The penalties for leaving the group are too short - small suggestion

Swordancer

I know that somone will write about not using dungeon finder to find a team or there will be some strange theories about blaming low DPS or a poor tank but that's not what I want to talk about.

I belive that players should be punished the right way for leaving without others agreement. Like 20-30% of my runs is ending people leaving without even starting beouse some player in the group is under 500 CP. It desn't mean the guy isn't badass DPS, leaving is just rude. There shoud be some option like "Find replacment for me" or something so they can get out when there is actually somone that will take thier place without penalty. Penalty for exit without finding replacment should be much longer, like 1h and it should be longer every time the guy leaves upt to even 24h (let say reset every week or month).

Of course people can ask to be kicked and then wait in one place just to force the group to do that. Kick option should be taken away and replaced withe the same thing, find replacment (require other people agreement). The guy who want to leave need to wait becouse kicking is not an option anymore but he have to wait in the dungeon. Yes he might not play if he is rude but he still need to wait for replacment to do not be punished. I think it will teach people responsibility. This is a minor change, and it could significantly improve the climate dungeon trips with strangers.

fargo_viper

1 hour... lol

buttaface

No, average players who do nothing wrong should not be penalized to leaving bad pugs, nor should they be expected to suffer through either to avoid a penalty. If anything, the leave timer should be shortened by a minute every time a dps or healer according to role is the first to take aggro on either bosses or trash before the tank.

If an unnecessary rusher can do 40k+ dps, no problem so long as they aren't messing up quest steps for lower players, but the types who do this (mostly sorcs, wardens 100-300CP IME) almost never pull anything near decent dps. They leave trails of skipped mobs attacking the rest of the team... eh... NM, there's NO rationalization for it, and since COVID, the player base has definitely declined in PUGS in this manner.

Elitist crappiness is a part of all these games, and is unfortunate, but lengthening the penalty timer for leaving creates a whole bunch of other problems on the low-mid game.

gatekeeper13

Let's ban players from playing a game with 1 hour/24 hour time penalties because they refuse to do a dungeon with players who do 20k group dps or die 10 times from the same AoE/mechanic.

Swordancer

I belive game creates such people on it's own. Im not doing quite much dunegons anymore. Trials usually. The reason for that is problems with poeple leaving too soon anfter one, or two fails. Yes I can ask in my guilds and get proper team that won't leave until it's done becouse they feel bad about leaving guild mate but even large guilds has problems with leaving whatever they doing just to help guild member with some dungeon. That makes dungeons being just unpleasant game experience.

Players should be punished, thats it. Otherewise they'll never learn.

You're right about that good player shoudn't be punished for laving group that suck. Even I leave when I know there is no hope for that group but imagine I can find replacment for the team before I leave still doing my job meanwhile.

Would't that be a good thing? I mean penalty don't need to be so long as I suggested becouse this is just my opinion and I would absolute do that. I believe in responsibility and that's because of my character and I understand somone can think otherwise.

I stil think game systems could be easly more fair with that small change.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

And are you taking into account the many disconnect that are happening now? Player power outages? Internet disruptions? You do realize not everyone leaving or dcing in dungeons is doing so purposefully, although even the ones that do, many times it's for a justifiable reason. There's a reason battlegrounds had a shortening of penalty times, not longer.

Dusk_Coven

Sorry but no. The problem is the "solution" cannot account for WHY someone leaves, which may be legitimate.
Just like real life, people who abuse the system often results in rules (law) that ends up handicapping everyone, innocent or otherwise. So any "solutions" need to take that into account.

Pevey

No amount of penalty is going to force people to do free carries they don’t want to do, so the penalties are fine as they are.

LadyNalcarya

buttaface wrote: »

No, average players who do nothing wrong should not be penalized to leaving bad pugs, nor should they be expected to suffer through either to avoid a penalty. If anything, the leave timer should be shortened by a minute every time a dps or healer according to role is the first to take aggro on either bosses or trash before the tank.

