straight up just suggesting smaller map with cut out sections means we wouldn't have as many areas to keep loading.
Imperial City atm is seeing the same sort of traffic Cyrodiil usually has and yet doesnt lag.
because it is far smaller, split up and has less pointless areas hogging resources.
about 40% of cyrodiil is either empty or full of PvE areas with NPC's, daily quests that need tracking, mobs that are using up resources to run their pathing and suchs, etc.
the rest of cyrodiil is either keeps, bridges, outposts and gates, all running seperate health bars per section with NPC's using targetting, pathing, etc.
it all adds up.
sure IC might have NPC's but each section is cut up into small fragments so every area is loaded and run seperate allowing for smoother play.

zaria

LandmannX wrote: »

The problem is that the PVE system (Comprehensive Variable Skills System [the strengths and the unique selling point of ESO]) does not go together with a PVP.

The server just won't be able to work through the many skill variants in the foreseeable future.

At ESO, PVE is just a "simulated" real-time combat system. But it's fun because you can play differently depending on the character. The great variation is what makes the pwer from ESO!

PVP needs a "real" real-time combat system. Short ping times and a fast "reaction time". This is the time it takes the server to calculate the results.

What do you think about:

The current skill system is retained for the PVE. It can also be a little unfair. It is also active in arenas or special battles.

A new skill system is being introduced for the "real" PVP. A simple small skill tree that has absolutely nothing to do with the skills of the PVE.

[Story about this: Failed Daedra magic destroys all life in Cyrodil, and you can only fight there with special amulets (skill system). ('complete Storryline if required )]

For explanation. For e.g. Quake-Online has almost no skills. The skills are just your current weapon. This enables fast and smart gaming. An online match is really fun. But, the more skill variations there are, the more the server has to calculate.

Wouldn't it be better to completely separate the PVP and PVE part? With a matching storryline, of course. Better to completely destroy Cyrodil and then host a new PVP part.

I guess that otherwise the performance problems won't stop, or ESO will be completely downgraded.

[... here was another text that expressed my current final deception about the current state of the game ...]

Quake online looks like an arena style game, all the game modes looks more like ESO BG.
Now an more relevant comparison is battle royal games as its has more player in instance but it does not have large groups of players fighting each other lots of time.

And I say that most of the problem is on the client. If it was on server all should have the same issues. Like run into a couple of trials with very much lag, here I assume system put us on an busy server

Now to test this go to Alkir during prime hours, farm some mats or do a quest at an remote location, note your FPS.
Track down the main dolmen zerg and follow it, do not fight just watch, now look at your framerate.
If you have lots of lag its your system, server does the same work.

Now ESO client has its own issues, people with bis level gaming rigs has lag problems.
If I was ZOS I would focus on reducing graphic quality in huge fights like Cyrodil wars and huge trash pulls in trials, I get lots of lag in the huge fights in MoL who is pretty much only where as I don't do ball groups in Cyrodil, more of an door knocker

LandmannX

zaria wrote: »

And I say that most of the problem is on the client. If it was on server all should have the same issues. Like run into a couple of trials with very much lag, here I assume system put us on an busy server

The client is definitely not to blame. If you look at the network traffic, you can see the long response times from the server.

Just let a network sniffer run along.

zaria

LandmannX wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

And I say that most of the problem is on the client. If it was on server all should have the same issues. Like run into a couple of trials with very much lag, here I assume system put us on an busy server

The client is definitely not to blame. If you look at the network traffic, you can see the long response times from the server.
Just let a network sniffer run along.

Yes you have some point, once was on an busy Cyrodil server.
One in guild is from South Africa, and he was kind of teleport around, think sorcerer streak but without the effects and he was not an sorc, all the others was moving normally and we was not in combat.
It looks like its lots of unnecessary communication going on and remember that everything stacks. Server delay, network delay and client delay.

But the number of players who set up their graphic to run smooth overland out of combat is are only overshadowed by the ones who use the default settings who focus on having overland looking nice to get new players to stay.
Was a bit nervous moving to an new PC, works as well as the old, however moving ESO from an disc drive to an M2 SSD did not help at all outside of having textures load faster. previosly it could take seconds then nearby players and npc outfits looked washed out until they loaded. Don't help with zone load times so this is server based.

dsalter

honestly if they x6 or x12 the NPC's damage and health around keeps and reduced the total amount of NPC's by half or more you would see just a little less lag, now remove all those unneeded PvE quest area's the mobs at skyshards and the pointless areas of the map and there will be less NPC server calculations for moving around, attacking, stealth checking, etc.

LandmannX

The display on the monitor is always local. Only one position and your actions are transmitted to the server. If you see black players, the server just didn't send you the current skinn. the graphics for the skinn are on your PC. The skinn is just a short number.
The results of your actions are of course something else. The server has to take into account all your skill variations. So calculate. The more variations, the more calculations.
If you have a short response time (ping) it is always the server's fault.

therefore: short calculation -> faster server

TwinLamps

I mean I dont know why I still play.

Go to noCP IC, my ping on EU is 800 or so most of the time when facing dc megazerg.
Great, lets try something else.
Queue for BGs
What a surprise, my gapclosers dont work and my team is (again) 3 ppl only against full groups that seem not to have gapcloser issues.
OK, maybe I can do something else, right?
After quite a while finally get 4 ppl for DSA.
Stage 8, enemies dont spawn.
We port out, get back in, nothing.

Is there a segment of this game that isnt broken?

LandmannX

Your problem is your ping from 800. However, this is usually a problem with your internet provider. To play online "real time" you need a ping well below 100.

800 ms are almost 1 s. So all keystrokes / mouse actions and answers need almost a second to reach the addressee.

And 1s is a long time.

Time is relative. Hold your hand 1s on a hot plate.

TwinLamps

LandmannX wrote: »

Your problem is your ping from 800. However, this is usually a problem with your internet provider. To play online "real time" you need a ping well below 100.

800 ms are almost 1 s. So all keystrokes / mouse actions and answers need almost a second to reach the addressee.

And 1s is a long time.

Time is relative. Hold your hand 1s on a hot plate.

my ping outside IC was 73

zergbase_ESO

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

There's already a precedent that has proven WVW works, GW2. It has huge zones and large blob fights with FAR more aoe that works with little lag. The issue is the poorly coded solution here.

Yep they have HUUUUGE WVWVW map....

gatekeeper13

dsalter wrote: »

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

IC lags too when population is high. Wherever there is a zerg, there is lag, exactly like it happens in cyro.

It's just that the IC is empty most of the time, hence the low ping.

LandmannX wrote: »

Your problem is your ping from 800. However, this is usually a problem with your internet provider.

In ESO, this is usually a problem with game's server which is too weak to cope with the demand.

Knightpanther

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

the issue with Cyrodiil is that its to damn big.
Imperial City doesn't lag because its segmented off by loading screens so its in smaller slices.
Cyrodiil needs to be shrunken down and the PvE area's removed, sprinkle some easy NPC's between keeps for vampires and werewolves to feed on if need be but otherwise cyrodiil needs to be a strict Massive player combat zone.

There's already a precedent that has proven WVW works, GW2. It has huge zones and large blob fights with FAR more aoe that works with little lag. The issue is the poorly coded solution here.

Couldn't agree more, ive gone back to GW2 as Cyrodiil is still unplayable at times, even at peak time with multiple blobs it runs smooth as silk.

Be Safe

Daemons_Bane

If the TRUE solution was known, we would not have a problem