Harrowstorms and the problem with mechanics

CaffeinatedMayhem

No, not the Harrowstorm mechanics themselves, the fact that most players refuse to do mechanics.

How many times have you run up to a Harrowstorm and found 5-6 people fighting 4 bosses... with 3 pikes and no one killing them? For me, that's pretty common. Even when muliple players are calling out to kill the pikes, in both say and zone, no one switches from bosses to pikes. New players come up and start their lvl 10 templar jabs on a random WW add, not even a boss. (or worse, the people who only light/heavy attack adds).

I don't expect the average player to bring 100k, 50k, or even 25k to a fight. Most overworld event have less than 100k GROUP DPS, which is actually fine. I've completed a Harrowstorm with 0 bosses spawning, with 6 people and group DPS of 25k. How? 4-5 people threw everything at the same pike, 1-2 would run around killing the ghosts.

This issue seems related to why most PUGs cannot clear DLC dungeons, even on normal. Refusal to do the mechanics. Most dungeons, even DLC dungeons, can be completed with ridiculously low group DPS (think 15-25k GROUP), as long as the group does the mechanics and everyone can stay alive. Yes, there are dungeons with DPS checks, obviously I'm not including those.

What does it take for players to actually do mechanics? I just finished a Harrowstorm that spawned as many bosses as there were players, because 7/10 were not on the pikes. When I'm tanking and realize the group does not know mechanics, I try to teach them. The general result is 4-5 group wipes until everyone actually does the mechanic and then poof! fight goes quickly and cleanly.

Why are players so resistant to mechanics? Why is "bring the adds into the cleave" so hard to teach? ESO is my first MMO, but I took the time to learn how to work with the game, not try to force "standing still and hit whatever" on a game that emphasizes target prioritization, and moving out of the #$*&% red!

supersonic_kitten

The problem is that the game is really bad at explaining mechanics. Say I see a Harrowstorm for the first time. Never heard of it, going in completely blind. How am I supposed to know I gotta destroy pikes? All I'm seeing is a bunch of players fighting mobs.
Even the Harrowstorm in the Greymoor tutorial is like... Well, first, you gotta play the tutorial. If you're at max characters by the time a new dlc comes out, you're out of luck. But okay, you create a new character and you play through it. Would it kill anyone in the dev team to just... make a tutorial tip that says like PAY ATTENTION THERE ARE MORE HARROWSTORMS LIKE THIS AROUND THE AREA AND THIS IS HOW YOU KILL THEM.
Same stuff with dungeons and the like. If you go into a new dungeon and no one in the group knows the mechanics, well, you're on your own, go watch YouTube or read a guide because the game won't help you.
And no I'm not advocating for extreme levels of handholding, but an _option_ to have advanced tutorials would be nice.

redgreensunset

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

The problem is that the game is really bad at explaining mechanics. Say I see a Harrowstorm for the first time. Never heard of it, going in completely blind. How am I supposed to know I gotta destroy pikes? All I'm seeing is a bunch of players fighting mobs.
Even the Harrowstorm in the Greymoor tutorial is like... Well, first, you gotta play the tutorial. If you're at max characters by the time a new dlc comes out, you're out of luck. But okay, you create a new character and you play through it. Would it kill anyone in the dev team to just... make a tutorial tip that says like PAY ATTENTION THERE ARE MORE HARROWSTORMS LIKE THIS AROUND THE AREA AND THIS IS HOW YOU KILL THEM.
Same stuff with dungeons and the like. If you go into a new dungeon and no one in the group knows the mechanics, well, you're on your own, go watch YouTube or read a guide because the game won't help you.
And no I'm not advocating for extreme levels of handholding, but an _option_ to have advanced tutorials would be nice.

This right here. I've played few by now because of the daily and even now I'm not quite sure of the order. Also ignoring the bosses is going to get low level player and glass canons killed, especially if there's no tank around to hold them which there often isn't.

Ratinira

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

ESO is my first MMO, but I took the time to learn how to work with the game, not try to force "standing still and hit whatever" on a game that emphasizes target prioritization, and moving out of the #$*&% red!

