The difference between healer and a poor man's DPS is getting harder to find

Athyrium93

If you really want to just heal just PUG some non DLC vet dungeons, 90% of those runs need a real healer because there's a ton of new players just getting into vet right now, they are the same ones complaining about fake healers, and by fake I mean good healers running buffs and debuffs instead of 10 slots of pure healing. The runs are long and grindy and kinda painful to watch with their 30k group dps (of which at 20k is just your incidental damage) but those groups will love you for dumping out a stupid amount of HPS and you can teach mechanics and give build tips to them and they will typically listen since your the first "real" healer they have gotten in a while.

All that said I completely agree with the OP, as much as I enjoy buffing and debuffing, I enjoy needing to slot more than incidental healing attached to a bar full of dps skills with dps gear. I'd much rather the dps be the incidental part on a bar full of heals, with mechanics that challenged my ability to keep the dps up instead of my ability to dps while keeping 100% uptime on buffs

kargen27

newtinmpls wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

The problem with healing is when you get to that elite level as a healer you do get kind of stuck in a rut. DPS can always work on more damage. With healing any increase is over healing and not beneficial to the group.

This is where I go not just for healing, but for say... Spell Power Cure (so excess heals turns into excess damage on the part of the DPS) or shielding, so that instead of trying to keep folks alive that do for minimum (and not very sustainable) health, I can make their effective health a lot higher.

Yeah Spell Power Cure is one of six sets my healer carries at all times. Been a while since I've used it though I think. When I mention elite level healer what I mean is a healer that makes it so other members do not have to worry about health, keeps buffs and debuffs up near 100% of the fight, helps keep resources up and still has enough magicka to go into overdrive healing should an oh [snip] moment arrive.

I sometimes miss a buff in my rotation but I am getting better at keeping them up all the time. Even when doing content where I know all that isn't needed I try to keep my rotation going as if it is needed. We don't have a target dummy to practice healing rotations on so that is the best way to get the good rotation down.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]

svendf

kargen27 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'll keep it simple, playing healer these days feels a lot like playing a low budget DPS. Between managing five dots for zen, or using a nightblade to incap then heavy attacking with a nirnhoned inferno for RO, healers feel a lot like playing a mag DPS that justdoes really low damage. Let be be clear I'm not saying that I want to do nothing but spam springs and orbs during trials, but the fact that playing a healer and playing a DPS feels so similar is beginning to be a turn-off.

This game is centered around DD's and it is frustrating.

DD's are in a race with each other to crank out the highest possible dps and just want to burn.

Healers are seen as a liability because that is a spot that can be filled by more DD's

Tanks are used to throw on damage sets that the DD's don't want to wear, and tanks keeping themselves or their group alive is seen as "selfish"

It's absolutely ridiculous and kinda disrespectful to those of us that enjoy playing support roles.

A friend preferred doing four man vet content with 3 DPS one tank. One night they couldn't find a third DPS so I offered to join on my healer. After we were done my friend admitted the run went a lot smoother and quicker with a healer. They could go full DPS with no worry about self heals and all that fun stuff. After that I got invited to a lot more groups.

Sometimes they need a wake up call. I believe some topics about healerr or tanks are not needed here and there are bad for the game and the roles we have in ESO. They are needed so dds can pump out some dps

YandereGirlfriend

So to me there seems to be two problems:

1. One of set design where inconvenient damage sets get punted to the healers and tanks.

2. Another of damage output to players in content being too low and/or that player self-healing is too high.

Really, I think that the second problem also drives the issues with set design and is the fundamental problem. If dungeons and trials had greater and more sustained damage then DPS players wouldn't be able to simply self-heal themselves and would thus require a healer in order to clear content at all.

Stronger damage would also mean that healers wouldn't have the luxury of using a damage set over a healing set and that sets such as Z'en, Martial Knowledge, RO, etc. would actually have to be worn by the DPS.

Similarly, you could amp up some damage phases so much that not even a dedicated healer would be sufficient and in so doing necessitate the use of some of the group-protection tank sets and shift tanks out of DPS support sets like Alkosh or Morag Tong.

Or you could tie the quality/duration buffs from the DPS support sets to hard DPS thresholds that healers or tanks would never be able to meet and ensure that only true damage characters would get those group-utility out of them.

To conclude, many roads may lead to Rome when it comes to solving this problem but the most straightforward one is simply to globally increase the damage dealt to groups.

