Split Dungeon Queues...?

GsusMcNutty

Alright, pretty sure this has been said many times before but into the void I go.

I just recently got back into the game and brought a friend with me. We queue up for random queue and Fungal Grotto I. We get paired up with some at about our level and we go about clearing. A bit of a struggle, but being seasoned MMOers, we push through and have a good time while beating the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time. Was a pretty good experience so let's get the queue going again then, boom, a couple of CP God's and we go traipsing in the next one, so unmemorable I don't remember which it was, with no aspect of MMO to be found. Ok. This is a thing. I had to convince my friend that, oh it gets more interesting past 50 with vet dungeons and trials. Managed to, but me getting a few other friends after him to join truly did the convincing.

Anecdote over. Real talk time.

We've now been playing for a good week or so now, and in the meantime, I've perused the forums looking for something similar to my gripe and only came up with 2 generally close complaints that come close: "Dungeon Rushers" and "Fake Tanks." May be an odd correlation, but stick with me.

My anecdote above highlights how if feels with a rusher and other experiences have had people quit because the lower levels aren't fast enough. Pretty annoying but we've stuck with the dungeon even if it was our "Tank" that left and actually had a blast with the challenge of using what you got. The "Fake Tank" is very well know to be the product of queue times, had a 20m one yesterday, and end up being in the same camp as those when want to rush. Had a long queue time and just want to go through it quickly? Queue as a tank, run in and get it over with. Two problems all from queue times, and the solution is simple: Split queue at level 50.
"Wait, wait, long queues already and you want a split?!?" I can already hear it, sounds counter productive but, here we go.

First, the community is already split about what they want from dungeons. One wants to be able to enjoy dungeons and have a bit of a challenge, and tends to be under level 50. The other wants to farm and get faster exp, and tends to be above 50. Splitting the queue here makes sense. If someone under 50 wants to go through fast, they should get a guild to help them. The standard for requiring interaction and guilds should trickle down, not up. It's much harder to convince the new player that he should join a guild than the person leveling another toon.

Second, the tech is already implemented in Battlegrounds so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to imagine, from a developers standpoint, that it wouldn't be hard to create. BG is a whole other monster with queue time (though I, personally, haven't had an issue with queue), and isn't my area to speak on.

Third, tanks. Whoah, tank talk too? Oh boy. One cause of long queue times is the lack of tanks. I recently queued in as a tank and instant queue: "Great! Oh, high levels rushing the dungeon. Great. Hopefully I get a game at my level so I can practice." Probably a pretty common thought. How is the community supposed to get tanks interested in tanking when they have the DPS rushing in? How are they supposed to practice at early game aside from hoping that they get an At Level dungeon group? You don't get tanks interested, you don't have tanks for queue, which means longer queue, which means fake tanks. If you practice doing something wrong when it doesn't matter, you are gonna do it wrong when it does. Tank lives matter guys. If they have to practice wrong, they are going to do wrong, get a chorus of disapproval from their hardcore team, and quit. No tanks. Ad nauseum.

Fourth and final, challenging players at the start is a good way to keep someone interested. It's why we chase and stick with those hard to reach ladies and gentlemen over the easy ones (most of the time *looks at ex disapprovingly*). It's why we build massive games and play them at a grand scale. It is why I remember that first challenging time in a dungeon and not the crappy, easy next one. "Not because they are easy, but because they are hard." - Abe Roosevelt Kennedy 2027 I think. It's like playing Dark Souls but you are the Boss and you are fighting the player. Novel idea, but short lived.

Yes, the queue might suffer for a bit. Yes, I'm talking at the void with this one, but he queue will heal over time and get your solid player base, but not if isn't fixed first.
*Waits for void to echo back*
Edit: forgot obligatory TLDR for wall of text:
Fix dungeon queue to split at lvl 50 for long term health of the game. Like 4 birds, one stone.

Dusk_Coven

Solo mode would solve a lot of things. All those people rushing for loot can rush in solo mode and get out of the queue where they don't really want to group with anyone anyway.

For most dungeons, it wouldn't even require any huge overhaul and the one mechanic they need to add would apply even for all new dungeons they make. http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/eso-solo-story-mode-for-dungeons.html

GsusMcNutty

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Solo mode would solve a lot of things. All those people rushing for loot can rush in solo mode and get out of the queue where they don't really want to group with anyone anyway.

For most dungeons, it wouldn't even require any huge overhaul and the one mechanic they need to add would apply even for all new dungeons they make. http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/eso-solo-story-mode-for-dungeons.html

True, but MMOs can go down a slippery slope when you start giving players solo instances. The example of RuneScape comes to mind where once they started doing and promoting solo play. The world is populated, but feels so much more empty and no one really interacts.

It just wouldn't fit the mechanics and design of ESO. I think solo would be too much of a rift while a split might just be the trick and require no major overhaul aside from implementing the queue split. Nothing changes if the rusher goes antisocial as they get their own loot and that's that, but they get the chance to blossom and ask if they can get x item if no one wants it.

AlnilamE

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

Alright, pretty sure this has been said many times before but into the void I go.

and the solution is simple: Split queue at level 50.
"Wait, wait, long queues already and you want a split?!?" I can already hear it, sounds counter productive but, here we go.

