Can we talk about DC exploiting the low pop bonus.

MAOofDC

For the last few campaigns in Grey Host (PC/NA) DC as a faction has been exploiting the low pop bonus. First off giving a faction more score points because they have a low pop is complete ***. Give players of a low pop faction more AP or even more health as a bonus. But giving it more score makes no sense and creates an exploitable mechanic. How is it that a faction with no scrolls and three keeps get double or triple what the other factions get? How is that fair? If you can't keep a healthy population on for the length of the campaign you don't deserve to do well at the end of it.
Now how does DC work the expolit. Simple just before the score eval most of the faction just logs off waits the couple of minutes for the eval to happen then log back on. It creates an artificial low pop and quite frankly it is cheating in my opinion. Usually because there isn't enough time to gate lock them, the only way to prevent an massive score gain during the eval. Even if the other factions try to rush their keeps (team orange oh so rarely happens) they have logged back on and can now defend the keeps. They use this exploit to make up a massive deficit in point during the last 3 or 4 days of the campaign and it's disgusting. If you need to cheat to win you don't deserve to win. I suspect a number of DC will comment and say "we're not cheating just using the system that's in place." My reply is "That's exploiting a system that wasn't well thought out to begin with and is cheating and deep down you know it."

ThePedge

I think you're on about PCNA? Afaik EP dominates PCEU Gray Host.

Either way, it's not exploiting or cheating just because the system isn't well thought out.

If that was the case anyone who captures all 6 scrolls in the middle of the night, or uses Volendrung, even the Emperor system is not well thought out.

Give the dominating faction more buffs? What kind of balance is that.

Cap the map in the middle of the night whilst most likely outnumbering the other factions combined? Oh you get 5% more damage, 5% more resistances and more health - congratulations!

MAOofDC

ThePedge wrote: »

Either way, it's not exploiting or cheating just because the system isn't well thought out.

Logging out for 5 minutes to get a 300+ score for a eval then logging back in is exploitive and a form of cheating. That's what I'm talking about. In two or three days DC made up well over 1000 points by logging off and then logging back in. How in all that is holy is that fair and NOT an exploit?

Yes I'm talking about PC/NA.

redspecter23

I don't believe that it's an exploit in that it's not a bannable offense, but I do agree that the system as designed is open for abuse. As the above poster already mentioned, many aspects of the scoring system aren't very well designed. Perhaps ZOS will take a look at the system for improvements in the future, but nothing the players are doing is an exploit unless there is something being done I'm not aware of.

MAOofDC

If you know there is a flaw in a system and you intentionally use that flaw then it's an exploit. DC is going from poplocked or three bars to one bar but only during the minute or right around the score eval. Right after the points are added they log back in and continue the fight.

redspecter23

MAOofDC wrote: »

If you know there is a flaw in a system and you intentionally use that flaw then it's an exploit. DC is going from poplocked or three bars to one bar but only during the minute or right around the score eval. Right after the points are added they log back in and continue the fight.

They are aware of the mechanics of the system and maximizing their gains through legitimate means. Logging in and out is not a bannable offense and neither is knowledge of game mechanics. It is most definitely on ZOS to seal up loopholes like this and it's not the most honorable thing to do, but honor in pvp is a very subjective term.

MAOofDC

redspecter23 wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

If you know there is a flaw in a system and you intentionally use that flaw then it's an exploit. DC is going from poplocked or three bars to one bar but only during the minute or right around the score eval. Right after the points are added they log back in and continue the fight.

They are aware of the mechanics of the system and maximizing their gains through legitimate means. Logging in and out is not a bannable offense and neither is knowledge of game mechanics. It is most definitely on ZOS to seal up loopholes like this and it's not the most honorable thing to do, but honor in pvp is a very subjective term.

Not looking for bans that would be impractical and wholly unfair to punish players for ZoS' mistakes. I am looking for ZoS to change how the Low Pop bonus works. Instead of giving the factions a score bonus it should give the players an AP bonus.