Because many don't take that time. They don't want to look for information and/or learn.
During free week a lot of noobs joined our guild. They were asking dozens of questions. Questions that take 5 sec to google the guide that will explain half of the topic. But they won't spend 5 sec to google and 5 min to read. They'll spend time asking question after question after question...
I don't understand that. I ask questions only if I looked for an information but couldn't found it. Or if I don't know how to find it.
Looks like it's just different ways of playing...

supersonic_kitten

Ratinira wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

ESO is my first MMO, but I took the time to learn how to work with the game, not try to force "standing still and hit whatever" on a game that emphasizes target prioritization, and moving out of the #$*&% red!

Because many don't take that time. They don't want to look for information and/or learn.
During free week a lot of noobs joined our guild. They were asking dozens of questions. Questions that take 5 sec to google the guide that will explain half of the topic. But they won't spend 5 sec to google and 5 min to read. They'll spend time asking question after question after question...
I don't understand that. I ask questions only if I looked for an information but couldn't found it. Or if I don't know how to find it.
Looks like it's just different ways of playing...

Wow, that's very friendly and welcoming to new players. Why talk at all if you can just google anything?

CaffeinatedMayhem

redgreensunset wrote: »

This right here. I've played few by now because of the daily and even now I'm not quite sure of the order. Also ignoring the bosses is going to get low level player and glass canons killed, especially if there's no tank around to hold them which there often isn't.

Well, there isn't an order. The next Harrowstorm site is random, often can be the same one that just went down. That's why people have to call them out in zone chat. At least ZOS made the next HS spawn immediately after 1 goes down, but still doesn't solve the problem of people sitting at one site for 30 mins wondering why it didn't come up.

Even max level tanks get killed, especially by the fetching shrikes. You don't need a tank, just rez in place and keep fighting. Most overworld events aren't designed for trinity gameplay. Sure a tank can mostly keep a boss facing away, but those are "elite" monsters that are not guaranteed to obey taunt.

Edit: Harrowstorms had the opportunity to be a great lesson in "move out of the red'... but there's so much red, plus purple/blue that doesn't really show up well, that new players don't realize they can avoid damage by MOVING. Not even roll dodge, just stepping out of the red. It's a really important skill to have for all game content, but many players never learn until they join a trials guild.

Ratinira

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

ESO is my first MMO, but I took the time to learn how to work with the game, not try to force "standing still and hit whatever" on a game that emphasizes target prioritization, and moving out of the #$*&% red!

Because many don't take that time. They don't want to look for information and/or learn.
During free week a lot of noobs joined our guild. They were asking dozens of questions. Questions that take 5 sec to google the guide that will explain half of the topic. But they won't spend 5 sec to google and 5 min to read. They'll spend time asking question after question after question...
I don't understand that. I ask questions only if I looked for an information but couldn't found it. Or if I don't know how to find it.
Looks like it's just different ways of playing...

Wow, that's very friendly and welcoming to new players. Why talk at all if you can just google anything?

I don't really consider asking 10 question on "how to craft" topic a real "talking"...
Or questions like "I just installed the game, tell me how to play".
Also I usually consider that if *I* dont bother to spend 5 sec to find an answer that interests *me* why I should belive that anyone else must spend *their* time explaining things that I don't bother to spend time on?
Just the different way of seeing that, I presume

r3turn2s3nd3r

You would be surprised to know exactly how many people play in first person and simply cannot see anything other than what's in front of them let alone mechanics. My guess is half of them are in first person for immersion purposes or simply don't know how to go to third person.

Had a max cp person trying for skin in cradle of shadows. Kept dying to standing in red and we asked why they weren't moving out of it. Said they couldn't see it, so on an off chance we asked if they were in third person. They were not.

Fur_like_snow

The mechanics are cheap. I have enemy ground AoE set to an obnoxious color of green as to contrast with the red storm. But sometimes the shrike will still one shot me with a ground AoE that i cant see and my recap is like you got hit 3 times for 24k ez clap. But sometimes I’ll check my combat log and some of the enemy skills are hitting for like 100 damage? What’s the point? The blood knight scion can one shot as well with his ground AoE that’s difficult to see and instant. If you’re a noob and ur stats are bad than even more things are gonna feel like one shots. I can solo a storm with my magplar but to many shrike spawns might still get me.

redspecter23

If the mechanics aren't spelled out and basically thrown right in their faces, many players will ignore them. They just aren't aware of what they are. Most times, players come up to a harrowstorm, kill a few things and then get a completion a couple minutes later. That is the extent of their knowledge of that fight. Show up. Swing a few times. Loot at the end.