First, the community is already split about what they want from dungeons. One wants to be able to enjoy dungeons and have a bit of a challenge, and tends to be under level 50. The other wants to farm and get faster exp, and tends to be above 50. Splitting the queue here makes sense. If someone under 50 wants to go through fast, they should get a guild to help them. The standard for requiring interaction and guilds should trickle down, not up. It's much harder to convince the new player that he should join a guild than the person leveling another toon.

Second, the tech is already implemented in Battlegrounds so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to imagine, from a developers standpoint, that it wouldn't be hard to create. BG is a whole other monster with queue time (though I, personally, haven't had an issue with queue), and isn't my area to speak on.

The thing is that the people who rush usually come from 3 groups:
- People above CP 160 farming gear
- People who want to run random dungeons on as many characters as possible to grind CP
- People who are leveling alts.

Your idea would shield you from the first two, but not from the third.

So you will encounter players with crafted gear, 810 CP assigned AND the scaled stats sub-50 characters get and they'll be able to rush just as well or even better.

That said, guildies I have that don't like to PUG usually duo dungeons, which is pretty easy in normal. You don't need to use the group finder to get to a dungeon. You can just travel to it and get started. (But of course, if you want the XP boost that the rushers want as well, you'll be missing out on that)

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Solo mode would solve a lot of things. All those people rushing for loot can rush in solo mode and get out of the queue where they don't really want to group with anyone anyway.

For most dungeons, it wouldn't even require any huge overhaul and the one mechanic they need to add would apply even for all new dungeons they make. http://gq-game-mods.blogspot.com/2020/07/eso-solo-story-mode-for-dungeons.html

The problem with a solo/story mode for dungeons is that different people want different things from it. Some people just want to be able to repeat the quest at their pace and enjoy the story, and they don't want any drops from it.

Others want to just farm gear by themselves, so they not only don't want to run the story, they want a vet version of it as well.

I think being able to repeat the quest solo once you have completed it normally once would be a nice thing, but a solo farm instance is not necessary.

GsusMcNutty

Ah, alt accounts. I actually did cover them in my first point.
The burden of guilding up shouldn't be on your beginner players. It should be on your experienced players.
But you are correct, nothing can really be done for high CP alts leveling. However, one cannot forget the psychology of a player. If your newbie sees a sub 50 alt, they are less likely to conclude that they are just here to blast through, and just appreciate the help. Also much easier to convince the experienced player "this is how it is" than the newbie.
Besides, 2/3 is pretty good. Can't win them all.

josiahva

People talk about solo mode...but why? As it is, you can ALREADY solo vet dungeons up to and including some vet DLC dungeons...and people still jump in the queue and run ahead and solo everything anyway. No, the solution is right there...vote to kick, if the group thinks a person is behaving appropriately, they wont be kicked....if they aren't, that is what the option is for. It solves ALL these queue related problems...use it.

GsusMcNutty

josiahva wrote: »

People talk about solo mode...but why? As it is, you can ALREADY solo vet dungeons up to and including some vet DLC dungeons...and people still jump in the queue and run ahead and solo everything anyway. No, the solution is right there...vote to kick, if the group thinks a person is behaving appropriately, they wont be kicked....if they aren't, that is what the option is for. It solves ALL these queue related problems...use it.

I do agree that solo mode is 100% not the answer. Hurts long term and alienates your community from each other.
Unfortunately vote to kick doesn't solve the queue issue at its source, it solves the problems after the queue. Splitting the queue at level 50 mitigates the different ideologies before you get grouped so you don't have to vote kick.

Ecileh71

There is at least one FOURTH kind of player out there (me):

CP810+ who wants to dungeon for the heck of it and is not interested in farming for drops/rushing through. I like the stuff, sure, but what I really want to do is kill monsters at a reasonable pace; usually to blow off steam.

Splitting the queue by level doesn't make sense to me, as you have types of players at all levels. If it were going to be split, I'd rather see it split by something like "speed run" vs "saunter".

AlnilamE

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

Ah, alt accounts. I actually did cover them in my first point.
The burden of guilding up shouldn't be on your beginner players. It should be on your experienced players.
But you are correct, nothing can really be done for high CP alts leveling. However, one cannot forget the psychology of a player. If your newbie sees a sub 50 alt, they are less likely to conclude that they are just here to blast through, and just appreciate the help. Also much easier to convince the experienced player "this is how it is" than the newbie.
Besides, 2/3 is pretty good. Can't win them all.

Why shouldn't beginner players be encouraged to find a guild?

But I wasn't talking about that. You mentioned playing with at least one friend, so you can go into the dungeons by yourselves if you'd like.

Ecileh71 wrote: »

There is at least one FOURTH kind of player out there (me):

CP810+ who wants to dungeon for the heck of it and is not interested in farming for drops/rushing through. I like the stuff, sure, but what I really want to do is kill monsters at a reasonable pace; usually to blow off steam.

Splitting the queue by level doesn't make sense to me, as you have types of players at all levels. If it were going to be split, I'd rather see it split by something like "speed run" vs "saunter".

That's me too. 1300+ CP. I main healers or tanks for dungeons, and I'm only really in a hurry if there is an Undaunted event. Other than that, I'll let the questers set the pace.

GsusMcNutty

Ecileh71 wrote: »

There is at least one FOURTH kind of player out there (me):

CP810+ who wants to dungeon for the heck of it and is not interested in farming for drops/rushing through. I like the stuff, sure, but what I really want to do is kill monsters at a reasonable pace; usually to blow off steam.

Splitting the queue by level doesn't make sense to me, as you have types of players at all levels. If it were going to be split, I'd rather see it split by something like "speed run" vs "saunter".