JobooAGS

I’ve been asking for a change to the low pop bonus for a while as all 3 factions abuse it one way or another, but people only really bring it up when DC has it -_-

Bergzorn

Wait, so a large portion of the faction is able to coordinate to log in/out within a few minutes but (seemingly from the post) not able to coordinate their actions on the map to 'legitimately' gain points?

idk

MAOofDC wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Either way, it's not exploiting or cheating just because the system isn't well thought out.

Logging out for 5 minutes to get a 300+ score for a eval then logging back in is exploitive and a form of cheating. That's what I'm talking about. In two or three days DC made up well over 1000 points by logging off and then logging back in. How in all that is holy is that fair and NOT an exploit?

Yes I'm talking about PC/NA.

No offense but do you have actual information to support this is being done? If so, report this to Zos via in-game means and have them sort it out. Take SS or video of anything that will support the claim for them to review. Include names of players in you report to Zos. If groups of players are doing this, and it would take large groups to do this, then Zos will need to figure out a means to counter it. Also, since it would take large numbers of players to join in on this action to tip the scales proof should be easy to come by.

MAOofDC

idk wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Either way, it's not exploiting or cheating just because the system isn't well thought out.

Logging out for 5 minutes to get a 300+ score for a eval then logging back in is exploitive and a form of cheating. That's what I'm talking about. In two or three days DC made up well over 1000 points by logging off and then logging back in. How in all that is holy is that fair and NOT an exploit?

Yes I'm talking about PC/NA.

No offense but do you have actual information to support this is being done? If so, report this to Zos via in-game means and have them sort it out. Take SS or video of anything that will support the claim for them to review. Include names of players in you report to Zos. If groups of players are doing this, and it would take large groups to do this, then Zos will need to figure out a means to counter it. Also, since it would take large numbers of players to join in on this action to tip the scales proof should be easy to come by.

How am I supposed to report hundreds of players? It indeed takes a large number of players. But I've seen it happen more than once. It only seems to happen near the end of a campaign when DC needs to get out of the deep 3rd place hole they have been finding themselves in.

MAOofDC

Bergzorn wrote: »

Wait, so a large portion of the faction is able to coordinate to log in/out within a few minutes but (seemingly from the post) not able to coordinate their actions on the map to 'legitimately' gain points?

It's not hard to type in zone eval in 2 mins zone out of Cyro for 5 minutes. I mean it's not like there will be a queue when they have a low pop bonus.

MAOofDC

JobooAGS wrote: »

I’ve been asking for a change to the low pop bonus for a while as all 3 factions abuse it one way or another, but people only really bring it up when DC has it -_-

I have too giving a fraction a score bonus is stupid. AP bonus sure maybe a health buff but triple score value?!? That's some ***. If you don't have the numbers in a consistent manner then you deserve to lose the campaign.

The reason people only seem to bring it up when DC does it is because DC consistently abuses it. There are times that AD has the low pop bonus but it usually when the EP late night early morning crew logs on and they gate lock the map because they still have 3 bars but the other two only have one. I haven't seen EP with a low pop bonus in over a year.

merevie

When a faction loses by such an enormous margin I fail to see why you think it impacts the score?
Ad lock the map at night... we just going to sail right past that issue?
So your preference is at night, when Ad take everything, that those 20 remaining Dc should what, feel totally dis empowered and give up?
Why not address the cause of the problem that no Dc want to play then instead of going after the few that do and calling them 'exploiters'? for living in the southern hemisphere?

MAOofDC

merevie wrote: »

When a faction loses by such an enormous margin I fail to see why you think it impacts the score?
Ad lock the map at night... we just going to sail right past that issue?
So your preference is at night, when Ad take everything, that those 20 remaining Dc should what, feel totally dis empowered and give up?
Why not address the cause of the problem that no Dc want to play then instead of going after the few that do and calling them 'exploiters'? for living in the southern hemisphere?