There is no good way to explain mechanics to players in that exact moment. If they can't see why they fail with their own eyes, then they did just fine. If they do fail? They will just say they didn't have enough people to complete it (which from their perspective is true).

Vevvev

Well the Harrowstorm witches do talk about defending their pikes during the actual Harrowstorm itself. Then again I can see new players getting distracted and not taking the time to listen to the queues about what they should be doing. This is why I end up bringing a stun with me to every single Harrowstorm. I stun the ghosts so I don't have to worry about them anymore before burning the pikes down as the others keep the bosses they accidentally spawned from attacking me.

Jeremy

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

The problem is that the game is really bad at explaining mechanics. Say I see a Harrowstorm for the first time. Never heard of it, going in completely blind. How am I supposed to know I gotta destroy pikes? All I'm seeing is a bunch of players fighting mobs.
Even the Harrowstorm in the Greymoor tutorial is like... Well, first, you gotta play the tutorial. If you're at max characters by the time a new dlc comes out, you're out of luck. But okay, you create a new character and you play through it. Would it kill anyone in the dev team to just... make a tutorial tip that says like PAY ATTENTION THERE ARE MORE HARROWSTORMS LIKE THIS AROUND THE AREA AND THIS IS HOW YOU KILL THEM.
Same stuff with dungeons and the like. If you go into a new dungeon and no one in the group knows the mechanics, well, you're on your own, go watch YouTube or read a guide because the game won't help you.
And no I'm not advocating for extreme levels of handholding, but an _option_ to have advanced tutorials would be nice.

I still don't even know what the "mechanics" on those things are.

Some people say you're suppose to stun the ghosts to keep them from getting to the pikes. Others say it doesn't matter. Then there are those red pools ping ponging all over the place that seem to just one shot you out of the blue sometimes. Why I haven't an idea.

Harrowstorms look cool. But that's really where my praise for them ends. I much preferred the dragon fights from Elsweyr. Those were challenging but at the same time easy to understand and fun to play. It wasn't just chaos with a a strobe light of occasional doom dancing all over the battlefield as an endless wave of enemies and bosses come from all directions. So I can't fault players for not understanding the mechanics. I don't know what they are either.

Vevvev

Jeremy wrote: »

Some people say you're suppose to stun the ghosts to keep them from getting to the pikes. Others say it doesn't matter. Then there are those red pools ping ponging all over the place that seem to just one shot you out of the blue sometimes. Why I haven't an idea.

Ghosts are consumed to spawn bosses

Bosses can create devastating AoE's that can destroy squishy players.

Ghosts always spawn in 3's and head towards the closest pike.

When enough ghosts are consumed the pike shoots out a devastating shockwave damaging all players around it and a boss is spawned.

El_Borracho

Harrowstorms are a love/hate thing with me. I love the increase in difficulty. I love the full on melee of the fight. I love how you can't solo it. Now...

I HATE the constant and omnipresent stun/immobilize attacks that seem to come right before the Blood Knight drops his black cross on the ground for the instakill. Its RIDICULOUS. Add in that awesome lag so you can't prep for the attack and, yay, another rez.

But I'll live with with. They're way more fun than the typical dolmen

Jeremy

Ratinira wrote: »

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

ESO is my first MMO, but I took the time to learn how to work with the game, not try to force "standing still and hit whatever" on a game that emphasizes target prioritization, and moving out of the #$*&% red!

Because many don't take that time. They don't want to look for information and/or learn.
During free week a lot of noobs joined our guild. They were asking dozens of questions. Questions that take 5 sec to google the guide that will explain half of the topic. But they won't spend 5 sec to google and 5 min to read. They'll spend time asking question after question after question...
I don't understand that. I ask questions only if I looked for an information but couldn't found it. Or if I don't know how to find it.
Looks like it's just different ways of playing...

Wow, that's very friendly and welcoming to new players. Why talk at all if you can just google anything?

I don't really consider asking 10 question on "how to craft" topic a real "talking"...
Or questions like "I just installed the game, tell me how to play".
Also I usually consider that if *I* dont bother to spend 5 sec to find an answer that interests *me* why I should belive that anyone else must spend *their* time explaining things that I don't bother to spend time on?
Just the different way of seeing that, I presume

I get what you're saying.