Soulshine

kargen27 wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

The problem with healing is when you get to that elite level as a healer you do get kind of stuck in a rut. DPS can always work on more damage. With healing any increase is over healing and not beneficial to the group.

This is where I go not just for healing, but for say... Spell Power Cure (so excess heals turns into excess damage on the part of the DPS) or shielding, so that instead of trying to keep folks alive that do for minimum (and not very sustainable) health, I can make their effective health a lot higher.

Yeah Spell Power Cure is one of six sets my healer carries at all times. Been a while since I've used it though I think. When I mention elite level healer what I mean is a healer that makes it so other members do not have to worry about health, keeps buffs and debuffs up near 100% of the fight, helps keep resources up and still has enough magicka to go into overdrive healing should an oh $#!+ moment arrive.

I sometimes miss a buff in my rotation but I am getting better at keeping them up all the time. Even when doing content where I know all that isn't needed I try to keep my rotation going as if it is needed. We don't have a target dummy to practice healing rotations on so that is the best way to get the good rotation down.

Since Greymoor release, Vampire Feeding Grounds has become my "target dummy" for healing rotation practice.

The groups just seem to keep rolling by so sometimes I do several each day, even when there is no daily for it; some are over in no time if there are high CP players, but I also see a lot of new players and mid level vets so it's a good mix of issues with the different mini boss waves; I find it a fun way to warm up for other content of significance I want to do later, and test anything different in my build.

Soulshine

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

So to me there seems to be two problems:

1. One of set design where inconvenient damage sets get punted to the healers and tanks.

2. Another of damage output to players in content being too low and/or that player self-healing is too high.

Really, I think that the second problem also drives the issues with set design and is the fundamental problem. If dungeons and trials had greater and more sustained damage then DPS players wouldn't be able to simply self-heal themselves and would thus require a healer in order to clear content at all.

Stronger damage would also mean that healers wouldn't have the luxury of using a damage set over a healing set and that sets such as Z'en, Martial Knowledge, RO, etc. would actually have to be worn by the DPS.

Similarly, you could amp up some damage phases so much that not even a dedicated healer would be sufficient and in so doing necessitate the use of some of the group-protection tank sets and shift tanks out of DPS support sets like Alkosh or Morag Tong.

Or you could tie the quality/duration buffs from the DPS support sets to hard DPS thresholds that healers or tanks would never be able to meet and ensure that only true damage characters would get those group-utility out of them.

To conclude, many roads may lead to Rome when it comes to solving this problem but the most straightforward one is simply to globally increase the damage dealt to groups.

The issue is the culture in the game now entirely works against the notion of more damage to groups.

The game was launched on the premise of offering challenging content in small scale through the dungeon system, and not just in trials which came much later.

That went out the window almost before we even finished beta, due to the huge amount of difficulty decrying.

About the time we hit V12 and Craglorn, gripe fests were so rampant on group content needing to be easier I think ZOS gave up on addressing it in any meaningful way.

Its continued ever since, to the point where healers are now looked at with disdain and labeled "a liability" since players running in GOD mode seems more interesting...

Ironically, doesn't stop these same complainers from also griping about "fake healers" in dungeons.... **facepalm**

People now actually have the expectation and get angry if they can't just blast through a vet DLC inside of 10 minutes and bypass every mechanic there is with uber DPS in tow.

This expectation has become the fast food of ESO - just like real fast food, it's junk for the health of the game.

volkeswagon

Doesn't that have more to do with your playstyle. Not sure what you would like to happen

newtinmpls

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So.... I wholeheartedly agree!
Playing a healer is really feeling like you cant substantially contribute to group performance..

I disagree.

Recently I ran with a friend and two strangers ("not exactly a PUG") vaults of madness. I was running an Altmer Warden Healer and we hit "The Cursed One" that nasty mini-boss that always tries to kill one of the players. Even in non-vet (which we were doing) he can be a pain, and he targeted one of the DPS's and really went after him.

I'm very happy to say that between heals, ice shields and a combo of Healing Forest and Lamia's, I kept him alive. I got a nice compliment, and it was good to hear.

No, not everybody thinks to compliment the healer when the heals are "on", but some do.

zvavi

newtinmpls wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So.... I wholeheartedly agree!
Playing a healer is really feeling like you cant substantially contribute to group performance..

I disagree.

Recently I ran with a friend and two strangers ("not exactly a PUG") vaults of madness. I was running an Altmer Warden Healer and we hit "The Cursed One" that nasty mini-boss that always tries to kill one of the players. Even in non-vet (which we were doing) he can be a pain, and he targeted one of the DPS's and really went after him.