Except DC doesn't lose the campaign they exploit their way to second place. Also DC did play and often had a poplock faction middays. Then Fangrush went to a different server and his fans followed him.

Please quote where I said AD should win all the time. I just want a fair shake, and not be punished because DC decided to not show up to the fight. I don't see EP complaining when they overwhelm both of the other factions every night.

A number of AD players I play with are from Australia, New Zealand and Brazil. They complain that DC is using the low pop bonus to their advantage. So it's not a southern hemisphere issue.

caeliusstarbreaker

MAOofDC wrote: »

merevie wrote: »

When a faction loses by such an enormous margin I fail to see why you think it impacts the score?
Ad lock the map at night... we just going to sail right past that issue?
So your preference is at night, when Ad take everything, that those 20 remaining Dc should what, feel totally dis empowered and give up?
Why not address the cause of the problem that no Dc want to play then instead of going after the few that do and calling them 'exploiters'? for living in the southern hemisphere?

Except DC doesn't lose the campaign they exploit their way to second place. Also DC did play and often had a poplock faction middays. Then Fangrush went to a different server and his fans followed him.

Please quote where I said AD should win all the time. I just want a fair shake, and not be punished because DC decided to not show up to the fight. I don't see EP complaining when they overwhelm both of the other factions every night.

A number of AD players I play with are from Australia, New Zealand and Brazil. They complain that DC is using the low pop bonus to their advantage. So it's not a southern hemisphere issue.

They complain about it... so it must be true.

Delphinia

Well said, @MAOofDC . AvAvA is just a wee bit broken in this game anyway... for so many reasons...
I will not say it was deliberate, however, I will say that I did find it slightly interesting and somewhat humorous that they were able to muster the troops, after being fairly absent a majority of the camp, and coincidentally and conveniently end up at Fare alongside EP for the last hours of the campaign...
I heard this lasted for hours, as I decided it wasn’t worth the lagging and crashing, I just logged after being once again sent back into queue...
Before I logged out, (and after at least 12-15 attempts to get back in , only to be completely sent out of Cyro and forced to re queue, then to finally get back in for about another 5-10 minutes of actually being able to fight.. only to be kicked out again...and just say to hell with it and log), both factions were not fighting anywhere else on the map... both just at Fare... it was so laggy and I wasn’t the only one to get put back to pve to be forced to re queue... I probably wasn’t the only one to finally give up after numerous attempts to stay in either...
The whole mess is really just not a real or honest competition.. this is why campaigns really don’t mean anything.. not saying this is what happened here, but when people want to manipulate anything (and I'm not just referring to low pop bonuses), they can and do...

Ackwalan

Good for DC. AD has been using DC as fodder for some time now, it's good DC has finally stopped being AD's lacky. Hopefully DC sticks with it and fights for DC, and not follows what AD tells them.

pauld1_ESO

There are so many things wrong with the way campaigns are done lol.

Beaverton

To fix this particular problem (If it is real), all you have to do base the pop bonus on a rolling average for the pop instead of basing it at a single point in time. That is a single calculation for each faction once a minute. EZ PZ.

The other issue is that the faction with the middle pop is screwed. They get no bonus and the higher pop faction most often attacks them because they actually want fights while generally leaving the low pop team alone.

If I ran the circus, I would probably leave the low pop AP bonus but change the score bonuses to a sliding scale based on actual pop.

An extreme solution would be to only award score for keeps, outposts and resources you capture during the scoring period, i.e. you don't get score for just holding on to keeps, resources and outposts. Scrolls would give score for holding them. In order to reward defending more you might have to boost the AP for defending. SO if a faction doesn't do anything, they get no score but a low pop faction could get a lot of score for taking a ton of resources. THis would make "night capping" and "day capping" less impactful.

I suppose though that factions could work out a trading keeps exploit.