If an unnecessary rusher can do 40k+ dps, no problem so long as they aren't messing up quest steps for lower players, but the types who do this (mostly sorcs, wardens 100-300CP IME) almost never pull anything near decent dps. They leave trails of skipped mobs attacking the rest of the team... eh... NM, there's NO rationalization for it, and since COVID, the player base has definitely declined in PUGS in this manner.

Elitist crappiness is a part of all these games, and is unfortunate, but lengthening the penalty timer for leaving creates a whole bunch of other problems on the low-mid game.

This.
Especially since there's so many complaints about tanks not wanting to pug. A tank cannot do anything if there's not enough damage and/or if people don't want to do mechanics. Harsher penalties would mean that even less support players would want to pug.
And it's not elitist to not want to waste your time. It's very disheartening when you actually try to help people only to leave 2 hours later without killing the last boss because you cannot spend a whole evening there.

Eifleber

I think public flogging by Urgarlag Chief-bane would be a good penalty.

DaveMoeDee

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

No, average players who do nothing wrong should not be penalized to leaving bad pugs, nor should they be expected to suffer through either to avoid a penalty. If anything, the leave timer should be shortened by a minute every time a dps or healer according to role is the first to take aggro on either bosses or trash before the tank.

If an unnecessary rusher can do 40k+ dps, no problem so long as they aren't messing up quest steps for lower players, but the types who do this (mostly sorcs, wardens 100-300CP IME) almost never pull anything near decent dps. They leave trails of skipped mobs attacking the rest of the team... eh... NM, there's NO rationalization for it, and since COVID, the player base has definitely declined in PUGS in this manner.

Elitist crappiness is a part of all these games, and is unfortunate, but lengthening the penalty timer for leaving creates a whole bunch of other problems on the low-mid game.

This.
Especially since there's so many complaints about tanks not wanting to pug. A tank cannot do anything if there's not enough damage and/or if people don't want to do mechanics. Harsher penalties would mean that even less support players would want to pug.
And it's not elitist to not want to waste your time. It's very disheartening when you actually try to help people only to leave 2 hours later without killing the last boss because you cannot spend a whole evening there.

As a tank, agreed. I will stick with some really bad DPS, but there are dungeons where you know they have no chance. I'm pretty much only doing vet though unless leveling a character. I don't know that I've ever bailed on a normal while leveling a character.

Thechuckage

Swordancer wrote: »

I belive game creates such people on it's own. Im not doing quite much dunegons anymore. Trials usually. The reason for that is problems with poeple leaving too soon anfter one, or two fails. Yes I can ask in my guilds and get proper team that won't leave until it's done becouse they feel bad about leaving guild mate but even large guilds has problems with leaving whatever they doing just to help guild member with some dungeon. That makes dungeons being just unpleasant game experience.

Players should be punished, thats it. Otherewise they'll never learn.

You're right about that good player shoudn't be punished for laving group that suck. Even I leave when I know there is no hope for that group but imagine I can find replacment for the team before I leave still doing my job meanwhile.

Would't that be a good thing? I mean penalty don't need to be so long as I suggested becouse this is just my opinion and I would absolute do that. I believe in responsibility and that's because of my character and I understand somone can think otherwise.

I stil think game systems could be easly more fair with that small change.

There are dungeons where you can see very quickly if you are going to fail. As the tank, seeing dps or heals trying to rush ahead. Or mandatory mechanics being ignored, hell even just not meeting dps checks (BC2 vet) why should the player be penalized for leaving a failing situation?

As a tank I can help a flagging group (keep some dps skill on bar) but if the group can't/won't meet me half way, I'm going to jump ship.

Eifleber

Thechuckage wrote: »

There are dungeons where you can see very quickly if you are going to fail. As the tank, seeing dps or heals trying to rush ahead. Or mandatory mechanics being ignored, hell even just not meeting dps checks (BC2 vet) why should the player be penalized for leaving a failing situation?

As a tank I can help a flagging group (keep some dps skill on bar) but if the group can't/won't meet me half way, I'm going to jump ship.

All joking aside, I absolutely agree that there are situations where it's just best to leave.

I think part of the problem is the random queue. You may end up in Fungal Grotto - or in Moonhunter Keep.
May be handy if the dungeons you queue for are divided into some more logical categories.

