PVE vs PVP - Development Imbalance.

Snowgoons

PVE players get new content every 3 months.

1. year of events
2. Expansions
3. New classes (which i guess can come to cyrodiil but still locked behind PVE only content),
4. new skills
5. new zones
6. new quests
7. new voice acting.....
8. Holiday themed events
9. the list could go on, ending in: Elder Scrolls 6 is gonna drop eventually and again unless there's some drastic change in the ES games, PVE only content.

PVP players have gotten:

1. BGs they didn't ask for as a bandaid for a failing cyrodiil.

2. A hammer/new siege no one asked for.

3. A declining experience as a whole. (Can't siege resource towers, things used to upgrade with the keeps in cool ways, most frustrating: the skills don't go off due to a new lag that wasn't here previously, people always spammed AoE's and never had these issues until recently)

What's going on?

Snowgoons

I guess toss IC between the two of them, it's neither a good PVP area or PVE area, it just exist.

VaranisArano

Well, if the AOE spam turns out to be the silver bullet to fix performance, PVP might be getting a full class rework that no one wanted.

Snowgoons

VaranisArano wrote: »

Well, if the AOE spam turns out to be the silver bullet to fix performance, PVP might be getting a full class rework that no one wanted.

ugh i didn't even think about this so true -_-

I'd personally like to see the old school approach, where GMs actually played the game beside you and were available for PVP side of things.

Even if not 24/7 is it that hard to just have someone in game experiencing what is happening and document it, then create a video showing exactly what's going on.

"ESO Cyrodiil"

"As you can see here, there is an input delay with the skills we tested on live NA servers next to several different people and streamers that can verify our integrity.

We see the issue, were going to gradually roll back PVP in a test environment and see which patch caused the issue.

bare with us."

^ you know how much good something like that would do for the PVP players, not even talking about how were due new exciting stuff in cyrodiil or even just season themed events as well.

Why can't one get something towards their indrik in pvp? Why?

There was like 70 indriks, not one could be pvp related? not one??!?

It's a complete slap in my and other PVP players, faces.

ayu_fever

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
[snip]

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Runefang

All that PvE content you listed I never asked for either. I just want more trials.

Ectheliontnacil

We'll as far as I can tell this isn't really a pvp vs pve problem. The problem is that ZOS doesn't invest in endgame content.
Most of the content they pump out is oriented towards new players. Very few vets actually do the quest lines.
They just want to get people interested in the game with the newly released zones, make them blow a small fortune on crown crates and then let the lag force them to quit the game.

All the content endgame players get with every update is a painful gear/skill grind to keep you occupied for a bit. But 1 trial a year is nothing and pvp hasn't seen anything new in years really.

kargen27

PvE survives in part on new content. Players repeating that content also helps keep PvE going. PvP would be hurt by new zones not helped. New content for PvP would spread an already thin population.

The best way to keep PvP fresh is through players adapting to each other.

Sanctum74

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
[snip]

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

[snip] Previous elder scrolls games were strictly pve, but eso is clearly both and was heavily advertised as such. Everyone has a right to complain [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Crow_IX

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
[snip]

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

no one is allowed to complain? meanwhile we all bought the game and enjoyed it for what is once was and for some reason we are still here supporting it, so dont you sit here saying no one is allowed to complain. just because pve is the mass majority doesnt mean butcher pvp. we are part of the community too and we by all mean have every right to speak out. [snip] youre not entitled as a pver, we are all part of this community and there are several different ways to play the game, its not any one else's fault but your own if you refuse to learn complicated mechanics or even pvp. just cause you dont like it doesnt mean its not a huge factor of the game.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

doomette

ayu_fever wrote: »

[snip]

Literally speak for yourself. Plenty of players care. And considering the devs are trying out a whole new combat mechanic to see if it improves performance, something that may lead to huge changes with how a ton of skills work, I’d say they care a bit too.

[snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

TequilaFire

I miss games like the original Red Dead Online where the devs not only joined us, there was actually an achievement for killing a Rockstar dev.

Sylvermynx

There's a major disconnect between the pve/pvp folks in this game. I won't ever pvp again, but I'm not advocating the removal of same from ESO. In fact, I do think it's pretty shabby that pvp has had nothing new in.... um.... forever?

