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The REAL reason the dwemer disappeared
Saucy_Jack
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As I was playing through Skyrim YET AGAIN, I took a closer look at the artwork of the environments. And this time around I noticed a prevalent motif present in all dwemer ruins:
And I thought, well that's strange; that's not really a geometric pattern like you would think the dwemer would have used, given their propensity for logic and reason. But then it hit me - the reason why dwemer civilization was so far advanced beyond everyone else; the reason they had the tech to make automatons; the reason they had giant steam-powered elevators into massive caverns while everyone else was working with simple staircases. You know what else looks like that motif?
How else would they have gotten the knowledge to build something like the Numidium? How else would Kagrenac learned how to make his famous tools in an attempt to achieve divinity? But all of these massive achievements by the dwemer always came with a cost; in the case of the Numidium, every time it was used it was accompanied by sweeping changes to the space-time continuum, and of course by trying to manipulate Lorkhan's heart with his tools, Kagrenac vanished the dwemer from the face of Nirn.
Why else would that motif be so prevalent in dwemer stonework? It's literally everywhere in any dwemer ruin, but it makes sense if they were trying to give a nod to the being who essentially made all the great advances of their civilization possible. And of course, it also makes sense that old Herma-Mora would be playing the long game, and trade all of these technological secrets to the dwemer knowing he would eventually have the last laugh. As he would put it, "All knowledge has its price."
And I thought, well that's strange; that's not really a geometric pattern like you would think the dwemer would have used, given their propensity for logic and reason. But then it hit me - the reason why dwemer civilization was so far advanced beyond everyone else; the reason they had the tech to make automatons; the reason they had giant steam-powered elevators into massive caverns while everyone else was working with simple staircases. You know what else looks like that motif?
How else would they have gotten the knowledge to build something like the Numidium? How else would Kagrenac learned how to make his famous tools in an attempt to achieve divinity? But all of these massive achievements by the dwemer always came with a cost; in the case of the Numidium, every time it was used it was accompanied by sweeping changes to the space-time continuum, and of course by trying to manipulate Lorkhan's heart with his tools, Kagrenac vanished the dwemer from the face of Nirn.
Why else would that motif be so prevalent in dwemer stonework? It's literally everywhere in any dwemer ruin, but it makes sense if they were trying to give a nod to the being who essentially made all the great advances of their civilization possible. And of course, it also makes sense that old Herma-Mora would be playing the long game, and trade all of these technological secrets to the dwemer knowing he would eventually have the last laugh. As he would put it, "All knowledge has its price."
ALL HAIL SNUGGLORR THE MAGNIFICENT, KING OF THE RNG AND NIRN'S ONE TRUE GOD! Also, become a Scrub-scriber! SJ Scrubs: Playing games badly to make you feel better about yourself.
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AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I believe the exact nature of the demise of the Dwemer is supposed to remain a mystery, providing for several theories and academic discussion among scholars. In my character's head-cannon world, Azura is her godmother and the Mistress of Twilight has confessed to wiping out the Dwemer in a fit of pique after the events described in the story 'Azura and the Box'. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Azura_and_the_Box
A tiny excerpt from my character's fanfiction:
She dipped her head slightly and smiled briefly. “The fact remains that I have caused numerous cruel things to happen to satisfy my whims.”
“I’ve made mistakes too, Godmother. I have tortured both bandits and necromancers, and even savored making them pay for their atrocities. I realize now that such actions made me little better than they. I have learned the difference between vengeful retribution and righteous justice.”
“Spoken like the paladin I expect you shall become. Like the older paladin who dwells within you. My vindictive deeds are more . . . sweeping in consequence. In a fit of pique when a Dwemer mage attempted to trick me, I extinguished his entire race, leaving behind only perpetual mystery regarding their demise.” A winged twilight floated by with a teapot and refilled our cups. “You mentioned my Star. There will come a time you have not yet visited when a necromancer will attempt to corrupt it to his purpose. I shall respond by collapsing the ground under his coastal city – spilling most of its buildings and inhabitants into the icy Sea of Ghosts. Vengeance is part of my nature.”