And no matter the penalty you can change character and queue again anyway *shrug*.

zaria

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

No, average players who do nothing wrong should not be penalized to leaving bad pugs, nor should they be expected to suffer through either to avoid a penalty. If anything, the leave timer should be shortened by a minute every time a dps or healer according to role is the first to take aggro on either bosses or trash before the tank.

If an unnecessary rusher can do 40k+ dps, no problem so long as they aren't messing up quest steps for lower players, but the types who do this (mostly sorcs, wardens 100-300CP IME) almost never pull anything near decent dps. They leave trails of skipped mobs attacking the rest of the team... eh... NM, there's NO rationalization for it, and since COVID, the player base has definitely declined in PUGS in this manner.

Elitist crappiness is a part of all these games, and is unfortunate, but lengthening the penalty timer for leaving creates a whole bunch of other problems on the low-mid game.

This.
Especially since there's so many complaints about tanks not wanting to pug. A tank cannot do anything if there's not enough damage and/or if people don't want to do mechanics. Harsher penalties would mean that even less support players would want to pug.
And it's not elitist to not want to waste your time. It's very disheartening when you actually try to help people only to leave 2 hours later without killing the last boss because you cannot spend a whole evening there.

As a tank, agreed. I will stick with some really bad DPS, but there are dungeons where you know they have no chance. I'm pretty much only doing vet though unless leveling a character. I don't know that I've ever bailed on a normal while leveling a character.

I bailed on one normal not so long ago it was nICP, low dps group who did not want to listen to how to do the cabbage fight, now they might not speak English but it did not matter, I was tank and was there for the quest skill point.

Another one was vDarkshade2, low dps group, no communication, one guy with 14K health, fake healer, have fun on engine guardian. The 14 K guy did not respond so I left.
Now an 1 day suspension from finder would not hurt me, I just switch character but it probably make good players stay away from the finder much more.

Now some days ago I did an vBC2 for skill point on a tank, got the quest invite I accepted, ended at last boss, group was happy to see an DK in ebon
Lower dps group but healer was good. Now their problem was that they was scared of killing daderots even if I had too many.
And my back bar was messed up, it was the overland bow bar on frost staff so no inner light, and I was bobbled 5 times

Now had we wiped there I would just explain that if they got an daderots on them and I had more than 3 they should simply run on boss so it was killed by AoE, healer would keep them alive.
Fun run, skill point in 5 minutes
And that separate the hopeless and the we need to work together better groups as in talking up to some point obviosly.

Faylestar

No, average players who do nothing wrong should not be penalized to leaving bad pugs, nor should they be expected to suffer through either to avoid a penalty.

Got stuck in a vet FG2 group last night as a healer with dps hat couldnt kill the shadow assassins on the 2nd boss. As in, when I was targeted, they got it to 80%. First attempt got the boss to 90% in 9 tether cycles.

I got 4 warhorns off on the first boss.

I'd have taken any possible penalty to gtfo and never be stuck in there again, but if your options are "waste a lot of time not being able to queue" and "waste a lot of time and money repairing gear because your group cannot kill things", you really dont have an option.

Flaaklypa

Faylestar wrote: »

No, average players who do nothing wrong should not be penalized to leaving bad pugs, nor should they be expected to suffer through either to avoid a penalty.

Got stuck in a vet FG2 group last night as a healer with dps hat couldnt kill the shadow assassins on the 2nd boss. As in, when I was targeted, they got it to 80%. First attempt got the boss to 90% in 9 tether cycles.

I got 4 warhorns off on the first boss.

I'd have taken any possible penalty to gtfo and never be stuck in there again, but if your options are "waste a lot of time not being able to queue" and "waste a lot of time and money repairing gear because your group cannot kill things", you really dont have an option.

Exactly! Completely agree, this is a bad suggestion by OP

Jeremy

Swordancer wrote: »

I know that somone will write about not using dungeon finder to find a team or there will be some strange theories about blaming low DPS or a poor tank but that's not what I want to talk about.