I wouldn't honestly like a whole year devoted to pvp, but it wouldn't be an issue for me really. I wouldn't touch anything in that year, but hell folks - there's ALWAYS stuff to do. Unless of course your entire game life revolves around new content.

Mine doesn't.

Aptonoth

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
[snip]

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

Imagine how awesome cyrodil could be if no pvp. Imagine how great pve balance could be if they didn't get screwed by pvp. Imagine how much more true to lore races could become instead of needing each faction to have a race for each roll.

I hope Zenimax puts pvp to pasture and dedicates more to story and dungeons no shifty pvp events to waste our time on. Maybe keep battlegrounds as it can be fun to pug on occasion.

Sanctum74

Aptonoth wrote: »

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
[snip]

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

Imagine how awesome cyrodil could be if no pvp. Imagine how great pve balance could be if they didn't get screwed by pvp. Imagine how much more true to lore races could become instead of needing each faction to have a race for each roll.

I hope Zenimax puts pvp to pasture and dedicates more to story and dungeons no shifty pvp events to waste our time on. Maybe keep battlegrounds as it can be fun to pug on occasion.

Sounds boring

WhyMustItBe

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

Combine this with the fact that, depending on which market statistics you follow, PVE in MMO's is more popular by a significant margin in general.

There are plenty of games that cater to the PVP crowd. Games like Overwatch that is arguably the reason Blizzard scrapped their PVE-centric "WoW 2" game Titan.

In fact the gaming market as a whole has arguably shifted towards the whole competition-centric emergent model of gameplay, probably because it is easier to develop and doesn't require so many jobs for things like writers, quest and encounter designers, and actual content since it is a "make your own fun" type of system for the most part.

This trend is so abundant it almost seems a little selfish for people to expect a niche RPG genre franchise like TES to remake its entire focus and image just to satisfy this one insatiable audience and transform it into yet another PVP-centric title.

PVP in this game is, has been, and always will be a secondary focus.

Sylvermynx

Aptonoth wrote: »

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
literally no one cares. deal with it or move on.

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

Imagine how awesome cyrodil could be if no pvp. Imagine how great pve balance could be if they didn't get screwed by pvp. Imagine how much more true to lore races could become instead of needing each faction to have a race for each roll.

I hope Zenimax puts pvp to pasture and dedicates more to story and dungeons no shifty pvp events to waste our time on. Maybe keep battlegrounds as it can be fun to pug on occasion.

Um.... Cyrodiil is a HUGE empty space. There's a few wolves. There's a few resource nodes. There's some chokepoints where you're supposed to do whatever to fight the "enemy" (*rolls eyes*). Otherwise, the entire zone is practically empty. I ran 4 characters through it for the fishing stuff. I saw almost NO ONE (eh, have to admit I picked low pop zones and early in my day which is US MT).

I'm not interested at all in pvp (been there done that in other MMOs, not going there again), and believe me, the next time I take people in there to fish, if pvp happens, I'm simply going to let whoever kill my character. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

ClawOfTheTwoMoons

Aptonoth wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Aptonoth wrote: »

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

despite the mmo elder scrolls game having minimal pvp content, no one is allowed to complain about the lack of support and features of the pvp because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).
thats like playing super mario for the platforming and item collecting but complaining about the swimming.
[snip]

pvp players are starved for SOMETHING, that is true.
theres also people who only pvp in ESO, which is not the intended or the correct way to play this game, again because of what the IP is at its core (pve paradise).

pvp players need to just move to a game that supports pvp and stop trying to make ESO cater to pvp’ers or embrace the correct way to play any elder scrolls game: PVE.

Imagine how awesome cyrodil could be if no pvp. Imagine how great pve balance could be if they didn't get screwed by pvp. Imagine how much more true to lore races could become instead of needing each faction to have a race for each roll.

I hope Zenimax puts pvp to pasture and dedicates more to story and dungeons no shifty pvp events to waste our time on. Maybe keep battlegrounds as it can be fun to pug on occasion.

