Redguard buff?

Playboy_Shrek

do you all think redguard need a small buff?. I think the reduction on the cost of weapon skills is not that good to be their strongest point here. even with using a weapon spammable its meh compared to breton 7% total reduction. should they like get instead of 15 minutes on food, which is meh. like an extra 15% effectiveness on food?. or maybe make the weapon reduction also apply to blocking and bashing?. and maybe make it 10-12% instead of 8%?.

or maybe just give them 3000 max stamina since some other races that don't necessarily supposed to be mainly stamina dps like redguard (imperial) get the same amount of stamina.

zvavi

Tbh I think I prefer red guard passives on imperial for tank... But ye, Bretons op.

YandereGirlfriend

Redguards definitely need something (along, of course, with Bosmer and Khajiit).

Somewhere along the road to ESO they somehow lost their historic resistance to Poison and Disease and the fact that they have no elemental resistance nor any health bonus makes them the de facto most fragile race in Tamriel which is absolutely in contravention of all established lore.

Adrenaline Rush has been their signature ability since... forever, but it is but a pale imitation of what it has been in the mainline TES games.

Redguards are also supposed to be the best physical warriors in all of Tamriel yet they receive but scant actual bonuses to damage, losing out to Orcs (probably their closest peer in terms of fighters) and randomly Dunmer as well.

Barring more creative solutions, easy and lore-friendly tweaks would be:

• Change Weapon Ability cost reduction to at least 129 Weapon Damage (per the lore it ought to be Dunmer at 129 and Redguards and Orcs at 258)
• Change snare reduction (which is completely useless) to Poison and Disease resistance (but not immunity to those status effects, as Argonians and Bosmer already have that covered in ESO)
• Modest buff to the Stamina return of Adrenaline Rush (reduce cooldown to 4 seconds)

Playboy_Shrek

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Redguards definitely need something (along, of course, with Bosmer and Khajiit).

Somewhere along the road to ESO they somehow lost their historic resistance to Poison and Disease and the fact that they have no elemental resistance nor any health bonus makes them the de facto most fragile race in Tamriel which is absolutely in contravention of all established lore.

Adrenaline Rush has been their signature ability since... forever, but it is but a pale imitation of what it has been in the mainline TES games.

Redguards are also supposed to be the best physical warriors in all of Tamriel yet they receive but scant actual bonuses to damage, losing out to Orcs (probably their closest peer in terms of fighters) and randomly Dunmer as well.

Barring more creative solutions, easy and lore-friendly tweaks would be:

• Change Weapon Ability cost reduction to at least 129 Weapon Damage (per the lore it ought to be Dunmer at 129 and Redguards and Orcs at 258)
• Change snare reduction (which is completely useless) to Poison and Disease resistance (but not immunity to those status effects, as Argonians and Bosmer already have that covered in ESO)
• Modest buff to the Stamina return of Adrenaline Rush (reduce cooldown to 4 seconds)

recovery of mag/stam is the easiest thing to mask in eso. from cp, items or team mates synergies and items. esp in group play. so a lot of their passives is just meh.

LuxLunae

redguard passive is worthless..

a reduction is trash....trust me on this...

Stamina wise definitely worthless...anybody who thinks otherwise is just experiencing the placebo effect.

You would think you could invest in other resources but that's just not the case.

it is only for weapon abilities...which stam wise are cheap anyways.


The problem is this game revolves around Damage Dealing...

DPSO.....

Kory

Maybe increase their percentages in the Martial Training passive, as Redguards are often masters of combat.

Maybe something like :
Rank III - Unlocked at Redguard 30
Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 16% (instead of 8%). Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 20%(instead of 15%).

Playboy_Shrek

Kory wrote: »

Maybe increase their percentages in the Martial Training passive, as Redguards are often masters of combat.

Maybe something like :
Rank III - Unlocked at Redguard 30
Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 16% (instead of 8%). Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 20%(instead of 15%).

the snares one is just terrible. they need some damage. why not just make the 16% apply to blocking and bashing. and give them 6% increase damage dealt with weapons?. aka skills. LA/HA from weapons.

Kory

Playboy_Shrek wrote: »

Kory wrote: »

Maybe increase their percentages in the Martial Training passive, as Redguards are often masters of combat.

Maybe something like :
Rank III - Unlocked at Redguard 30
Reduces the cost of weapon abilities by 16% (instead of 8%). Reduces the effectiveness of snares applied to you by 20%(instead of 15%).

the snares one is just terrible. they need some damage. why not just make the 16% apply to blocking and bashing. and give them 6% increase damage dealt with weapons?. aka skills. LA/HA from weapons.

I wouldn't mind a damage bonus, but I think way better resource bonuses could go a long way for the damage a redguard can do. One of my character's is a Redguard Dual wield Stamina nightblade type, and I would appreciate better stamina passives than damage, because you can do good damage but the stamina bonuses aren't as noticeably effective compared to Nord, Orc, or Imperial as a tank for example.

YandereGirlfriend

Snare reduction is a wasted bonus that is unnoticeable in combat yet takes up valuable "power budget" on the ZOS racial ability spreadsheet.