I would totally be on board with "sort by" but given ZOS reluctance in general with change for the better I would propose the level 50 split. It could even be at CP/ no CP so you have new players only. Hell, a matchmaker in general with options would the best solution and most ideal, but requires dev time. Creating the split at 50 could give them a good test bed on something bigger like that. I don't have the metrics for the queue now or I would be able to make a better assessment.

zvavi

There is a very base thing you got wrong. It is not only high levels that rush. And it is not only low levels that want to go slow.

Jeremy

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

Alright, pretty sure this has been said many times before but into the void I go.

I just recently got back into the game and brought a friend with me. We queue up for random queue and Fungal Grotto I. We get paired up with some at about our level and we go about clearing. A bit of a struggle, but being seasoned MMOers, we push through and have a good time while beating the dungeon in a reasonable amount of time. Was a pretty good experience so let's get the queue going again then, boom, a couple of CP God's and we go traipsing in the next one, so unmemorable I don't remember which it was, with no aspect of MMO to be found. Ok. This is a thing. I had to convince my friend that, oh it gets more interesting past 50 with vet dungeons and trials. Managed to, but me getting a few other friends after him to join truly did the convincing.

Anecdote over. Real talk time.

We've now been playing for a good week or so now, and in the meantime, I've perused the forums looking for something similar to my gripe and only came up with 2 generally close complaints that come close: "Dungeon Rushers" and "Fake Tanks." May be an odd correlation, but stick with me.

My anecdote above highlights how if feels with a rusher and other experiences have had people quit because the lower levels aren't fast enough. Pretty annoying but we've stuck with the dungeon even if it was our "Tank" that left and actually had a blast with the challenge of using what you got. The "Fake Tank" is very well know to be the product of queue times, had a 20m one yesterday, and end up being in the same camp as those when want to rush. Had a long queue time and just want to go through it quickly? Queue as a tank, run in and get it over with. Two problems all from queue times, and the solution is simple: Split queue at level 50.
"Wait, wait, long queues already and you want a split?!?" I can already hear it, sounds counter productive but, here we go.

First, the community is already split about what they want from dungeons. One wants to be able to enjoy dungeons and have a bit of a challenge, and tends to be under level 50. The other wants to farm and get faster exp, and tends to be above 50. Splitting the queue here makes sense. If someone under 50 wants to go through fast, they should get a guild to help them. The standard for requiring interaction and guilds should trickle down, not up. It's much harder to convince the new player that he should join a guild than the person leveling another toon.

Second, the tech is already implemented in Battlegrounds so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to imagine, from a developers standpoint, that it wouldn't be hard to create. BG is a whole other monster with queue time (though I, personally, haven't had an issue with queue), and isn't my area to speak on.

Third, tanks. Whoah, tank talk too? Oh boy. One cause of long queue times is the lack of tanks. I recently queued in as a tank and instant queue: "Great! Oh, high levels rushing the dungeon. Great. Hopefully I get a game at my level so I can practice." Probably a pretty common thought. How is the community supposed to get tanks interested in tanking when they have the DPS rushing in? How are they supposed to practice at early game aside from hoping that they get an At Level dungeon group? You don't get tanks interested, you don't have tanks for queue, which means longer queue, which means fake tanks. If you practice doing something wrong when it doesn't matter, you are gonna do it wrong when it does. Tank lives matter guys. If they have to practice wrong, they are going to do wrong, get a chorus of disapproval from their hardcore team, and quit. No tanks. Ad nauseum.

Fourth and final, challenging players at the start is a good way to keep someone interested. It's why we chase and stick with those hard to reach ladies and gentlemen over the easy ones (most of the time *looks at ex disapprovingly*). It's why we build massive games and play them at a grand scale. It is why I remember that first challenging time in a dungeon and not the crappy, easy next one. "Not because they are easy, but because they are hard." - Abe Roosevelt Kennedy 2027 I think. It's like playing Dark Souls but you are the Boss and you are fighting the player. Novel idea, but short lived.

Yes, the queue might suffer for a bit. Yes, I'm talking at the void with this one, but he queue will heal over time and get your solid player base, but not if isn't fixed first.
*Waits for void to echo back*
Edit: forgot obligatory TLDR for wall of text:
Fix dungeon queue to split at lvl 50 for long term health of the game. Like 4 birds, one stone.

You make a lot of good points, many of which I agree with.

But I don't think splitting the queue according to level is the right way to correct it. Many characters under level 50 (perhaps most) are alts being leveled up by experienced players who are going to be speeding through the dungeon regardless. So by splitting up the queue based on level you'll probably just end up with a longer queue time and still have the same problem of people charging ahead and rushing through dungeons.

GsusMcNutty

zvavi wrote: »

There is a very base thing you got wrong. It is not only high levels that rush. And it is not only low levels that want to go slow.

There are outliers of course and I would want them to have their experience, but the point of it is to get people more attracted to the game and build the player base better by ensuring that players can be at least slightly challenged and build their experience correctly. Above 50 you are going to have a good portion trying to grind gear and CP. However, under 50 you are going to absolutely have the newer players (excluding payed level) and you want them to have the best experience so they stay. You don't have to change the dungeons to be more difficult so that you can have all players in the dungeon be challenged, which is a lot of development hours. You can try something simple before putting in that time. Yes, ideally you would have much harder content appropriate for level, but that isn't their design at this point in time.