Sounds boring

[Quoted post was removed]

[snip]
I play both and enjoy both. I use to be a pve only player, but once i started just playing pvp causally with my guild mates and going to ic for small scale I ended up loving it. [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

Daviiid_ESO

Well they hinted for elsweyr the end of the three banner war right, just an unexpected plot twist that lag would been the end of it

SshadowSscale

kargen27 wrote: »

PvE survives in part on new content. Players repeating that content also helps keep PvE going. PvP would be hurt by new zones not helped. New content for PvP would spread an already thin population.

The best way to keep PvP fresh is through players adapting to each other.

An update to pvp does not mean a new zone.... If zos really wants to milk the cash cow they could start doing something like a seasonal pass for pvp.... Giving pvp players more rewards based on People killed or something.... They could update rewards of the worthy amd give bgs amd actual mmr system and scoreboard with at least decent rewards for those at the top.... New rewards earned through achievments/ap or telvar.... A bg map or 2 hell you could eventually start doing rotating maps and game modes for bgs.... Some new bg gear sets etc..... There are a lot of ways to give pvp players something worth their time and in some ways zos can actually make some money of it too.... It does not have to be a new zone.... Just something new fun and refreshing..... I would also add pvp specific seasonal events but then pve players would complain that they HAVE to take part in it and is not fair.... No one is forsing anyone but oh well

deleted221106-002999

I play and enjoy most aspects of the game (lag etc permitting). From my perspective I think zos would've loved for pvp to be the actual end-game as originally planned. PVE zones/chapters etc probably cost a heap to produce but pvp is kind of self-sustaining (or, arguably, should be) as the variation comes from players constantly adapting to each other.

But an AP bonus scroll like xp one(s) would be nice. Other gimmicks like hammers are .... meh.

idk

Snowgoons wrote: »

1. BGs they didn't ask for as a bandaid for a failing cyrodiil.

Actually, players did ask for instanced PvP starting shortly after the game launched, maybe before.

The game was PvE focused from the start considering most of the initial development was PvE and the first two additions to the game were PvE. Considering Zos was not able to monetize PvP, they had to move BGs to the base game, there is not much incentive for them to do much work on developing new PvP content.

JTD

I guess the money doesn't come from pvp players.

bmnoble

PVE is a larger source of money, don't think its any more complicated than that.

If they were to release a new PVP DLC and the performance were as bad as it is with the games existing PVP content, you can just imagine the headache that would give their customer support team with people likely to ask for refunds.

That and PVP only works when you have enough players if they are not careful how they spread their PVP player base they might not have enough players in each content type resulting in complaints about a lack of PVP in their PVP zones.

notyuu

Snowgoons wrote: »

What's going on?

Simple...the fact that the entire combined pvp nonsence makes up....well what feels like about 5% of the player base, meaning the other 95% has to be kept actually happy as....they are were the money is

two new zones with quests and blueprints: keeps the casuals and craters happy
1-2 new trials/arenas: for the more high end player to smack on vet
four dungeons: for middling players to challenge themselves
some new pvp thing: to attempt to keep the pvpers placated

and this isn't even the mentioning the balance headache that the..vastly different game styles cause when they clash....even if it seems most of the wider spread changes to things are done with pvp in mind.

on the side note of server performance in PvP and "why don't they just do what they did during MYM"
what they did in MYM was add a bulk of the trial, dungeon and arena server resources to the PvP segments, which made cyro somewhat smooth...at the cost of rendering dungeons, arenas and trials basically being an unplayable mess.

doomette

WhyMustItBe wrote: »

ayu_fever wrote: »

elder scrolls is a pve paradise IP.
always has been and always will be.
period.

This trend is so abundant it almost seems a little selfish for people to expect a niche RPG genre franchise like TES to remake its entire focus and image just to satisfy this one insatiable audience and transform it into yet another PVP-centric title.

PVP in this game is, has been, and always will be a secondary focus.

Okay, but it’s also selfish that some here are advocating the removal of PVP from this game, even though it’s long been a part of it. *That* would fundamentally change the game for a large number of people too (not just hardcore sweaties but dabblers too).
Yes, the focus is mostly PVE and that makes sense. But wanting to get rid of PVP altogether (not saying you are, but it’s been mentioned)? That’s extreme.