I belive that players should be punished the right way for leaving without others agreement. Like 20-30% of my runs is ending people leaving without even starting beouse some player in the group is under 500 CP. It desn't mean the guy isn't badass DPS, leaving is just rude. There shoud be some option like "Find replacment for me" or something so they can get out when there is actually somone that will take thier place without penalty. Penalty for exit without finding replacment should be much longer, like 1h and it should be longer every time the guy leaves upt to even 24h (let say reset every week or month).

Of course people can ask to be kicked and then wait in one place just to force the group to do that. Kick option should be taken away and replaced withe the same thing, find replacment (require other people agreement). The guy who want to leave need to wait becouse kicking is not an option anymore but he have to wait in the dungeon. Yes he might not play if he is rude but he still need to wait for replacment to do not be punished. I think it will teach people responsibility. This is a minor change, and it could significantly improve the climate dungeon trips with strangers.

Imagine getting disconnected and then coming back to an hour long penalty, though.

I'd probably just log.

Canned_Apples

fargo_viper wrote: »

1 hour... lol

One hour isn’t enough.

Leaving should apply a 360 year curse that prevents you from queuing again until you buy a, single-use, 100 crown gem elixir.

CasgarTheSomnolent

In my world, I would only penalize PUG players that complain about others' low DPS. They clearly don't know what they're doing in dungeons if they think that's the problem. I can't think of a single dungeon you can't complete with any amount of DPS and proper knowledge of the mechanics and fundamentals of gameplay.

In fact, in DLC dungeons, DPStards make many fights worse because the mechanics are often health based. So they overlap them and make the group wipe. If you quote my, your, or anyone's DPS to me in a PUG, I will tell to you to shut up, do the mechs, and stay alive.

Faylestar

I can't think of a single dungeon you can't complete with any amount of DPS

Vet Direfrost last boss regen means lack of dps ends up as a wipe due to adds.

Vet FG2 has multiple "burn or die" mechanics.

Those are the two i can think of that arent "your healer eventually wishes for death", which is substantially more.

Jeremy

CasgarTheSomnolent wrote: »

In my world, I would only penalize PUG players that complain about others' low DPS. They clearly don't know what they're doing in dungeons if they think that's the problem. I can't think of a single dungeon you can't complete with any amount of DPS and proper knowledge of the mechanics and fundamentals of gameplay.

In fact, in DLC dungeons, DPStards make many fights worse because the mechanics are often health based. So they overlap them and make the group wipe. If you quote my, your, or anyone's DPS to me in a PUG, I will tell to you to shut up, do the mechs, and stay alive.

I agree with you in principle. But there are some fights you need to reach a certain damage threshold to complete. City of Ash II for example has a couple, like the boss who summons adds you have to kill or she drains their life and never dies. Then some fights are made absolutely miserable with low DPS, like Rilis in Banished Cells 2, Domihause in Falkreath Hold, or even back to City of Ash II with Valkyn Skoria. I could name more but I'll leave it there in the interest of brevity.

But I do get your point. You don't need insane DPS and many players focus more on their epeen meter than on the mechanics of the fight. I do think it's important for the DPS to actually be able to do damage though. If they're barely pushing out 10k or under a lot of fights are going to be a struggle.

Tsar_Gekkou

Terrible ideas. If you increase the penalty, then good people will stop pugging completely outside of normal dungeons for gear farming, which means players who don't have friends/guildies that are good players will wait forever in queue for a vet dungeon. I know as a healer main that i'd never pug again if I got punished even more harshly for leaving a group after getting matched with 2 dps who just stand back and spam snipe while doing 3K damage each.

Jeremy

Faylestar wrote: »

I can't think of a single dungeon you can't complete with any amount of DPS

Vet Direfrost last boss regen means lack of dps ends up as a wipe due to adds.

Vet FG2 has multiple "burn or die" mechanics.

Those are the two i can think of that arent "your healer eventually wishes for death", which is substantially more.

Yeah, in Vet Direfrost Keep the group needs at least enough damage to counter that one regen tick - otherwise she'll never die even if the group is effective at breaking her channel. I've had that happen to me a couple of times in pugs.

You can sometimes get around the "burn or die" mechanics in Fungal Grotto II by being quick on the raise. But competent damage definitely makes several of those boss fights in there a lot easier.