Ecileh71 wrote: »

There is at least one FOURTH kind of player out there (me):

CP810+ who wants to dungeon for the heck of it and is not interested in farming for drops/rushing through. I like the stuff, sure, but what I really want to do is kill monsters at a reasonable pace; usually to blow off steam.

Splitting the queue by level doesn't make sense to me, as you have types of players at all levels. If it were going to be split, I'd rather see it split by something like "speed run" vs "saunter".

This is a good middle ground. I would back this idea, but I could imagine ZOS trying something like the 50 split first to see if that is a good solution before committing.

It could even be put forward to do away with a matchmaker entirely and do it old school. Player interaction (Dun Dun DAAAAAA). First completed dungeon of the day gets you your bonus no matter where.

zvavi

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

There is a very base thing you got wrong. It is not only high levels that rush. And it is not only low levels that want to go slow.

There are outliers of course and I would want them to have their experience, but the point of it is to get people more attracted to the game and build the player base better by ensuring that players can be at least slightly challenged and build their experience correctly.

In that case I am even more against it. Groups like that need someone experienced to pull the reins in case of 2 dds with white 20 levels ago gear... What they need for proper experience is easier way to get set gear...and proper role tutorial. Role tutorial is the answer to fake tanks.

GsusMcNutty

Jeremy wrote: »

You make a lot of good points, many of which I agree with.

But I don't think splitting the queue according to level is the right way to correct it. Many characters under level 50 (perhaps most) are alts being leveled up by experienced players who are going to be speeding through the dungeon regardless. So by splitting up the queue based on level you'll probably just end up with a longer queue time and still have the same problem of people charging ahead and rushing through dungeons.

Thanks!

And you are right, alts would be left out of this solution and it would be put to an assumption that they would have a guild or a group to play it with, which is wrong in its own sense. And as some have pointed out the normal dungeons are easy enough for two people to run, which is good in its own sense. But it seems their design of the normal dungeons is geared toward being difficult for only the newer players, but you cant make the split at CP/ no CP because unless you have a very healthy influx of new players, it would make the queue bad for them which would kill your flow of new players and be counterproductive.
Level 50 is the point I felt was good since you have all your new players and all your alt experienced players, where one could still guide the other, but not necessarily overtake. Of course you have the players who just want to speed through, optimal speed, Deja Vu style, but you at least have a lowered chance since the more experienced players would know that there is where slow play will more than likely happen and are more likely to have a crutch of a guild to back their power leveling and those who just want to leisurely run a dungeon can just make an alt and play.
This is why I say the burden of needing to guild up to play the game should not be on the newer players.

Never gonna be a perfect solution, but you at least give newer players a chance to learn.

And again, I wouldn't even mind not having a matchmaker and having to find a group in chat. Bonus given to completing the first dungeon of the day no matter where. At least you give all the power to the players with this.

Jeremy

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You make a lot of good points, many of which I agree with.

But I don't think splitting the queue according to level is the right way to correct it. Many characters under level 50 (perhaps most) are alts being leveled up by experienced players who are going to be speeding through the dungeon regardless. So by splitting up the queue based on level you'll probably just end up with a longer queue time and still have the same problem of people charging ahead and rushing through dungeons.

Thanks!

And you are right, alts would be left out of this solution and it would be put to an assumption that they would have a guild or a group to play it with, which is wrong in its own sense. And as some have pointed out the normal dungeons are easy enough for two people to run, which is good in its own sense. But it seems their design of the normal dungeons is geared toward being difficult for only the newer players, but you cant make the split at CP/ no CP because unless you have a very healthy influx of new players, it would make the queue bad for them which would kill your flow of new players and be counterproductive.
Level 50 is the point I felt was good since you have all your new players and all your alt experienced players, where one could still guide the other, but not necessarily overtake. Of course you have the players who just want to speed through, optimal speed, Deja Vu style, but you at least have a lowered chance since the more experienced players would that there is where slow play will more than likely happen and are more likely to have a crutch of a guild to back their power leveling and those who just want to leisurely run a dungeon can just make an alt and play.
This is why I say the burden of needing to guild up to play the game should not be on the newer players.

Never gonna be a perfect solution, but you at least give newer players a chance to learn.

And again, I wouldn't even mind not having a matchmaker and having to find a group in chat. Bonus given to completing the first dungeon of the day no matter where. At least you give all the power to the players with this.

Hrm, maybe you're right. There is no denying the pre 50 battleground experience for example is a world apart from the post 50 one. So maybe it would make more of a difference than I originally thought.

I think you've won me over. I say give it a try.

kickons

I don’t think any full timer wants to take their time in an FG1 run, at any level. I personally couldn’t think of anything worse...

I’ve seen some guilds out there who do group runs to ‘take their time’ with dungeon runs to experience the dialogue etc.

I think it’s a minority of players who’d actually want that, and realistically would ruin dungeons for the majority if they’re forced to endure longer than needed dungeons. Just like battlegrounds have been ruined by taking out group queue to accommodate for the minority.

Everest_Lionheart

I generally don’t queue new toons until they hit gear cap. Why? Because if someone in the group is looking for a specific drop I am probably going to give it to them. I’ve thought of bringing some of my alts along to level them up faster because with under 50 adjustments and my crafted gear I actually hit harder than people caught in the CP10-150 zone.