I'm very happy to say that between heals, ice shields and a combo of Healing Forest and Lamia's, I kept him alive. I got a nice compliment, and it was good to hear.

No, not everybody thinks to compliment the healer when the heals are "on", but some do.

I mean, I don't want to sound rude, but you keeping him alive probably points at low group damage, or timely stop to damage on boss. The damage is literally a one shot if your dds are strong but not careful. Then again you can just nuke it before he does it so :shrug:

Aznarb

newtinmpls wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So.... I wholeheartedly agree!
Playing a healer is really feeling like you cant substantially contribute to group performance..

I disagree.

Recently I ran with a friend and two strangers ("not exactly a PUG") vaults of madness. I was running an Altmer Warden Healer and we hit "The Cursed One" that nasty mini-boss that always tries to kill one of the players. Even in non-vet (which we were doing) he can be a pain, and he targeted one of the DPS's and really went after him.

I'm very happy to say that between heals, ice shields and a combo of Healing Forest and Lamia's, I kept him alive. I got a nice compliment, and it was good to hear.

No, not everybody thinks to compliment the healer when the heals are "on", but some do.

Or you can just use 1 hot and spam burst heal.
Or you'r DD can learn mec' and stop hitting.
That just another "player are not good" case. I can solo this DG in vet...

That literally what I said in a previous post ; healer are good for bad player, once you and your groupe become very good, you're not needed anymore outside of raid.

svendf

Hey Zos can´t we get seperate forums for PC and console ? It seems the PC player´s run a diffent game and some PC player´s put some strange ideas into the head of consol player´s.

haha the soloist´s alway´s pop up here and there and it is important we all know they can solo like no one else.

Stop this nonsens about roles not needed. Healing is fun and interessting - a good breather from dd.

I say support tanks and healer´s in all content.

Eifleber

I don' t really agree.

It really depends on what dungeon and what group.

That said my PUG healers always have 1 healing bar and 1 dd bar and hardly invest in + healing gear or + heal CP.
Usually works fine. In some tough dungeons healing really is required, in others I mainly do dd. I always feel useful.

mairwen85

svendf wrote: »

Hey Zos can´t we get seperate forums for PC and console ? It seems the PC player´s run a diffent game and some PC player´s put some strange ideas into the head of consol player´s.

haha the soloist´s alway´s pop up here and there and it is important we all know they can solo like no one else.

Stop this nonsens about roles not needed. Healing is fun and interessting - a good breather from dd.

I say support tanks and healer´s in all content.

It's group specific, yes. Some groups will always need a healer, others will have a preference for but be able to go without, others don't want a healer because it really will hold them back. All voices need to be heard, because there really is a point you can get to in a lot of content where certain roles become redundant. Pretty much all base game dungeons can be soloed (not by everyone, but a good few), All DLC can be done without a healer (not by all, but by a good many)--where that isn't the case, a healer makes clears more comfortable, but is never really an absolute necessity. As others have suggested, dungeons that are designed fully around the triad (healer, dps, tank) don't really exist, and as a player who plays all roles, I can't see how in their current design methodology and paradigm they can achieve that without massive nerfs to players; taking power away is never a good idea, it can be done on a case by case basis, but umbrella nerfing the entire player base puts people at the bottom of the scale in a worse position than those at the top. When your middle-tier players struggle with content they cleared comfortably previously, that's not a good sign for those still climbing the ladder to get to that point. Building in heal checks and inventing new mechanics like wounding or health/resource drain over the course of a fight is tedious and elements of that already exist in certain dungeons, but still players find a way to get around that with just more damage; proposals for one-shots to be scaled on % of health instead of fixed value is another suggestion that means a healer can help with mistakes, but more damage will still be a better solution to prevent it in the first first place. And that's where we are, damage is king in ESO, and the more you have, the less requirement for other roles exists. In fact, the main reason a tank is relevant over a healer (again, not for everyone) is they hold stuff still so it can be beaten up by concentrated fire.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'll keep it simple, playing healer these days feels a lot like playing a low budget DPS. Between managing five dots for zen, or using a nightblade to incap then heavy attacking with a nirnhoned inferno for RO, healers feel a lot like playing a mag DPS that justdoes really low damage. Let be be clear I'm not saying that I want to do nothing but spam springs and orbs during trials, but the fact that playing a healer and playing a DPS feels so similar is beginning to be a turn-off.

This game is centered around DD's and it is frustrating.