JobooAGS

MAOofDC wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

I’ve been asking for a change to the low pop bonus for a while as all 3 factions abuse it one way or another, but people only really bring it up when DC has it -_-

I have too giving a fraction a score bonus is stupid. AP bonus sure maybe a health buff but triple score value?!? That's some ***. If you don't have the numbers in a consistent manner then you deserve to lose the campaign.

The reason people only seem to bring it up when DC does it is because DC consistently abuses it. There are times that AD has the low pop bonus but it usually when the EP late night early morning crew logs on and they gate lock the map because they still have 3 bars but the other two only have one. I haven't seen EP with a low pop bonus in over a year.

Whenever I log in to Gray Host on DC there seems like there is no one there vs a pop locked AD and EP. Literally all GH DC really is is just 2 maybe 3 guilds. Idt I seen DC pop locked for the past 3 or so campaigns even at times 3 barred during MYM (which is astonishing).

Perhaps it is not so much that DC is exploiting but more so that DC is non existent and a few guilds are exploiting.

Joy_Division

LOL. I don't know what's sadder; that people who stoop to such trash or that they'd do so when the "reward" for winning is trash.

I'd ask what took people so long to exploit this obvious flaw in the scoring mechanic, but it, just like every other AvAvA complaint ever raised, ultimately boils down to there simply not being enough people that play the game. If there were actually ques, then nobody would log off 2 minutes before the score is tabulated, or "faction hop," or trade emps, or all the other shenanigans people take advantage of.

idk

MAOofDC wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Either way, it's not exploiting or cheating just because the system isn't well thought out.

Logging out for 5 minutes to get a 300+ score for a eval then logging back in is exploitive and a form of cheating. That's what I'm talking about. In two or three days DC made up well over 1000 points by logging off and then logging back in. How in all that is holy is that fair and NOT an exploit?

Yes I'm talking about PC/NA.

No offense but do you have actual information to support this is being done? If so, report this to Zos via in-game means and have them sort it out. Take SS or video of anything that will support the claim for them to review. Include names of players in you report to Zos. If groups of players are doing this, and it would take large groups to do this, then Zos will need to figure out a means to counter it. Also, since it would take large numbers of players to join in on this action to tip the scales proof should be easy to come by.

How am I supposed to report hundreds of players? It indeed takes a large number of players. But I've seen it happen more than once. It only seems to happen near the end of a campaign when DC needs to get out of the deep 3rd place hole they have been finding themselves in.

@MAOofDC

Odd that you are of DC complaining about DC but I digress.

There should be no problem reporting a few players with actual information to back the claim and then pointing out to Zos this is a widespread issue. If there is a real issue Zos can use the information on those few to find most of the rest. That is what they did with multiple exploiting problems in the past.

No offense but in the OP it is clearly stated this has happened multiple times and is made out to sound like it happens constantly. Now it is suggested it has happened only once for sure and speculate it is happening more than that.

So again, report it to Zos via the in-game tool. Complaining in the forums with vague accusations and speculation as to what is happening will not change anything if something is really happening.

danno8

Beaverton wrote: »

To fix this particular problem (If it is real), all you have to do base the pop bonus on a rolling average for the pop instead of basing it at a single point in time. That is a single calculation for each faction once a minute. EZ PZ.

The other issue is that the faction with the middle pop is screwed. They get no bonus and the higher pop faction most often attacks them because they actually want fights while generally leaving the low pop team alone.

If I ran the circus, I would probably leave the low pop AP bonus but change the score bonuses to a sliding scale based on actual pop.

An extreme solution would be to only award score for keeps, outposts and resources you capture during the scoring period, i.e. you don't get score for just holding on to keeps, resources and outposts. Scrolls would give score for holding them. In order to reward defending more you might have to boost the AP for defending. SO if a faction doesn't do anything, they get no score but a low pop faction could get a lot of score for taking a ton of resources. THis would make "night capping" and "day capping" less impactful.

I suppose though that factions could work out a trading keeps exploit.