It’s crazy just how much of a power boost you get from 1-49 with your CP already applied. I was hitting crits of 53K on a new stamblade this week wearing Hundings and Ancient Dragonguard in training traits at Lv10. Of course diminishing returns being what they are the same toon with the same skill maxed leveled wearing the same sets at Lv35 For player and equipment) was only hitting crits at 41K.

The game does some funny things in the background like this. So you see a low level alt with CP and crafted gear can likely carry a group in the hands of an experienced player. I’m not sure what separating the queues would accomplish.

GsusMcNutty

kickons wrote: »

I don’t think any full timer wants to take their time in an FG1 run, at any level. I personally couldn’t think of anything worse...

I’ve seen some guilds out there who do group runs to ‘take their time’ with dungeon runs to experience the dialogue etc.

I think it’s a minority of players who’d actually want that, and realistically would ruin dungeons for the majority if they’re forced to endure longer than needed dungeons. Just like battlegrounds have been ruined by taking out group queue to accommodate for the minority.

Good point, time is a valuable commodity when it comes to MMOs. But time to a new player and time to a vet are two different perspectives. Yes, your vet could blast through 5 dungeons in the time it takes for a newbie to do 1 (Hyperbole), but a new player's time is better spent learning the game properly, including failing, to get gud. I would take the newbie who crawled their way through all the dungeons at their pace and learned the game properly than the person being escorted and not learning the game and their class properly.
Vet's time is better spent building their CP, obtaining better gear, and leveling Alts. The last one is tricky because you would have them in the below 50 split and you are definitely right that they don't wanna spend their time on frivolous dungeons and groups. I'll go back to this idea:

Ecileh71 wrote: »

There is at least one FOURTH kind of player out there (me):

CP810+ who wants to dungeon for the heck of it and is not interested in farming for drops/rushing through. I like the stuff, sure, but what I really want to do is kill monsters at a reasonable pace; usually to blow off steam.

Splitting the queue by level doesn't make sense to me, as you have types of players at all levels. If it were going to be split, I'd rather see it split by something like "speed run" vs "saunter".

and expound upon if the 50 split was implemented, add this option to only CP accounts so new players HAVE to build their way up and learn by doing, thus increasing the quality of newer players.

idk

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

GsusMcNutty

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

idk

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

Yet it does not stand to reason.

First of all, there is no reason to expect people would use the queue as described. People tend to go for whatever is the shortest queue. If people find one of the queues tends to be longer than the other they will use the quicker picker-upper. That is how life often works.

Hence, we are effectively back to one queue.

Second, when we use the GF queue to form a group for us we are very specifically asking for a random group which means we are giving up control concerning the type of players we are grouped with. That is a choice. For anyone who does not like that choice, you can you the queue in the manner many players do, form your group (best from guilds), and then queue. It works extremely well, is easy, and fast. Especially if you are in a decent group.

AlnilamE

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

There is a very base thing you got wrong. It is not only high levels that rush. And it is not only low levels that want to go slow.

There are outliers of course and I would want them to have their experience, but the point of it is to get people more attracted to the game and build the player base better by ensuring that players can be at least slightly challenged and build their experience correctly. Above 50 you are going to have a good portion trying to grind gear and CP. However, under 50 you are going to absolutely have the newer players (excluding payed level) and you want them to have the best experience so they stay. You don't have to change the dungeons to be more difficult so that you can have all players in the dungeon be challenged, which is a lot of development hours. You can try something simple before putting in that time. Yes, ideally you would have much harder content appropriate for level, but that isn't their design at this point in time.

Ecileh71 wrote: »

There is at least one FOURTH kind of player out there (me):

CP810+ who wants to dungeon for the heck of it and is not interested in farming for drops/rushing through. I like the stuff, sure, but what I really want to do is kill monsters at a reasonable pace; usually to blow off steam.

Splitting the queue by level doesn't make sense to me, as you have types of players at all levels. If it were going to be split, I'd rather see it split by something like "speed run" vs "saunter".

This is a good middle ground. I would back this idea, but I could imagine ZOS trying something like the 50 split first to see if that is a good solution before committing.

It could even be put forward to do away with a matchmaker entirely and do it old school. Player interaction (Dun Dun DAAAAAA). First completed dungeon of the day gets you your bonus no matter where.

You can queue for a random dungeon with a full group, so nothing is stopping you from interacting with other players in zone to find other people that meet your requirements and then queueing for a random.

The point of the random dungeon bonus is to have people to fill groups that are trying to complete a *specific* dungeon.

When I queue for a random, I am a hired sword (or staff) and I follow the lead of whoever queued for that particular dungeon.

Making me have to choose between queues and consequently increase my wait time would not encourage me to run more PUGs. On the contrary. I'd group with guildies.

GsusMcNutty

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

Yet it does not stand to reason.

First of all, there is no reason to expect people would use the queue as described. People tend to go for whatever is the shortest queue. If people find one of the queues tends to be longer than the other they will use the quicker picker-upper. That is how life often works.

Hence, we are effectively back to one queue.

Second, when we use the GF queue to form a group for us we are very specifically asking for a random group which means we are giving up control concerning the type of players we are grouped with. That is a choice. For anyone who does not like that choice, you can you the queue in the manner many players do, form your group (best from guilds), and then queue. It works extremely well, is easy, and fast. Especially if you are in a decent group.