DD's are in a race with each other to crank out the highest possible dps and just want to burn.

Healers are seen as a liability because that is a spot that can be filled by more DD's

Tanks are used to throw on damage sets that the DD's don't want to wear, and tanks keeping themselves or their group alive is seen as "selfish"

It's absolutely ridiculous and kinda disrespectful to those of us that enjoy playing support roles.

This can't be said enough. What upsets me most is the blatant lack of respect for support roles, and ESO's neglect to make the roles feel rewarding, or be viable outside of being DDs servants, which is the apparent culture. Its enough reason to not want to be one, further adding to the scarcity of us. Plus, unrealistic expectations from support roles. We are still our own player... no-one should dictate how we do our role, or what we wear. As I keep saying, healers/tanks SUPPORT you, we do not SERVE you. And DDs have the audacity to minimize healers/tanks down to wanting an easy pass in content... easy for them to say when we have to bust our raw hides keeping DDs alive. Its a thankless, and often punishing, job.

I blame multiple aspects for this, but mainly: unimaginative mechanics and resource scaling. Not much for a healer to do when so many things can 1-shot you. 1-shots give tanks something to worry about, but healers... just gives players a reason to blame you. I prefer fights like in Crypt of Hearts 2. The bone colossus, towards the end, there is sooooo much AOE. Its honestly not that hard to manage, but when DDs are constantly running around like chickens with their head cut off, never staying in AOE heals, and always running behind you (healer)......... stress. My point is, that's a lot of constant small damage over a longish/still shortish span of time. It gives healers something to sweat over! Or how about Vaults of madness when that phantom applies that.... idk, soul bond?... whatever dmg he takes, one party member takes. Most people don't know that mechanic, or are just rude and don't care... point is, maybe more monsters that will soul-bond with one or more party members, so that DDs have to worry about mechanics now too, instead of just going through a rotation without any care in the world or consideration for their group... most mechanics just stress the healers/tanks out, without any real repercussions to DDs.

Resource/dmg scaling... naturally, you would want to bar a combination of heals, buffs, debuffs, and offensive skills right? So you need a healthy mix of magicka and stamina! And if you want to survive anything other than a gentle tap on the forehead, you might want some HP too. But because of resource scaling, and the complete squat ESO takes on hybrids, you are left feeling useless one way or another.... deal decent dmg, but struggle when heals get demanding... heal like a boss, but cant take care of yourself... And lets be real: I hardly ever see DDs guarding their healer, yet DDs fully expect support roles to serve their every need (heals, sustain, etc.).... the duality/entitlement is painful... Whats the point of offering a choice in all three attributes when you are forced to fully invest in just one to be viable in any role?

mairwen85

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

most mechanics just stress the healers/tanks out, without any real repercussions to DDs.

The pressure is on dps to do actual damage; the less damage they do, the more pressure on the tank (and them to do more), the more damage they do, the less pressure and stress on everyone.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Whats the point of offering a choice in all three attributes when you are forced to fully invest in just one to be viable in any role?

You need health to live, need stamina for damage/defence, need mag for heals/damage/shields

Healer keeps them all topped up, because even though their values vary, they are all necessary. The healer is the group's battery, but not every group needs a battery, that's the way to look at this rather than bemoaning that some players have excelled beyond the point of needing one.

kathandira

I built my healer into a resource battery. I find it fun to manage and maintain all the different methods of buffing people.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil

mairwen85 wrote: »

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

most mechanics just stress the healers/tanks out, without any real repercussions to DDs.

The pressure is on dps to do actual damage; the less damage they do, the more pressure on the tank (and them to do more), the more damage they do, the less pressure and stress on everyone.

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

Whats the point of offering a choice in all three attributes when you are forced to fully invest in just one to be viable in any role?

You need health to live, need stamina for damage/defence, need mag for heals/damage/shields

Healer keeps them all topped up, because even though their values vary, they are all necessary. The healer is the group's battery, but not every group needs a battery, that's the way to look at this rather than bemoaning that some players have excelled beyond the point of needing one.

Now that we have clarified the obvious.... do you have any insight on my actual point that you quoted? What mechanics do DDs have to worry about? As my post suggests, mechanics add pressure to tanks and healers, and very few actually demand anything from DDs, as they blissfully continue their rotation without a care in the world. Hooray for your one job. Meanwhile, healers and tanks are expected to A, B, C.....