But I do miss the dawn days of MMORPGs back when people would actually talk to one another about the game world and benefit from the knowledge of others. It made the experience feel a lot more involving and realistic. Now it's usually just "go watch a video".

newtinmpls

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

No, not the Harrowstorm mechanics themselves, the fact that most players refuse to do mechanics.

<large snip>

Why are players so resistant to mechanics? Why is "bring the adds into the cleave" so hard to teach?

You raise two overlapping, but very different questions:

-Learning the mechanics - what they actually are

-Doing the mechanics - and being able to accomplish them

The learning part can be quite difficult. As an example, the group of friends that I play with tend to avoid many of the DLC and VET dungeon partly because they are long and annoying, and partly because not all of us are BiS min-maxed players.

Last night we went into Imperial Prison - and it's probably been years. No recent/updated guides. The videos we found were clearly old, as the players were ignoring adds that were killing us.

The "Mechanics" included:

Ibomez The Flesh Sculptor; not him, but his crazy "inmates" that you allegedly have to "pick up the green piles of goo on the floor. To do this you must synergize them. Once you have the target aoe on your cursor, you have to THROW the ball AT the inmates."

Except it doesn't work. The "synergize" key does not allow any targeting; it's just "pick up and throw" in whatever direction the character happens to be facing. Once you know that it's possible to turn and "aim" your entire body before synergizing, but it's not very workable.

Flesh Abomination also known as "Fun With Hoarvars" not sure if it was a new feature or a bug, but at any given time there were two Hoarvars that were not targetable, did not take damage (bars just never dropped). NOT FUN.

Lord Warden Dusk; a combination of some of the most annoying mechanics in the game - and I can see why they were pretty much never used after this. The Portals - well you have to time the jump - but they are also moving and you have to GET to them, and then you have to hope that between lag and bugs that the synergy will actually work. As for the machine gun row of blasts - again if all the party members happen to have super speed gear on then fine, otherwise die a lot.

Oh I have no doubt that we will "get better" at this, but it's not logical, it's not explained or foreshadowed, its just a bunch of hard to figure out how to actually do annoying mechanics.

Ratinira

Jeremy wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

supersonic_kitten wrote: »

Ratinira wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

ESO is my first MMO, but I took the time to learn how to work with the game, not try to force "standing still and hit whatever" on a game that emphasizes target prioritization, and moving out of the #$*&% red!

Because many don't take that time. They don't want to look for information and/or learn.
During free week a lot of noobs joined our guild. They were asking dozens of questions. Questions that take 5 sec to google the guide that will explain half of the topic. But they won't spend 5 sec to google and 5 min to read. They'll spend time asking question after question after question...
I don't understand that. I ask questions only if I looked for an information but couldn't found it. Or if I don't know how to find it.
Looks like it's just different ways of playing...

Wow, that's very friendly and welcoming to new players. Why talk at all if you can just google anything?

I don't really consider asking 10 question on "how to craft" topic a real "talking"...
Or questions like "I just installed the game, tell me how to play".
Also I usually consider that if *I* dont bother to spend 5 sec to find an answer that interests *me* why I should belive that anyone else must spend *their* time explaining things that I don't bother to spend time on?
Just the different way of seeing that, I presume

I get what you're saying.

But I do miss the dawn days of MMORPGs back when people would actually talk to one another about the game world and benefit from the knowledge of others. It made the experience feel a lot more involving and realistic. Now it's usually just "go watch a video".

Talking about world is different thing from "what is craft? Why to craft? Where I craft? How I craft? Oh, and where do I find resources for craft? And how I research? Oh, and how to change color?"... One guide will give much more then 10 such questions.
I have written a lot of small "tips" for my guildmates about tricks in that game I know. But none of them are "to craft you should come to crafting station and press E. And to find crafting station you should first press M to open the map"...

Dusk_Coven

"Look up a guide" is a rubbish answer.
Before someone wrote a guide on how to do Harrowstorms or Dungeons or whatever, how did people figure it out?

By paying attention and figuring it out.

No, it's not ZOS's fault. This one is all on the players especially when the OP says people are in chat trying to explain the mechanic.