Edited by AcadianPaladin on September 5, 2020 8:06PMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo3 -
faeeichenlaub✭✭✭✭Love the thinking here. I still think this was likely a deal ultimately made between Daedric lords, a transaction if you will on the balance sheet of mortals between Hermaeous Mora and Azura which likely settled a score between them.
Cause (Mora) and Effect (Azura).
The price for the knowledge gained under one Daedric prince, was foreclosed upon by another. Azura certainly had her reasons to seek vengeance for Dwemer arrogance directed at her specifically.Edited by faeeichenlaub on September 5, 2020 8:09PM"Azura give me strength, Let my voice change the world as long as I am in it."0 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AcadianPaladin wrote: »"I believe the exact nature of the demise of the Dwemer is supposed to remain a mystery”[/i]
it is, you are correct, and it will always remain as such.
There simply is not enough facts to prove any theory with completion. we are always left with another possibility, another theory, another guess.
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's a cool theory. But I'm quite certain it's wrong. Unfortunately, since I really like the idea.
You see, the Dwemer RESENTED the godly beings. Capital letters. Be it Aedra, Daedra, Magna Gi, whatever - the Dwemer didn't worship them. They didn't make deals with them. They rather mocked them, as seen in the story of "Azura and the Box". The Dwemer fundamentally reject the idea of powerful beings with divine gifts. They rather see them as a step above, which the Dwemer themselves want to get to. With logic and their tonal manipulation. This technique resembles the way dragons use their Thu'um, btw. So if anything, the Dwemer would have rather struck a deal with Kynareth. But they didn't.
The most prominent theory as to what happened to them is the zero sum theory. When Kagrenac struck the heart, all Dwemer gained the insight that the world of TES is just a dream in the head of Amaranth, the TRUE god. This shattered their whole belief system and since they couldn't come to terms with them being just an imagination and not rational existences, they ceased to exist in this dream world and thus vanished.0 -
cyclonus11✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The most prominent theory as to what happened to them is the zero sum theory. When Kagrenac struck the heart, all Dwemer gained the insight that the world of TES is just a dream in the head of Amaranth, the TRUE god. This shattered their whole belief system and since they couldn't come to terms with them being just an imagination and not rational existences, they ceased to exist in this dream world and thus vanished.
What I don't like about this theory:
Zero Sum means completely removed from existence. It's not just that you disappear, but that you never existed in the first place. To zero sum an entire race means all evidence that they existed at all would also be zero summed. So no ruins or Dwemer ghosts or Yagrum Bagarn. Think of the jungles of Cyrodiil. Tiber Septim supposedly zero summed them - meaning they ceased to exist completely - as in there were now never any jungles in Cyrodiil, or evidence of jungles in Cyrodiil. The same would be true of the Dwemer if they were truly zero summed. I personally think they just transported themselves (meaning only those who were alive at the time, and inside the Mundus) to a plane outside of the Aurbis, and that they still exist somewhere (or their descendants still exist).1 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cyclonus11 wrote: »The most prominent theory as to what happened to them is the zero sum theory. When Kagrenac struck the heart, all Dwemer gained the insight that the world of TES is just a dream in the head of Amaranth, the TRUE god. This shattered their whole belief system and since they couldn't come to terms with them being just an imagination and not rational existences, they ceased to exist in this dream world and thus vanished.
What I don't like about this theory:
Zero Sum means completely removed from existence. It's not just that you disappear, but that you never existed in the first place. To zero sum an entire race means all evidence that they existed at all would also be zero summed. So no ruins or Dwemer ghosts or Yagrum Bagarn. Think of the jungles of Cyrodiil. Tiber Septim supposedly zero summed them - meaning they ceased to exist completely - as in there were now never any jungles in Cyrodiil, or evidence of jungles in Cyrodiil. The same would be true of the Dwemer if they were truly zero summed. I personally think they just transported themselves (meaning only those who were alive at the time, and inside the Mundus) to a plane outside of the Aurbis, and that they still exist somewhere (or their descendants still exist).