Hence the level 50 change to start.
Even if you make the "right queue" available, of course you get people to game the system. As someone pointed out, that is why we have a vote kick. As for players giving up choice, sure, but to the degree of have at least a modicum of fun and learn a game properly or be brought along for the ride and have an experience where you might as well just wait at the start of the dungeon is a pretty big disparity in gameplay. Closing that gap would be the aim of this proposed change.

idk

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

Yet it does not stand to reason.

First of all, there is no reason to expect people would use the queue as described. People tend to go for whatever is the shortest queue. If people find one of the queues tends to be longer than the other they will use the quicker picker-upper. That is how life often works.

Hence, we are effectively back to one queue.

Second, when we use the GF queue to form a group for us we are very specifically asking for a random group which means we are giving up control concerning the type of players we are grouped with. That is a choice. For anyone who does not like that choice, you can you the queue in the manner many players do, form your group (best from guilds), and then queue. It works extremely well, is easy, and fast. Especially if you are in a decent group.

Hence the level 50 change to start.
Even if you make the "right queue" available, of course you get people to game the system. As someone pointed out, that is why we have a vote kick. As for players giving up choice, sure, but to the degree of have at least a modicum of fun and learn a game properly or be brought along for the ride and have an experience where you might as well just wait at the start of the dungeon is a pretty big disparity in gameplay. Closing that gap would be the aim of this proposed change.

There is nothing in what was proposed in the OP that would ensure that the experience presented in the OP does not happen in any of the proposed queues. The experience has nothing to do with CP level or even character level.

Oh, and there is also no guarantee of even a modicum of fun when having the game find the players and form the group for you. However, if you do form your own group you will have a better chance of enjoying the run as you are in control of who joins the group. It is why most decent players form their own group instead of dealing with the GF. It is why a great many decent tanks avoid the GF at all costs.

So again, it is a choice between having a truly random group or taking control and forming the group yourself.

Either way, enjoy the game.

GsusMcNutty

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

Yet it does not stand to reason.

First of all, there is no reason to expect people would use the queue as described. People tend to go for whatever is the shortest queue. If people find one of the queues tends to be longer than the other they will use the quicker picker-upper. That is how life often works.

Hence, we are effectively back to one queue.

Second, when we use the GF queue to form a group for us we are very specifically asking for a random group which means we are giving up control concerning the type of players we are grouped with. That is a choice. For anyone who does not like that choice, you can you the queue in the manner many players do, form your group (best from guilds), and then queue. It works extremely well, is easy, and fast. Especially if you are in a decent group.

Hence the level 50 change to start.
Even if you make the "right queue" available, of course you get people to game the system. As someone pointed out, that is why we have a vote kick. As for players giving up choice, sure, but to the degree of have at least a modicum of fun and learn a game properly or be brought along for the ride and have an experience where you might as well just wait at the start of the dungeon is a pretty big disparity in gameplay. Closing that gap would be the aim of this proposed change.

There is nothing in what was proposed in the OP that would ensure that the experience presented in the OP does not happen in any of the proposed queues. The experience has nothing to do with CP level or even character level.

Oh, and there is also no guarantee of even a modicum of fun when having the game find the players and form the group for you. However, if you do form your own group you will have a better chance of enjoying the run as you are in control of who joins the group. It is why most decent players form their own group instead of dealing with the GF. It is why a great many decent tanks avoid the GF at all costs.

So again, it is a choice between having a truly random group or taking control and forming the group yourself.

Either way, enjoy the game.

It would be the same split as battlegrounds. Either you are or are not above level 50 there is no choice in that. At least to start, any other described GF was an extra idea that was good.

I am enjoying the game for what its worth, though I was about to have to find a different one because of what happened, taking around 5ish players with me. Great experience in the dungeon, then do nothing in the dungeon after dungeon. My friends were very hesitant to join in after that since they wanted to actually play the game. I'm just not sure that the average player coming in to play for the first time wants to be carried to the end of a dungeon while doing nothing. It was very disheartening, even to me as the one trying to sell the game. I just think there is a much better way of handling the queue for a random player since they could be the next one trying to get their small group of friends into the game and stop the first time they try a random dungeon.
The queue being split at 50 gives you less of a chance that you get in with all but you being high leveled and sitting back and doing nothing. You would at least have the ability, or at least a better chance, as a new player, to have an experience with the game that will keep you coming back, because it may not seem it to a high level player, but the game is actually pretty fun when you are experiencing one of the dungeon for the first time. I'm fairly certain that most players (non absolute and myself included) would rather play the game than sit back and do nothing. The community doesn't grow if it can't hold on to the players interested.

idk

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

Yet it does not stand to reason.

First of all, there is no reason to expect people would use the queue as described. People tend to go for whatever is the shortest queue. If people find one of the queues tends to be longer than the other they will use the quicker picker-upper. That is how life often works.

Hence, we are effectively back to one queue.

Second, when we use the GF queue to form a group for us we are very specifically asking for a random group which means we are giving up control concerning the type of players we are grouped with. That is a choice. For anyone who does not like that choice, you can you the queue in the manner many players do, form your group (best from guilds), and then queue. It works extremely well, is easy, and fast. Especially if you are in a decent group.

Hence the level 50 change to start.
Even if you make the "right queue" available, of course you get people to game the system. As someone pointed out, that is why we have a vote kick. As for players giving up choice, sure, but to the degree of have at least a modicum of fun and learn a game properly or be brought along for the ride and have an experience where you might as well just wait at the start of the dungeon is a pretty big disparity in gameplay. Closing that gap would be the aim of this proposed change.