*

Mechanics are basically ESO's way of trying to force people to group but clearly that's not what people want to do. They just want to dps their way through everything and don't care about anyone else on their way to the loot.
They should look at play patterns and stop trying to force content on players. Same with questing in PvP zones and group-mandatory dungeons.

Luke_Flamesword

For me Harrowstorm were pretty simple to understand after first time - there is a lot of screaming about pikes(especially every time a single pike is destroyed), It's hard to ignore it and you can see that after destroying all three appear main boss. If someone don't get it after couple harrowstorms, it's definetely not ZOS fault.

Smitch_59

What's a pike?

Seriously, I just got the chapter during the recent sale. I have no idea what to do at a Harrowstorm, I just jump in when there's a crowd.

So now I guess I have to google what the hell I'm supposed to do. Yes, the game is *** at explaining mechanics.

AlnilamE

newtinmpls wrote: »

Last night we went into Imperial Prison - and it's probably been years. No recent/updated guides. The videos we found were clearly old, as the players were ignoring adds that were killing us.

The "Mechanics" included:

Ibomez The Flesh Sculptor; not him, but his crazy "inmates" that you allegedly have to "pick up the green piles of goo on the floor. To do this you must synergize them. Once you have the target aoe on your cursor, you have to THROW the ball AT the inmates."

Except it doesn't work. The "synergize" key does not allow any targeting; it's just "pick up and throw" in whatever direction the character happens to be facing. Once you know that it's possible to turn and "aim" your entire body before synergizing, but it's not very workable.

Do you have ground target set to auto? Because I don't and I get the yellow circle to aim (and to aim other things like Grand Healing or the Hoarvors in Malestrom Arena's Spiral of Shadows.

So I'm guessing in your case, you just have to look in the right direction before you hit the synergy.

Thannazzar

Fur_like_snow wrote: »

The mechanics are cheap. I have enemy ground AoE set to an obnoxious color of green as to contrast with the red storm. But sometimes the shrike will still one shot me with a ground AoE that i cant see and my recap is like you got hit 3 times for 24k ez clap. But sometimes I’ll check my combat log and some of the enemy skills are hitting for like 100 damage? What’s the point? The blood knight scion can one shot as well with his ground AoE that’s difficult to see and instant. If you’re a noob and ur stats are bad than even more things are gonna feel like one shots. I can solo a storm with my magplar but to many shrike spawns might still get me.

Yep, only thing that ever kills me on HS runs is the Harrowstorms Shrike Swarm that has no visual aoe telegraph.

r3turn2s3nd3r

newtinmpls wrote: »

The "Mechanics" included:

Ibomez The Flesh Sculptor; not him, but his crazy "inmates" that you allegedly have to "pick up the green piles of goo on the floor. To do this you must synergize them. Once you have the target aoe on your cursor, you have to THROW the ball AT the inmates."

Except it doesn't work. The "synergize" key does not allow any targeting; it's just "pick up and throw" in whatever direction the character happens to be facing. Once you know that it's possible to turn and "aim" your entire body before synergizing, but it's not very workable.

FYI, this is probably because you have 'Quick Cast Ground Abilities' set to on. If you turn it off you will get the targeting circle.
Also, it's easier to let the inmates form the flesh atro and then hit it with the 'green pile of goo', it debuffs it's armor rating to zero and will melt.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Flesh Abomination also known as "Fun With Hoarvars" not sure if it was a new feature or a bug, but at any given time there were two Hoarvars that were not targetable, did not take damage (bars just never dropped). NOT FUN.

Definitely a bug.

newtinmpls wrote: »

Lord Warden Dusk; a combination of some of the most annoying mechanics in the game - and I can see why they were pretty much never used after this. The Portals - well you have to time the jump - but they are also moving and you have to GET to them, and then you have to hope that between lag and bugs that the synergy will actually work. As for the machine gun row of blasts - again if all the party members happen to have super speed gear on then fine, otherwise die a lot.

If there's enough dps, you can skip portals (have ulimates ready on pull and burn to 66%). Use shade phase to rebuild ultimates and repeat (burning to 33%) when he comes out of the crystal in the middle. If not, yeah it's good luck with the portal / synergy.

Swordancer

Mechanics is usually death based. This is entire ESO spirit. You died and then escaped, like Chuck Norris.