And lets touch base on what pressure a DPS should feel. How about rezzing your DD buddy, since the tank and healer are too busy keeping you alive? How about getting out of red, instead of finishing your META rotation? Not much pressure comes from bad DPS... its patience that's required.

As far as resources go... what exactly are you getting at? As I stated above, resources scaling your damage has greatly limited the efficacy of tanks and healers outside of being soft hitting babysitters. As the OP suggests, there is not much content that feels rewarding to healers, making the role feel like a less powerful DD, with an added responsibility, which only arises ever so often. I moan about the inability to build a true hybrid, like long time TES players have doing since our discovery of the title. TES birthed hybrids. ESO has now abandoned them.

So tell me... who is bemoaning about good, or as you are suggesting, brilliant DPS??? I am moaning about the lack of content that makes support roles feel necessary, not even eluding to it being DD fault, but rather, the lack of imaginative mechanics that would add more pressure on healers. You're not exactly helping anyone here by driving the point home: this game revolves around DDs and us support roles are getting bored. If you would like to re-read, I mentioned 2 very specific mechanics whose reincarnation would be a great addition to new, or existing, content.

BXR_Lonestar

The issue is that healing scales with offensive stats, so that DPS with high max magika/spell power or high weapon damage/stamina have stronger heals than a dedicated healer will have because dedicated healers aren't required to invest as much in their offensive stats (sustain is far more important).

IMO what they need to do is decouple healing from being based off of the offensive stats and base it off of something else. I think basing it off of mag regen would make logistical sense for the game but wouldn't make sense from game-universe standpoint.

An alternative to that would be to have stats tied to whatever group role you select, but then we would need to accept less fluidity in terms of being able to swap seemlessly between roles. The way this would work is that if you select the DPS role, your healing done is reduced by 100%; If you select the healing role, your abilities do 100% less damage but you heal for 100% more. Tanks would do 100% less damage but gain 100% more resiliency (health regen?). These are just hypothetical numbers to make a point and could be filled in with whatever they need for balance.

An alternative to that could be to simply have separate champion point trees just for healing related stats and a separate tree just for dps related stats and there is no blend between the 2. Make both trees have so many numerous perks that are appealing for their respective class that you would use all your points in the tree that benefits your role (example - a sustain buff that grants more magika regen while a resto staff is your active weapon, whereas dps would simply gain raw damage with a desto staff equipped). This may help separate DPS off-healers performance from those of a dedicated healer.

mairwen85

Scion_of_Yggdrasil wrote: »

So tell me... who is bemoaning about good, or as you are suggesting, brilliant DPS??? I am moaning about the lack of content that makes support roles feel necessary, not even eluding to it being DD fault, but rather, the lack of imaginative mechanics that would add more pressure on healers. You're not exactly helping anyone here by driving the point home: this game revolves around DDs and us support roles are getting bored. If you would like to re-read, I mentioned 2 very specific mechanics whose reincarnation would be a great addition to new, or existing, content.

See my previous comments in relation to 'mechanics' (and my views on them as a healer). I'm not against anything you're saying, just putting out that I see it somewhat differently. Mainly, that regardless of incoming damage, high outgoing damage will always be the best means to clear--the only mechanics that get around that are temporary boss invincibility until x happens. That latter type tend to be mech that a healer or dps will be required to fulfil; granted that's more a vet dlc thing, but logically it makes sense that it is when we view dungeon content as a tiered progression ladder. Also, when I dps, it's rarely the healer's fault if I die, unless I'm dying due to lack of resources ()

Bottom line, support roles are necessary, but not for every group--if you're running in groups you feel make you redundant, then either go for a different role, or play with a different group of people. The issue of redundancy is massively inflated in threads like this because there is by no means a case that every player has progressed passed that point.

UGotBenched91

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'll keep it simple, playing healer these days feels a lot like playing a low budget DPS. Between managing five dots for zen, or using a nightblade to incap then heavy attacking with a nirnhoned inferno for RO, healers feel a lot like playing a mag DPS that justdoes really low damage. Let be be clear I'm not saying that I want to do nothing but spam springs and orbs during trials, but the fact that playing a healer and playing a DPS feels so similar is beginning to be a turn-off.

Yep, sadly I realized this too and my healer is now a bank/ crafter now.

Arunei

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

When you get to that point, what's wrong with converting to a pure or almost pure DPS build?

Maybe the fact that a person doesn't want to play a DPS to begin with, and that's why they chose a different role? Seems like the obvious answer, they aren't playing it because that's not what they want to do.