The jungles of Cyrodiil were probably just false lore. ESO takes place shortly before Tiber's era and there are no jungles to be seen.
Think of the zero sum more like of Dagoth Ur. He also stood at the doorstep of Chim, but decided to reverse it for himself. Thus, when you strike the heart, he doesn't die but just vanishes. But he used to be there, with evidence. That's likely how it worked for the Dwemer. Or rather didn't work.0 -
TwinLamps✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am willing to believe dwemer disappeared thanks to poor server performance.Awake, but at what cost6 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
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"False lore" is a boring cop out. I'll never forgive the ESO devs for Alinor and their reasoning... But yeah, the lack of jungle in ESO is an annoying one, because ESO clearly designed Cyrodiil this way to match what players had seen before in TES4 (gotta have that nostalgia). So while it's an understandable game design decision, it means a really interesting lore theory gets shafted. I do love the other idea of Towers altering their surrounding landscape to suit the desires of those who live here though. So Cyrodiil was jungle for the Ayleids, but shifted to fertile temperate land after the Alessian rebellion. Also helps explain Skyrim's snow (since Nords came from freezing Atmora) and Hammerfell's desert (Redguards from Yokuda).cyclonus11 wrote: »The most prominent theory as to what happened to them is the zero sum theory. When Kagrenac struck the heart, all Dwemer gained the insight that the world of TES is just a dream in the head of Amaranth, the TRUE god. This shattered their whole belief system and since they couldn't come to terms with them being just an imagination and not rational existences, they ceased to exist in this dream world and thus vanished.
What I don't like about this theory:
Zero Sum means completely removed from existence. It's not just that you disappear, but that you never existed in the first place. To zero sum an entire race means all evidence that they existed at all would also be zero summed. So no ruins or Dwemer ghosts or Yagrum Bagarn. Think of the jungles of Cyrodiil. Tiber Septim supposedly zero summed them - meaning they ceased to exist completely - as in there were now never any jungles in Cyrodiil, or evidence of jungles in Cyrodiil. The same would be true of the Dwemer if they were truly zero summed. I personally think they just transported themselves (meaning only those who were alive at the time, and inside the Mundus) to a plane outside of the Aurbis, and that they still exist somewhere (or their descendants still exist).
The jungles of Cyrodiil were probably just false lore. ESO takes place shortly before Tiber's era and there are no jungles to be seen.1 -
Gythral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They left after seeing how badly the world was being run but the PC-EU hamster
Edited by Gythral on September 5, 2020 10:15PM“Be as a tower, that, firmly set,
Shakes not its top for any blast that blows!”
Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Darkstorne wrote: »
"False lore" is a boring cop out. I'll never forgive the ESO devs for Alinor and their reasoning... But yeah, the lack of jungle in ESO is an annoying one, because ESO clearly designed Cyrodiil this way to match what players had seen before in TES4 (gotta have that nostalgia). So while it's an understandable game design decision, it means a really interesting lore theory gets shafted. I do love the other idea of Towers altering their surrounding landscape to suit the desires of those who live here though. So Cyrodiil was jungle for the Ayleids, but shifted to fertile temperate land after the Alessian rebellion. Also helps explain Skyrim's snow (since Nords came from freezing Atmora) and Hammerfell's desert (Redguards from Yokuda).cyclonus11 wrote: »The most prominent theory as to what happened to them is the zero sum theory. When Kagrenac struck the heart, all Dwemer gained the insight that the world of TES is just a dream in the head of Amaranth, the TRUE god. This shattered their whole belief system and since they couldn't come to terms with them being just an imagination and not rational existences, they ceased to exist in this dream world and thus vanished.