Do not complain when new guys suck becouse this is rude. Do not complain about anyone becouse it is chapter so some people might be there just for the first time. I mean harrowstorms are so boring I don't even do them anymore so I guess a lot of people there are unexpirienced even with high CP becouse they unlocked the zone or something. If you don't belive wishp them and you'll see.

People are not playing with you in the group so don't expect anything from them. This is their adventure, you are just some random adventurer whose gonna get arrow to the knee. They defeated Molag Bal so don't try to compare yourself to them.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Smitch_59 wrote: »

What's a pike?
s.

The big question mark looking bundles of sticks coming out of the ground. Matron Jagiska says things like "defend the pikes you fools" "as long as one pike remains the storm will continue." when pikes are destroyed.

I mean, sure, first time you show up ofc you won't know. But ESO is a TES game, listening to dialogue (or having subtitles on) is an important part of learning the game.

Edit: Oh, Fennorian refers to them as witch pikes in the main quest too, plus there's an achievement furnishing "Quiescent Pike". Kinda in the "what's Blackreach" vein: if you did the main quest, HOW DID YOU MISS BLACKREACH? Even if you didn't do the main quest it's referenced lots of places. Plus... didn't anyone ever just pull the lever in a great lift, even if you didn't know what it did? When I played Skyrim for the first time, I found a great lift before I knew what it was. Spent almost 10 minutes trying to get past the gate to pull the lever.

UntilValhalla13

I could've sworn that you had to destroy pikes or totems to get rid of the harrowstorms on the quest line.

It's more than likely just new people who spawn into the zone and stumble across this giant red thing in the sky. They probably don't even know what skills are still.

But no, the game doesn't tell you a whole lot about anything. If you want to remotely get better as a player, you do have to look up guides and videos, instead of just standing there spamming light attacks because that's what they did in Skyrim.

Fur_like_snow

Defeated Molag Bal? Haha good joke adventurer. And I’m the king of the mud crabs!

pantherfan69

i do find the shrikes to be ridiculous, those could use a major tuning for sure

Gythral

Instant one shots with hamsters that are asleep 100% of the time and nothing but red on red!

Nothing wrong with them that fixing both the server and contrast would not cure!

newtinmpls

AlnilamE wrote: »

Do you have ground target set to auto? Because I don't and I get the yellow circle to aim (and to aim other things like Grand Healing or the Hoarvors in Malestrom Arena's Spiral of Shadows.

Cool...thanks for this insightful question!

Yes, I have ground/auto because otherwise it's a PITA to do much in the way of AoE.

But....even when I do so, I can aim with my crosshair. So maybe I need to work with that a bit more.

Thanks for the suggestion!

redgreensunset

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

This right here. I've played few by now because of the daily and even now I'm not quite sure of the order. Also ignoring the bosses is going to get low level player and glass canons killed, especially if there's no tank around to hold them which there often isn't.

Well, there isn't an order. The next Harrowstorm site is random, often can be the same one that just went down. That's why people have to call them out in zone chat. At least ZOS made the next HS spawn immediately after 1 goes down, but still doesn't solve the problem of people sitting at one site for 30 mins wondering why it didn't come up.

Even max level tanks get killed, especially by the fetching shrikes. You don't need a tank, just rez in place and keep fighting. Most overworld events aren't designed for trinity gameplay. Sure a tank can mostly keep a boss facing away, but those are "elite" monsters that are not guaranteed to obey taunt.

Edit: Harrowstorms had the opportunity to be a great lesson in "move out of the red'... but there's so much red, plus purple/blue that doesn't really show up well, that new players don't realize they can avoid damage by MOVING. Not even roll dodge, just stepping out of the red. It's a really important skill to have for all game content, but many players never learn until they join a trials guild.

Eh, a lot o the time the "red" doesn't even show up at all, or it is impossible to move out of (like those damn amoebas). I have no problem moving out of red, problem is that red is either a total no show or shows up the second after the attack hits. That's assuming you can see anything at all in the techo lightning show that Harrowstorms are, even without other players's effects.

As for the shrikes ect, I have a newly minted tank, she has starter tank gear and doesn't even have all skills fully leveled yet (she used to be a healer but got a role change). She has no problem surviving even the shrikes assuming I can tell something is incoming. Problem is that even on top of the "lack of red" the shrikes power attacks appear to be not signaled at all, or happens when they're up in the air and you can't tell wtf they're doing. Perma block helps here but is boring.