I honestly think ZOS needs to start introducing certain mechanics that take emphasis off DPS. Something I had the idea for the other day was a boss that is actually a sort of puzzle, one the DDs have to figure out because there's nothing for them to attack. There could be enemies that spawn that are invulnerable to any damage and will attack the DDs with solid damage (no OHKOs though because those are cheap imo) if the tank doesn't keep them aggro'd. That gives the DD something to do that doesn't involve burning whatever as fast as they can do their rotations, the tank has to keep the unkillable mobs engaged so they don't murder the DDs, and the healer has to work to keep the tank alive and the DDs if tank should lose aggro for any reason.

This is just one idea for mechanics they could employ that aren't cheap OHKOs and also engage all the roles. 3 DDs and a tank trying to get through the boss above would fail because self-heals wouldn't be enough to keep the steady damage from eventually killing the people, since eventually the DDs would run out of resources for healing and doing damage (as they tend to share the same resource). Now obviously I don't expect them to go through the dungeons we have now to add mechanics like this to them, but dungeons in the future could make use of unique and interesting things that make healers and tanks more necessary, and reduce the rabid focus on astronomical DPS since there would be dungeons where god-tier DPS wouldn't mean squat.

I do think an easy (relatively speaking, coding-wise it might not be so simple) solution to add more checks to existing bosses, so that they do their mechanics more often depending on what % of their HP they're at. But don't stop there, make the boss immune to damage while the mechanic plays out, so people actually get engaged in it. Obviously for mechanics that call for the boss to be burned to end them would be exempt from this, but ones that don't? Make the group actually have to experience the mechanic. That would also help cut down on the whole "high DPS or bust" thing, since sure, you can get through the non-mechanic parts of the battle faster with higher DPS, but during those periods where your DPS means nothing, healers and tanks would be more relevant because they'd be needed to keep the DDs alive during those non-burn phases.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

I'd like to chime in and say I agree with this, as someone who enjoys (or rather, enjoyed) the healing role the most, formerly tanking. But both roles are entirely dedicated to acting as nothing more than a buff monkey for dps specifically, as everything in the game seems to revolve around the biggest burn. To me at least, that points to a massive flaw in combat design, chief of which may be that healing strength is amplified by weapon or spell damage. That makes no sense from any perspective, and hurts both pvp and pve in the end by contributing to the frenzied dps race that this game consists of. Not to mention the attitudes toward support are deplorable at best in the end game community.

kargen27

zvavi wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So.... I wholeheartedly agree!
Playing a healer is really feeling like you cant substantially contribute to group performance..

I disagree.

Recently I ran with a friend and two strangers ("not exactly a PUG") vaults of madness. I was running an Altmer Warden Healer and we hit "The Cursed One" that nasty mini-boss that always tries to kill one of the players. Even in non-vet (which we were doing) he can be a pain, and he targeted one of the DPS's and really went after him.

I'm very happy to say that between heals, ice shields and a combo of Healing Forest and Lamia's, I kept him alive. I got a nice compliment, and it was good to hear.

No, not everybody thinks to compliment the healer when the heals are "on", but some do.

I mean, I don't want to sound rude, but you keeping him alive probably points at low group damage, or timely stop to damage on boss. The damage is literally a one shot if your dds are strong but not careful. Then again you can just nuke it before he does it so :shrug:

Not all players can burn that boss. Not all players know the mechanics. Sounds like the DPS in question was on the verge of dying and appreciated the healer keeping him alive. Doesn't matter that other groups would have been able to just stroll on by. What matters to them is even when they had a problem the healer kept them going.

That is pretty much the point of this thread. At a certain level the healer becomes less and less needed and that is a shame. you've provided a perfect example of what is being said. DPS can ignore the mechanics of that boss making the healer feel unnecessary.

zvavi

kargen27 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So.... I wholeheartedly agree!
Playing a healer is really feeling like you cant substantially contribute to group performance..

I disagree.

Recently I ran with a friend and two strangers ("not exactly a PUG") vaults of madness. I was running an Altmer Warden Healer and we hit "The Cursed One" that nasty mini-boss that always tries to kill one of the players. Even in non-vet (which we were doing) he can be a pain, and he targeted one of the DPS's and really went after him.

I'm very happy to say that between heals, ice shields and a combo of Healing Forest and Lamia's, I kept him alive. I got a nice compliment, and it was good to hear.

No, not everybody thinks to compliment the healer when the heals are "on", but some do.