What I don't like about this theory:
Zero Sum means completely removed from existence. It's not just that you disappear, but that you never existed in the first place. To zero sum an entire race means all evidence that they existed at all would also be zero summed. So no ruins or Dwemer ghosts or Yagrum Bagarn. Think of the jungles of Cyrodiil. Tiber Septim supposedly zero summed them - meaning they ceased to exist completely - as in there were now never any jungles in Cyrodiil, or evidence of jungles in Cyrodiil. The same would be true of the Dwemer if they were truly zero summed. I personally think they just transported themselves (meaning only those who were alive at the time, and inside the Mundus) to a plane outside of the Aurbis, and that they still exist somewhere (or their descendants still exist).
The jungles of Cyrodiil were probably just false lore. ESO takes place shortly before Tiber's era and there are no jungles to be seen.
Yes, there really was a lot of potential. But realistically, you could see it coming. For a throwaway MMO expansion, you just don't get too crazy. Should we ever get the chance to see the Isles in a full TES game, it could look more fascinating. But I doubt we'll see anything after TES VI.0 -
Darkstorne✭✭✭✭✭
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What's really depressing is their original concept art for the isle showed Alinor with unique and gloriously crystalline architecture. And the crystal tower looked more like the Arena design, but with a giant crystal shard on top. So it seems like the art team wanted to do sooooo much more, but then the reality of trying to create the entire island in a single year set in, so every city used the exact same copy/paste architectureDarkstorne wrote: »
"False lore" is a boring cop out. I'll never forgive the ESO devs for Alinor and their reasoning... But yeah, the lack of jungle in ESO is an annoying one, because ESO clearly designed Cyrodiil this way to match what players had seen before in TES4 (gotta have that nostalgia). So while it's an understandable game design decision, it means a really interesting lore theory gets shafted. I do love the other idea of Towers altering their surrounding landscape to suit the desires of those who live here though. So Cyrodiil was jungle for the Ayleids, but shifted to fertile temperate land after the Alessian rebellion. Also helps explain Skyrim's snow (since Nords came from freezing Atmora) and Hammerfell's desert (Redguards from Yokuda).cyclonus11 wrote: »The most prominent theory as to what happened to them is the zero sum theory. When Kagrenac struck the heart, all Dwemer gained the insight that the world of TES is just a dream in the head of Amaranth, the TRUE god. This shattered their whole belief system and since they couldn't come to terms with them being just an imagination and not rational existences, they ceased to exist in this dream world and thus vanished.
What I don't like about this theory:
Zero Sum means completely removed from existence. It's not just that you disappear, but that you never existed in the first place. To zero sum an entire race means all evidence that they existed at all would also be zero summed. So no ruins or Dwemer ghosts or Yagrum Bagarn. Think of the jungles of Cyrodiil. Tiber Septim supposedly zero summed them - meaning they ceased to exist completely - as in there were now never any jungles in Cyrodiil, or evidence of jungles in Cyrodiil. The same would be true of the Dwemer if they were truly zero summed. I personally think they just transported themselves (meaning only those who were alive at the time, and inside the Mundus) to a plane outside of the Aurbis, and that they still exist somewhere (or their descendants still exist).
The jungles of Cyrodiil were probably just false lore. ESO takes place shortly before Tiber's era and there are no jungles to be seen.
Yes, there really was a lot of potential. But realistically, you could see it coming. For a throwaway MMO expansion, you just don't get too crazy. Should we ever get the chance to see the Isles in a full TES game, it could look more fascinating. But I doubt we'll see anything after TES VI.
I am glad to see they learned the folly of that though, and both Elsweyr and Greymoor focused on only two/three cities at a time. It means Senchal got the time for some unique assets, and if we ever get to visit the Tenmar region one day we'll see Corinthe and Torval with unique architecture too. I wish Summerset had taken that approach, rather than an island you can ride from one coast to the other in 60 seconds, and every city looking identical. Except Dusk. Poor Dusk is just a single tower with a locked door
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