TwinLamps

This is unfair suggestion.
People should not be penalized that much because RNG gave them team that cannot complete the task.

bmnoble

Still better than an hour with a bad pug group.


The wait time is fine as it is if anything I think at most it should be scrapped for damage dealers, for tanks and healers its needed to prevent you ending up right back with the exact same group you just left due to the better queue times for the support roles, DPS who leave early have to contend with the same long queue times they had to get in the dungeon in the first place that is penalty enough.

OmniDo

As a Tank myself, (I also heal and DPS on the same character without switching CP, SP, or attributes no less...) I will typically just carry n00bs through normals, since there are numerous builds with sets that allow tanks to solo, albeit sometimes very slowly, the entire dungeon.

There are, much to my chagrin however, DLC dungeons that one cannot solo due to mechanics which will pretty much guarantee a wipe from 1-shot events that are not recoverable, or systems that require 2 or more players in order to complete.
It is only those dungeons & groups that I will bail from if I realize that the group simply cannot adapt to the difficulty quickly enough (say, 2-3 attempts) to complete it.

I have nothing against n00bs; we were all in their shoes at one time, but that time (for me) has long since passed, and I am no longer willing to invest the patience required.

Athan1

Under the anonymity the internet offers, people do whatever they want. The same players that bail after the first wipe or kick you for a noob question, are the ones that succumb to any peer pressure by their guilds, such as being told what to wear etc. People suppress themselves and behave or cooperate when their identity is known, and behave selfishly when no-one knows them.

Swordancer

I can't do not agree with that @Athan1 Maybe the only thing we actually need is just some players stats we can see before join any dungeon group.

LadyNalcarya

CasgarTheSomnolent wrote: »

In my world, I would only penalize PUG players that complain about others' low DPS. They clearly don't know what they're doing in dungeons if they think that's the problem. I can't think of a single dungeon you can't complete with any amount of DPS and proper knowledge of the mechanics and fundamentals of gameplay.

In fact, in DLC dungeons, DPStards make many fights worse because the mechanics are often health based. So they overlap them and make the group wipe. If you quote my, your, or anyone's DPS to me in a PUG, I will tell to you to shut up, do the mechs, and stay alive.

I'm tired of this argument. Where are all those people who have terrible dps but can do any mechanic perfectly? I'm not saying that high dps automatically guarantees a smooth ride, but from my experience it's much more likely that a better dd will also be better at following mechanics. After all, dps rotations are also a part of game mechanics.
Also, low dps makes things much more difficult, especially if the boss has a lot of hp and several oneshot mechanics. Longer fights mean less room for error, and let's be honest, no one can play perfectly 100% of the time, not even those who do it for living. Even if we're not talking about dlc dungeons, let's say you wanna do vCoA2 for a pledge. It is totally possible to kill Valkyn even after you run out of platforms, but it is significantly more difficult and if someone dies you'll probably not be able to rezz them.
Then there's another thing: not everyone can play for hours. Even those of us who work from home still don't have infinite free time and want to be able to clear dungeons more or less reliably.

pklemming

On my Tank, I had to physically show a group with a total 20k dps, why they could not do vMF. After failing to get thtough the shield on the 2nd boss for the 3rd or 4th time, they decided to go do normal instead.

Also, if I am on DPS and I get a 17k (tank) on vMOS, why should I be punished for leaving?

Ratzkifal

Considering how often the group finder doesn't do its job correctly and hands out punishments to people who did nothing wrong, no please remove those penalties instead.

Just today it happened to me that I queued up together with a lvl10 for a random normal dungeon. I was positive it was for the normal version since I checked beforehand and under normal circumstances it wouldn't even let you queue up if someone in your group wasn't high enough level for vet.
But, somehow, I was the only one who got into Banished Cells after it showed the loading screen for veteran, while the two new group members below lvl50 grouped with us by the group finder along with the lvl10 player had to stay out because "you are not high enough level to join this instance". It even displayed vet difficulty in the menu despite me having changed it to normal before queuing up. And so we had to leave. And because we left a dungeon in progress, we had to wait the 15minutes penalty before queueing up again.

And you want to increase it to an hour? No thanks.