I mean, I don't want to sound rude, but you keeping him alive probably points at low group damage, or timely stop to damage on boss. The damage is literally a one shot if your dds are strong but not careful. Then again you can just nuke it before he does it so :shrug:

Not all players can burn that boss. Not all players know the mechanics. Sounds like the DPS in question was on the verge of dying and appreciated the healer keeping him alive. Doesn't matter that other groups would have been able to just stroll on by. What matters to them is even when they had a problem the healer kept them going.

That is pretty much the point of this thread. At a certain level the healer becomes less and less needed and that is a shame. you've provided a perfect example of what is being said. DPS can ignore the mechanics of that boss making the healer feel unnecessary.

I agree. I do feel useless on my healer when the group is good. High dps makes dungeons so much easier, even running vDLC with 4 dds works relatively well because bosses are stuck on doing their % animations... HM included in some (I will agree that it is much less comfortable though).

Off-healers though are very fun to play and have very nice damage. Only problem is that you constantly need to respec the two builds between dd & off heal.

newtinmpls

kathandira wrote: »

I built my healer into a resource battery. I find it fun to manage and maintain all the different methods of buffing people.

Interesting...I've been playing around much more with resources and shields...what is working and fun for you?

mairwen85

zvavi wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

zvavi wrote: »

newtinmpls wrote: »

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

So.... I wholeheartedly agree!
Playing a healer is really feeling like you cant substantially contribute to group performance..

I disagree.

Recently I ran with a friend and two strangers ("not exactly a PUG") vaults of madness. I was running an Altmer Warden Healer and we hit "The Cursed One" that nasty mini-boss that always tries to kill one of the players. Even in non-vet (which we were doing) he can be a pain, and he targeted one of the DPS's and really went after him.

I'm very happy to say that between heals, ice shields and a combo of Healing Forest and Lamia's, I kept him alive. I got a nice compliment, and it was good to hear.

No, not everybody thinks to compliment the healer when the heals are "on", but some do.

I mean, I don't want to sound rude, but you keeping him alive probably points at low group damage, or timely stop to damage on boss. The damage is literally a one shot if your dds are strong but not careful. Then again you can just nuke it before he does it so :shrug:

Not all players can burn that boss. Not all players know the mechanics. Sounds like the DPS in question was on the verge of dying and appreciated the healer keeping him alive. Doesn't matter that other groups would have been able to just stroll on by. What matters to them is even when they had a problem the healer kept them going.

That is pretty much the point of this thread. At a certain level the healer becomes less and less needed and that is a shame. you've provided a perfect example of what is being said. DPS can ignore the mechanics of that boss making the healer feel unnecessary.

I agree. I do feel useless on my healer when the group is good. High dps makes dungeons so much easier, even running vDLC with 4 dds works relatively well because bosses are stuck on doing their % animations... HM included in some (I will agree that it is much less comfortable though).

Off-healers though are very fun to play and have very nice damage. Only problem is that you constantly need to respec the two builds between dd & off heal.

And that, I think, is the crux here. At a certain point, people progress passed the requirement for a healer. That's not a bad thing at all and there are still many players that require one (as I've said in previous posts)--but even in a 3/4dd group, extra healing can be more comfortable. Healer is already the most dynamic role in the game, you put into the group whatever it needs, be that raw healing, sustain aid, buffs/debuffs, or some dps where possible. You put out what is best for the group you are in. If the group doesn't require full on healer, slap the gear on, put the skills on, and do more dps with a bit of passive healing/aid/buff... It's healing on a sliding scale hps:dps kind of thing. As a healer you need to work out the balance for the group you're in. It would help players achieve that betteris we had true multi speccing.

cheemers

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'll keep it simple, playing healer these days feels a lot like playing a low budget DPS. Between managing five dots for zen, or using a nightblade to incap then heavy attacking with a nirnhoned inferno for RO, healers feel a lot like playing a mag DPS that justdoes really low damage. Let be be clear I'm not saying that I want to do nothing but spam springs and orbs during trials, but the fact that playing a healer and playing a DPS feels so similar is beginning to be a turn-off.

This game is centered around DD's and it is frustrating.

DD's are in a race with each other to crank out the highest possible dps and just want to burn.

Healers are seen as a liability because that is a spot that can be filled by more DD's

Tanks are used to throw on damage sets that the DD's don't want to wear, and tanks keeping themselves or their group alive is seen as "selfish"

It's absolutely ridiculous and kinda disrespectful to those of us that enjoy playing support roles.