There is nothing in what was proposed in the OP that would ensure that the experience presented in the OP does not happen in any of the proposed queues. The experience has nothing to do with CP level or even character level.

Oh, and there is also no guarantee of even a modicum of fun when having the game find the players and form the group for you. However, if you do form your own group you will have a better chance of enjoying the run as you are in control of who joins the group. It is why most decent players form their own group instead of dealing with the GF. It is why a great many decent tanks avoid the GF at all costs.

So again, it is a choice between having a truly random group or taking control and forming the group yourself.

Either way, enjoy the game.

It would be the same split as battlegrounds. Either you are or are not above level 50 there is no choice in that. At least to start, any other described GF was an extra idea that was good.

I am enjoying the game for what its worth, though I was about to have to find a different one because of what happened, taking around 5ish players with me. Great experience in the dungeon, then do nothing in the dungeon after dungeon. My friends were very hesitant to join in after that since they wanted to actually play the game. I'm just not sure that the average player coming in to play for the first time wants to be carried to the end of a dungeon while doing nothing. It was very disheartening, even to me as the one trying to sell the game. I just think there is a much better way of handling the queue for a random player since they could be the next one trying to get their small group of friends into the game and stop the first time they try a random dungeon.
The queue being split at 50 gives you less of a chance that you get in with all but you being high leveled and sitting back and doing nothing. You would at least have the ability, or at least a better chance, as a new player, to have an experience with the game that will keep you coming back, because it may not seem it to a high level player, but the game is actually pretty fun when you are experiencing one of the dungeon for the first time.

I'm fairly certain that most players (non absolute and myself included) would rather play the game than sit back and do nothing. The community doesn't grow if it can't hold on to the players interested.

First of all, theme park MMORPGs like ESO tend to split PvP between end-game characters and characters below the end-game level. They tend not to do that with PvE dungeons as there is already a minimum requirement for each instance.

Second, as I already stated, such an idea would do nothing to solve the issue you have used as a reason and justification for the change. Players that run through dungeons will do the same on lowbie characters, and they could care less what the rest of the group thinks. It is why the "form your own group" is such a fantastic idea that is successfully used every day by a great many players.

Fourth, Zos is not interested in creating two queues for BGs for solo queue and group queue, which is a suggestion that has received so much more attention than having a separate dungeon queue for sub-50 players.

Fifth, Zos will not force sub-50 players to only be able to queue up and do dungeons with only sub-50 players. We know this because it is the premise of One Tamriel that we can all quest together in any zone regardless of faction or character level. So even if Zos did create a second, optional queue, for only sub-50 players most will go with the main queue since it will be a faster pop. That will leave the new queue rather long wait times for groups to form because it is normal human nature to go for the shorter line.

The point we can both agree on is the second to last sentence. That most players would rather play the game than sit back and do nothing. It is why so many get up and form their own group. We make it happen.

zvavi

I tend to agree with @idk very much, I am currently leveling a character, and I am getting many fake rusher tanks, most (if not all) of them are not CP level. So I just can't fathom how your idea will fix that...

GsusMcNutty

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

GsusMcNutty wrote: »

idk wrote: »

The answer to OP's question is no. It would make queues longer. Also, Cp level is irrelevant. I have seen a low CP player rush ahead pulling the next group, even bosses, before the tank and anyone else gets there. Interestingly they also complain when the tank is not tanking (because they are not in the room yet).

As always, if you want a specific group makeup then it is best to form your own group and it is very easy to do. When queuing for random members to fill the rest of one's party one is asking for very random members. It really is that simple

Queues might go longer, but if the community has such a negative view on queues already with "Fake Tanks" and "Rushers," it does stand to reason that they might not increase too. If your community feels like they can get what they want out of queues, you might have more people return to them, shortening queue times. The above 50 can smash normal dungeons without worry of "fake tanking" since they could finish them regardless of slotting (I've seen otherwise but there is a census of this always being true in this thread). It's the below 50 new players that need some TLC by giving them more of a chance to just play the game. You want them attracted to the game.

Yet it does not stand to reason.

First of all, there is no reason to expect people would use the queue as described. People tend to go for whatever is the shortest queue. If people find one of the queues tends to be longer than the other they will use the quicker picker-upper. That is how life often works.

Hence, we are effectively back to one queue.

Second, when we use the GF queue to form a group for us we are very specifically asking for a random group which means we are giving up control concerning the type of players we are grouped with. That is a choice. For anyone who does not like that choice, you can you the queue in the manner many players do, form your group (best from guilds), and then queue. It works extremely well, is easy, and fast. Especially if you are in a decent group.

Hence the level 50 change to start.
Even if you make the "right queue" available, of course you get people to game the system. As someone pointed out, that is why we have a vote kick. As for players giving up choice, sure, but to the degree of have at least a modicum of fun and learn a game properly or be brought along for the ride and have an experience where you might as well just wait at the start of the dungeon is a pretty big disparity in gameplay. Closing that gap would be the aim of this proposed change.

There is nothing in what was proposed in the OP that would ensure that the experience presented in the OP does not happen in any of the proposed queues. The experience has nothing to do with CP level or even character level.

Oh, and there is also no guarantee of even a modicum of fun when having the game find the players and form the group for you. However, if you do form your own group you will have a better chance of enjoying the run as you are in control of who joins the group. It is why most decent players form their own group instead of dealing with the GF. It is why a great many decent tanks avoid the GF at all costs.