Neophyte

I’ll tell you where I am and it feels pretty bad. I mainly PvP 100% of the time and I feel like I want to do some PvE because cyrodiil is so boring it’s the same fights everyday with the same shocking performance.

SshadowSscale

bmnoble wrote: »

PVE is a larger source of money, don't think its any more complicated than that.

If they were to release a new PVP DLC and the performance were as bad as it is with the games existing PVP content, you can just imagine the headache that would give their customer support team with people likely to ask for refunds.

That and PVP only works when you have enough players if they are not careful how they spread their PVP player base they might not have enough players in each content type resulting in complaints about a lack of PVP in their PVP zones.

And how much of thay pve content does pvp players have to pay for to get bis gear... Saying pvp playets spent no money on this game is just being ignorant.... Also note all the apex and radiant apex mount in cyrodil.... The costumes and polymorphs etc.... But hey pvp players spend no money on the game right..... And as I stated earlier in the thread a pvp update does not mean a new zone and yes zos can monitize it via a battlepass or something like that...

esotoon

SshadowSscale wrote: »

And how much of thay pve content does pvp players have to pay for to get bis gear... Saying pvp playets spent no money on this game is just being ignorant.... Also note all the apex and radiant apex mount in cyrodil....

This! So much this.

This notion that PVPers don't make any money for ZOS has to end.

Go into any PVP Server and actually look at the players there. I have been in social, trade and PVP Guilds for the past 6 years, and of all of them, it is the PVPers who are the most rabid about getting the apex mounts, and it is the PVPers who care about how they look the most. I'm not going to say they spend more than PVEers per player because no one has that kind of data, but they sure as heck spend a lot of money on the game.

JayKwellen

esotoon wrote: »

SshadowSscale wrote: »

And how much of thay pve content does pvp players have to pay for to get bis gear... Saying pvp playets spent no money on this game is just being ignorant.... Also note all the apex and radiant apex mount in cyrodil....

This! So much this.

This notion that PVPers don't make any money for ZOS has to end.

Go into any PVP Server and actually look at the players there. I have been in social, trade and PVP Guilds for the past 6 years, and of all of them, it is the PVPers who are the most rabid about getting the apex mounts, and it is the PVPers who care about how they look the most. I'm not going to say they spend more than PVEers per player because no one has that kind of data, but they sure as heck spend a lot of money on the game.

Seriously. The peacocking that goes on in PvP can get pretty intense, and this goes for literally every game ever. Not to mention all of the various DLC gear that makes up so many PvP build which kinda requires, you know, purchasing the DLC.

Now just imagine if ZOS actually invested a bit of money towards improving PvP. Updating and adding things to Cyrodiil, adding new incentives and ranking systems to BG's and Cyrodiil, making the map more dynamic or allowing for player modifications (what if you could craft your own unique siege in Cyrodiil? If you could construct actual siege lines and fortifications? Imagine if players could actually make the map feel alive), adding new BG's or even entirely new instanced PvP modes (just imagine something like a 24v24v24 multi-layered objective based BG mode, like a middle ground between Cyrodiil and traditional BG's)...there's so many things that ZOS could do to literally rake in money from a population that is absolutely starved for new content and would absolutely thrilled to throw money at them after of years of neglect and disappointment.

I mean...seriously. The PvP in this game could be so much more, and absolutely could be a much bigger money-making endeavor. The only reason it isn't is because they chose to let it wither on the vine instead of tending it as they should have.

Kadoin

Snowgoons wrote: »

PVP players have gotten:

1. BGs they didn't ask for as a bandaid for a failing cyrodiil.

2. A hammer/new siege no one asked for.

3. A declining experience as a whole. (Can't siege resource towers, things used to upgrade with the keeps in cool ways, most frustrating: the skills don't go off due to a new lag that wasn't here previously, people always spammed AoE's and never had these issues until recently)

What's going on?

You forgot to add in: new lag and balance changes no one asked for that winds up making the game even more unbalanced. Oh and the extra feature of any PvP-based input being completely ignored, even if you report bugs.

But by golly, you find a bug that lets you instakill a boss and that thing is fixed in a week or two.