The only way to actually make it worthwhile is to boost it to at least a 50% reduction (outright immunity would be better). And even then it is a exclusively a PvP bonus whereas all other races (save for Bosmer...) have passives that are useful in all situations.

Redguards are also the one race that receives only a single line of stat bonuses. All other races have at least two (though Argonians are also weak in this regard...). And this is not offset by the strength of their other passives.

Celestro

I've honestly thought Redguard use a bit of a buff but I do admit I am prone to being bias with them being my favorite race.

Still, as pointed out, the number one issue is snare reduction. I understand maybe certain limited options offering a bonus that only applies to one side of gameplay but not race passives which should have an impact in PvE and PvP.

I personally dont have a huge issue with the cost reduction to weapon abilities but do agree it increased quite a bit more, even without the snare taking up part of the power budget. Granted, a slight concern there is that the bonus applies to weapon ultimates as well, which is unique and likable. If only all of them were equally noteworthy in more types of gameplay (particularly the stamina ultimates).

MashmalloMan

Celestro wrote: »

I've honestly thought Redguard use a bit of a buff but I do admit I am prone to being bias with them being my favorite race.

Still, as pointed out, the number one issue is snare reduction. I understand maybe certain limited options offering a bonus that only applies to one side of gameplay but not race passives which should have an impact in PvE and PvP.

I personally dont have a huge issue with the cost reduction to weapon abilities but do agree it increased quite a bit more, even without the snare taking up part of the power budget. Granted, a slight concern there is that the bonus applies to weapon ultimates as well, which is unique and likable. If only all of them were equally noteworthy in more types of gameplay (particularly the stamina ultimates).

From a pve standpoint RG was only ever viable in comparison to Orc closer to it's change, Stam DK and Stam Sorc used it really well since they so heavily relied on weapon abilities, since they were the only 2 without class spammables.

Today.. Both classes have class spammables. This is the problem with building such a specifc niche like "weapon ability cost reduction". ZOS alrieady admitted and acknowledged a large standing issue of class identity which has yet to be completely addressed. It's obvious over time, as they address this, there is less and less reasons to use only weapon abilities, especially for stamina that fills sometimes half of their bar with out of class optiopns. It's not like weapon skill lines are getting more abilities, however world/guild skill lines like the Psijic Order should and will be released over time. If spell crafting ever becomes a thing, RG is even more dead.

Look at some of the options I've gotten as a stam sorc vs the patch RG was changed. Crystal Weapon, Bound Armaments, Crushing Weapon, Silver Shards, Soul Trap, Lightweight Beast Trap, Trapping Webs, etc... Whats funny is on the flip side, less weapon skills are even worth it, Poison Injection is no longer a requirement, Twin Slashes is pretty garbage for damage, Endless Hail lasts 14s instead of 12s (less casts), Weapon Ultimates are mostly crap for pve, as a sorc I always use Greater Atro over Ballista.. practically every stam sorc does.

Even looking at it from a meta perspective, overall sustain depends on the patch your in, while damage does not and it's why Orc/Dark Elf/High Elf and even Khajiit feel timeless. There is other ways to build for sustain, either from groups, enchants, etc, there is no way to change that 8% cost reduction into damage when you sustain too much.

We had 1 patch where AOE dots cost an arm and a leg, but then the next they were brought in line. This puts all sustain races in a weird place where they may be viable 1 patch, but not the next simply because high cost is no longer a factor.

Celestro

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Celestro wrote: »

I've honestly thought Redguard use a bit of a buff but I do admit I am prone to being bias with them being my favorite race.

Still, as pointed out, the number one issue is snare reduction. I understand maybe certain limited options offering a bonus that only applies to one side of gameplay but not race passives which should have an impact in PvE and PvP.

I personally dont have a huge issue with the cost reduction to weapon abilities but do agree it increased quite a bit more, even without the snare taking up part of the power budget. Granted, a slight concern there is that the bonus applies to weapon ultimates as well, which is unique and likable. If only all of them were equally noteworthy in more types of gameplay (particularly the stamina ultimates).

From a pve standpoint RG was only ever viable in comparison to Orc closer to it's change, Stam DK and Stam Sorc used it really well since they so heavily relied on weapon abilities, since they were the only 2 without class spammables.

Today.. Both classes have class spammables. This is the problem with building such a specifc niche like "weapon ability cost reduction". ZOS alrieady admitted and acknowledged a large standing issue of class identity which has yet to be completely addressed. It's obvious over time, as they address this, there is less and less reasons to use only weapon abilities, especially for stamina that fills sometimes half of their bar with out of class optiopns. It's not like weapon skill lines are getting more abilities, however world/guild skill lines like the Psijic Order should and will be released over time. If spell crafting ever becomes a thing, RG is even more dead.