So again, it is a choice between having a truly random group or taking control and forming the group yourself.

Either way, enjoy the game.

It would be the same split as battlegrounds. Either you are or are not above level 50 there is no choice in that. At least to start, any other described GF was an extra idea that was good.

I am enjoying the game for what its worth, though I was about to have to find a different one because of what happened, taking around 5ish players with me. Great experience in the dungeon, then do nothing in the dungeon after dungeon. My friends were very hesitant to join in after that since they wanted to actually play the game. I'm just not sure that the average player coming in to play for the first time wants to be carried to the end of a dungeon while doing nothing. It was very disheartening, even to me as the one trying to sell the game. I just think there is a much better way of handling the queue for a random player since they could be the next one trying to get their small group of friends into the game and stop the first time they try a random dungeon.
The queue being split at 50 gives you less of a chance that you get in with all but you being high leveled and sitting back and doing nothing. You would at least have the ability, or at least a better chance, as a new player, to have an experience with the game that will keep you coming back, because it may not seem it to a high level player, but the game is actually pretty fun when you are experiencing one of the dungeon for the first time.

I'm fairly certain that most players (non absolute and myself included) would rather play the game than sit back and do nothing. The community doesn't grow if it can't hold on to the players interested.

First of all, theme park MMORPGs like ESO tend to split PvP between end-game characters and characters below the end-game level. They tend not to do that with PvE dungeons as there is already a minimum requirement for each instance.

Second, as I already stated, such an idea would do nothing to solve the issue you have used as a reason and justification for the change. Players that run through dungeons will do the same on lowbie characters, and they could care less what the rest of the group thinks. It is why the "form your own group" is such a fantastic idea that is successfully used every day by a great many players.

Fourth, Zos is not interested in creating two queues for BGs for solo queue and group queue, which is a suggestion that has received so much more attention than having a separate dungeon queue for sub-50 players.

Fifth, Zos will not force sub-50 players to only be able to queue up and do dungeons with only sub-50 players. We know this because it is the premise of One Tamriel that we can all quest together in any zone regardless of faction or character level. So even if Zos did create a second, optional queue, for only sub-50 players most will go with the main queue since it will be a faster pop. That will leave the new queue rather long wait times for groups to form because it is normal human nature to go for the shorter line.

The point we can both agree on is the second to last sentence. That most players would rather play the game than sit back and do nothing. It is why so many get up and form their own group. We make it happen.

I am sorry to have offended. I very obviously don't know anything about the game. I apologize for hopping into a forum and voicing my concern that an entire group of people don't want to play the game since they have to sit back and go along for the ride if they try and pub. I am completely open to a better suggestion, but I do offer up that if they offer a pub queue, they should have considered newer players.

I do see your point. ZOS is gonna do what ZOS is gonna do. But to say that my argument has no merit and no justifications is very odd. I will point to "Third Tanks" and "Fourth and Final" in the OP.

If you want to keep the game the way it is that is fine as well. You've definitely been in the game much longer. I am but a new set of eyes on a problem that has obviously persisted for quite some time. With that, I would like to ask, as a bit of a thought experiment, Why not just have "Find your own group" as standard and explicitly state it? Why not just do away with the queue entirely? It does seem kind of pointless if you really should just find your own group anyway. You could just offer the free exp boost to your first dungeon complete of the day so you have no need for one. Having to go to that zone to get to the dungeon so you can throw your LFG message in zone would promote pointed/guided exploration at the very least, which I know is against the whole "go out and quest wherever you want!" but would be a boon for a new player since that is what they would expect from the start to get in with dungeons.
If anything stating that "Completing a Random Normal or a Random Veteran Dungeon will give you bonus rewards. For optimal experience, try preforming a group before entering queue as this will put you with players that may be higher than your level/skill," would set the right expectations out there.

idk

@GsusMcNutty

You have not offended anyone. When creating a thread and proposing an idea that is asking for feedback which is what I provided. It is good to share ideas as Zos has found some gems that players proposed.

I understand the bad experience you had in that dungeon is one you do not want to repeat. However, I was only pointing out reasons why the suggestion would not have the desired effect and more likely to have a negative impact on the game.

More importantly, I do truly suggest forming your own group. I think it is best for everyone to find a good active guild that fits them and they fit to find people to run content with. We tend to find people more forgiving of our attempts to learn and players that are similar interests when we run with players we are familiar with. You will likely get more out of the game in doing so.

GsusMcNutty

idk wrote: »

@GsusMcNutty

You have not offended anyone. When creating a thread and proposing an idea that is asking for feedback which is what I provided. It is good to share ideas as Zos has found some gems that players proposed.

I understand the bad experience you had in that dungeon is one you do not want to repeat. However, I was only pointing out reasons why the suggestion would not have the desired effect and more likely to have a negative impact on the game.

More importantly, I do truly suggest forming your own group. I think it is best for everyone to find a good active guild that fits them and they fit to find people to run content with. We tend to find people more forgiving of our attempts to learn and players that are similar interests when we run with players we are familiar with. You will likely get more out of the game in doing so.

Feedback is good, and I am open to it. If there is any way you can suggest to improve the idea I would like to take it in and improve this so that something that is causing a very common negative experience can be fixed or have ideas thrown around at the very least.
I have since been able to get a total of 7 people to get the game, log in, and play. If it weren't for the terrible experience of dungeon queue, I may have been able to get another 2 or so in, almost enough for trials at endgame.