Or just have the eval happen once every 5 minutes, instead of once an hour.

caeliusstarbreaker

What’s more realistic here... “hundreds of players” logging off and on every 25 min... or you just being wrong?

MAOofDC

idk wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

idk wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Either way, it's not exploiting or cheating just because the system isn't well thought out.

Logging out for 5 minutes to get a 300+ score for a eval then logging back in is exploitive and a form of cheating. That's what I'm talking about. In two or three days DC made up well over 1000 points by logging off and then logging back in. How in all that is holy is that fair and NOT an exploit?

Yes I'm talking about PC/NA.

No offense but do you have actual information to support this is being done? If so, report this to Zos via in-game means and have them sort it out. Take SS or video of anything that will support the claim for them to review. Include names of players in you report to Zos. If groups of players are doing this, and it would take large groups to do this, then Zos will need to figure out a means to counter it. Also, since it would take large numbers of players to join in on this action to tip the scales proof should be easy to come by.

How am I supposed to report hundreds of players? It indeed takes a large number of players. But I've seen it happen more than once. It only seems to happen near the end of a campaign when DC needs to get out of the deep 3rd place hole they have been finding themselves in.

@MAOofDC

Odd that you are of DC complaining about DC but I digress.

My handle is older than this game. It DC as in Washington DC. I caught a lot of crap about the name for the last 6 years.

ChimpyChumpy

lol I play PCNA greyhost on 7 DC characters. Ok maybe only 6 to 8 hours a week, but I have never heard anyone try and organize a mass log off. [snip]

[Edited to remove Bashing]

MAOofDC

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

What’s more realistic here... “hundreds of players” logging off and on every 25 min... or you just being wrong?

It once a hour but you would know that if you were in Cyrodiil more often.

MAOofDC

JobooAGS wrote: »

MAOofDC wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

I’ve been asking for a change to the low pop bonus for a while as all 3 factions abuse it one way or another, but people only really bring it up when DC has it -_-

I have too giving a fraction a score bonus is stupid. AP bonus sure maybe a health buff but triple score value?!? That's some ***. If you don't have the numbers in a consistent manner then you deserve to lose the campaign.

The reason people only seem to bring it up when DC does it is because DC consistently abuses it. There are times that AD has the low pop bonus but it usually when the EP late night early morning crew logs on and they gate lock the map because they still have 3 bars but the other two only have one. I haven't seen EP with a low pop bonus in over a year.

Whenever I log in to Gray Host on DC there seems like there is no one there vs a pop locked AD and EP. Literally all GH DC really is is just 2 maybe 3 guilds. Idt I seen DC pop locked for the past 3 or so campaigns even at times 3 barred during MYM (which is astonishing).

Perhaps it is not so much that DC is exploiting but more so that DC is non existent and a few guilds are exploiting.

Then the fact that they can make up over 1000 point deficit in 3 or 4 days even more egregious.

MAOofDC

Ackwalan wrote: »

Good for DC. AD has been using DC as fodder for some time now, it's good DC has finally stopped being AD's lacky. Hopefully DC sticks with it and fights for DC, and not follows what AD tells them.

If you want to go there okay DC only moves on AD when EP attacks. DC will let EP keep their scrolls for days and rarely attempt to deemp. Team purple is a regular occurrence and I'm not talking about both factions just happen to be attacking two different keeps. I'm talking about attacking the same keep and taking care not to attack each other. The northern part of the map doesn't change much either it stays fairly stagnant. The southern half of the map changes at least 5 times a day.

MAOofDC

ChimpyChumpy wrote: »

lol I play PCNA greyhost on 7 DC characters. Ok maybe only 6 to 8 hours a week, but I have never heard anyone try and organize a mass log off. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum. The conspiracy theories are out of this world.

Weird that DC often get the low pop bonus for the eval yet has no bonus for most of an hour I guess DCs internet all must cut out at the same time.

All of that really doesn't matter the real problem is low pop bonus shouldn't give a massive score bonus. In what world is that fair and balanced?