Look at some of the options I've gotten as a stam sorc vs the patch RG was changed. Crystal Weapon, Bound Armaments, Crushing Weapon, Silver Shards, Soul Trap, Lightweight Beast Trap, Trapping Webs, etc... Whats funny is on the flip side, less weapon skills are even worth it, Poison Injection is no longer a requirement, Twin Slashes is pretty garbage for damage, Endless Hail lasts 14s instead of 12s (less casts), Weapon Ultimates are mostly crap for pve, as a sorc I always use Greater Atro over Ballista.. practically every stam sorc does.

Even looking at it from a meta perspective, overall sustain depends on the patch your in, while damage does not and it's why Orc/Dark Elf/High Elf and even Khajiit feel timeless. There is other ways to build for sustain, either from groups, enchants, etc, there is no way to change that 8% cost reduction into damage when you sustain too much.

We had 1 patch where AOE dots cost an arm and a leg, but then the next they were brought in line. This puts all sustain races in a weird place where they may be viable 1 patch, but not the next simply because high cost is no longer a factor.

Yep I definitely agree. With stamsorc being my favorite class, it was a combination that I opted to use regardless of the meta favoring orcs. And it practically keeps getting that much worse every patch as far as sustain goes between the even more sustain heavy emphasis sorcs have in their passives mixed with redguard's.

What I wish is to eliminate that whole back and forth nonsense as far as sustain goes from patch to patch is to give each class multiple choices of passives that fit them from damage and sustain to defense and utility. You can only choose say three out of maybe five options but it would allow everyone to opt for sustain, damage or both (or even neither) depending on what they're doing. That makes it likely to have most races not have much of a difference between one another depending on how such would get implemented on one hand. But on the other hand, a lot of people opt for the meta choices regardless. Still, I dont see such customization being an issue when balance between races is difficult to strike when certain things, particularly sustain issues, change every now and again.

With this as an option, at the very least, it could also open the doors to some races possessing the Poison/Disease resistances that many desire (didn't know Redguards also had Poison Resistance haha) but cant really afford to have without sacrificing something else as unfortunately balance and power budgets reign over ESO lore and such.

Kittytravel

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Barring more creative solutions, easy and lore-friendly tweaks would be

Just figured I'd point out lore friendly doesn't matter. Since y'know... somehow Bosmer lost their ability to be better at Stealth. And somehow Vampires just get given a 5 piece set bonus as a passive over Bosmer.

Luckylancer

So many people miss the points. Food buff is supposed to be nearly meaningless. Look at all 1st passives of every class. Useless but flavour passives.

Khajit, bosmer and redguard are not horrible. They are just clearly a bit worse. They still need buff.

I think redguard's cost reduction is better than all other boring passives. ADrenaline rush can be buffed. Trappings of Invigoration like effect would be unique and effective. When you cast an ability that costs resources while under 25% Stamina, you restore 11350 Stamina. This effect can occur once every 45 seconds. Or similar effect with HP.

Kittytravel wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Barring more creative solutions, easy and lore-friendly tweaks would be

Just figured I'd point out lore friendly doesn't matter. Since y'know... somehow Bosmer lost their ability to be better at Stealth. And somehow Vampires just get given a 5 piece set bonus as a passive over Bosmer.

When I last checked in skyrim vampires had stealth bonus but bosmers did not had any. Hmmm

YandereGirlfriend

@Kittytravel I take your overall point but I do also somewhat sympathize with the developers in one small regard.

There is so much lore for each race that distilling every aspect of it into a small handful of passives is not always a straightforward process. Something is bound to be lost in that translation, as it were.

Now, people well-versed in the lore (and who have played prior mainline TES) games know that some aspects of the lore are more important than others (such as the Bosmer association with stealth...) but I am not so sure that many of the developers have played enough of those games to really know the difference.

Classically, there were three thief or thief-adjacent races: Khajiit, Bosmer, and Argonians, but in ESO the developers gave that honor to only the Khajiit, potentially because they didn't want several redundant racial passives.

It is, of course, lazy. There are ways to accentuate stealth gameplay for all three races without resorting to identical "Reduce detection range by 3 meters" buffs. Bosmer, as you say, could have received the 50% reduction on time-to-stealth and/or the stealthed movement speed buffs that vampires received.

@Luckylancer I agree that they're not horrible but they are clearly behind the BiS races due primarily to the weakness of sustain as a racial buff.

IMO, no cooldown should be longer than like 15 seconds and I definitely would not want to see such a lengthy cooldown attached to a racial bonus. Redguards also don't need two sustain buffs. As long as they are pigeon-holed into that, they will never be in the conversation for BiS at anything, which is a failure of design.

Lastly, Bosmer received bonuses to Stealth, Lockpicking, Pickpocketing, Light Armor, and Alchemy in Skyrim. That is about as thief-like as it gets.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

My favorite race to play has always been redguard in the TES. I agree that they lack dps compared to orc, but trust me, when I switched my Templar for redguard to an orc I notice the drop in sustain, along with the damage increase. I can't speak to the snare ability since I don't really play PvP, where that undoubtedly matters more, but I think an easy way to buff redguard is to increase the total stamina the race gets.

hakan

lol used to be bis race now just ehh..something about tables turning