This is flawed reasoning. You can't "support" a boss to death, you can only damage it. Thereby the only way to complete content is through damage, and the only variable is how much damage you have. Tanks' and healers' jobs are to ensure that damage stays optimised by preventing deaths / providing resources and buffs. If a tank or healer can't provide that but rather has to sacrifice a set to keep themselves alive, they likely aren't providing the maximum group support they otherwise could and are therefore being a subpar support.

Note that this doesn't always mean having to run alkosh / yolna. For example, if a tank is wearing alkosh / yolna but can't survive a boss heavy attack and has to rely on dodge rolling the boss (and thereby pulling it out of DPS AoEs), then the tank would serve the group better and raise overall DPS by wearing a survival set so they can stand their ground.

Likewise, if a healer is running zen but then doesn't have the healing power to keep the team alive during a taxing boss phase, they are lowering group DPS by letting players die, and would be better off with hiti for example.

At the end of the day, there is such a thing as "over supporting", be that by over healing or being unnecessarily tanky. The only variable in completion time is damage efficiency, and the support roles are there to optimise that. I'm not belittling the important support roles, just explaining that supports in a vacuum cannot do anything.

mairwen85

cheemers wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'll keep it simple, playing healer these days feels a lot like playing a low budget DPS. Between managing five dots for zen, or using a nightblade to incap then heavy attacking with a nirnhoned inferno for RO, healers feel a lot like playing a mag DPS that justdoes really low damage. Let be be clear I'm not saying that I want to do nothing but spam springs and orbs during trials, but the fact that playing a healer and playing a DPS feels so similar is beginning to be a turn-off.

This game is centered around DD's and it is frustrating.

DD's are in a race with each other to crank out the highest possible dps and just want to burn.

Healers are seen as a liability because that is a spot that can be filled by more DD's

Tanks are used to throw on damage sets that the DD's don't want to wear, and tanks keeping themselves or their group alive is seen as "selfish"

It's absolutely ridiculous and kinda disrespectful to those of us that enjoy playing support roles.

This is flawed reasoning. You can't "support" a boss to death, you can only damage it. Thereby the only way to complete content is through damage, and the only variable is how much damage you have. Tanks' and healers' jobs are to ensure that damage stays optimised by preventing deaths / providing resources and buffs. If a tank or healer can't provide that but rather has to sacrifice a set to keep themselves alive, they likely aren't providing the maximum group support they otherwise could and are therefore being a subpar support.

Note that this doesn't always mean having to run alkosh / yolna. For example, if a tank is wearing alkosh / yolna but can't survive a boss heavy attack and has to rely on dodge rolling the boss (and thereby pulling it out of DPS AoEs), then the tank would serve the group better and raise overall DPS by wearing a survival set so they can stand their ground.

Likewise, if a healer is running zen but then doesn't have the healing power to keep the team alive during a taxing boss phase, they are lowering group DPS by letting players die, and would be better off with hiti for example.

At the end of the day, there is such a thing as "over supporting", be that by over healing or being unnecessarily tanky. The only variable in completion time is damage efficiency, and the support roles are there to optimise that. I'm not belittling the important support roles, just explaining that supports in a vacuum cannot do anything.

I didn't read anything belittling in that comment at all, rather you highlighted the importance of support and the dynamic nature of the roles and how they can provide it best.

Nyladreas

kargen27 wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

I'll keep it simple, playing healer these days feels a lot like playing a low budget DPS. Between managing five dots for zen, or using a nightblade to incap then heavy attacking with a nirnhoned inferno for RO, healers feel a lot like playing a mag DPS that justdoes really low damage. Let be be clear I'm not saying that I want to do nothing but spam springs and orbs during trials, but the fact that playing a healer and playing a DPS feels so similar is beginning to be a turn-off.

This game is centered around DD's and it is frustrating.

DD's are in a race with each other to crank out the highest possible dps and just want to burn.

Healers are seen as a liability because that is a spot that can be filled by more DD's

Tanks are used to throw on damage sets that the DD's don't want to wear, and tanks keeping themselves or their group alive is seen as "selfish"

It's absolutely ridiculous and kinda disrespectful to those of us that enjoy playing support roles.

A friend preferred doing four man vet content with 3 DPS one tank. One night they couldn't find a third DPS so I offered to join on my healer. After we were done my friend admitted the run went a lot smoother and quicker with a healer. They could go full DPS with no worry about self heals and all that fun stuff. After that I got invited to a lot more groups.

Are you sure you're on forums for the right game? 😮