Suggestion: Healing skills should search for allies every 3rd cast and otherwise be self-heals

fred4

(Already posted this on PTS forum, but perhaps it really belongs here. ZOS, feel free to delete one or the other, I guess.)

I am referring to the upcoming performance tests, specifically to healing skills. A way to mitigate the impact for solo and small-scale playstyles might be if heals, such as Honor the Dead, Healing Ward, the Twilight Heal, Living Trellis and so on would only search for allies on the first cast. If spammed, then the next two casts would always be self-heals and, in case of the Twilight, perhaps self and pet heals. This may actually suit solo and small-scale players or anyone trying to self-heal, who sometimes finds it difficult to do so, because the heal keeps going to an ally. What do you think?

fred4

Good idea

Now that I think of it, you could give other skills this kind of treatment. Examples:

Sweeps / Jabs: Instead of always hitting all enemies in front, these skills might hit all of them for full damage on the first cast, but only a single target on the second and third cast. The first hit would deal higher AOE damage than it does now, possibly the same as single-target damage. Probably needs more thought, but something along these lines. It might transform into a targeted melee skill, possibly with a different animation, on the second and third cast, if that's what it takes.

Streak: First streak damages and stuns. The next two streaks, when cast in a row, don't do that, but it becomes a pure mobility skill. IMO this should suit sorcs fine. You don't streak twice in a row offensively. You only do it defensively, unless searching for NBs.

There will be some interesting consequences to all of this. Dedicated healers may become more valuable. Nightblade survival will be improved, due to the reduction of AOE skills and the inability to spam them for detection.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

So you basically want to eliminate the healer role. No thanks.

fred4

Good idea

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So you basically want to eliminate the healer role. No thanks.

Quite the opposite. I think Fengrush voiced this: Currently DDs can cross heal, because skills like Regeneration and Echoing Vigor stack with themselves, when you get them from different people. In a properly built group (maybe the type of small group he plays in) everyone can throw on just one such healing skill and healers aren't even needed. His idea was that these skills should not stack.

What I'm talking about isn't the same thing. However DDs often have just one burst heal that may go to another person, such as Healing Ward. If that has limited cross heal potential, the DD cannot switch to a healer role as effectively. Only a dedicated healer with 3 or more healing skills can constantly cast heals. Dedicated healers may become more valuable, because only they have the bar space to slot, for the sake of the argument, multiple burst heals, such as Breath of Life and Healing Ward. I am thinking of the scenario with individual skill cooldowns. If it's a global cooldown then, yeah, I think that's too draconian.

Sugaroverdose

Bad idea

Why not every 9¾?

I'm not against smallscale and not for stacking, but this idea, it's just makes skills unreliable

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

fred4 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So you basically want to eliminate the healer role. No thanks.

Quite the opposite. I think Fengrush voiced this: Currently DDs can cross heal, because skills like Regeneration and Echoing Vigor stack with themselves, when you get them from different people. In a properly built group (maybe the type of small group he plays in) everyone can throw on just one such healing skill and healers aren't even needed. His idea was that these skills should not stack.

What I'm talking about isn't the same thing. However DDs often have just one burst heal that may go to another person, such as Healing Ward. If that has limited cross heal potential, the DD cannot switch to a healer role as effectively. Only a dedicated healer with 3 or more healing skills can constantly cast heals. Dedicated healers may become more valuable, because only they have the bar space to slot, for the sake of the argument, multiple burst heals, such as Breath of Life and Healing Ward. I am thinking of the scenario with individual skill cooldowns. If it's a global cooldown then, yeah, I think that's too draconian.

You're looking at this wrong. Putting a limit on how often you can cast heals that actually affect other people doesn't make healers more useful, it just limits what they can do.

You'll just wind up with every DD and their mother running one heal that they cast once every few seconds as part of a rotation.

fred4

Good idea

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So you basically want to eliminate the healer role. No thanks.

Quite the opposite. I think Fengrush voiced this: Currently DDs can cross heal, because skills like Regeneration and Echoing Vigor stack with themselves, when you get them from different people. In a properly built group (maybe the type of small group he plays in) everyone can throw on just one such healing skill and healers aren't even needed. His idea was that these skills should not stack.

What I'm talking about isn't the same thing. However DDs often have just one burst heal that may go to another person, such as Healing Ward. If that has limited cross heal potential, the DD cannot switch to a healer role as effectively. Only a dedicated healer with 3 or more healing skills can constantly cast heals. Dedicated healers may become more valuable, because only they have the bar space to slot, for the sake of the argument, multiple burst heals, such as Breath of Life and Healing Ward. I am thinking of the scenario with individual skill cooldowns. If it's a global cooldown then, yeah, I think that's too draconian.

You're looking at this wrong. Putting a limit on how often you can cast heals that actually affect other people doesn't make healers more useful, it just limits what they can do.

Just to be clear, I'm not the one who proposed limits. ZOS did. I'm merely pointing out that you could have skills acting single target 2/3rds of the time and this may be more viable than disallowing another skill cast altogether for 3 seconds.

I wish I'd added another option so people could express their fundamental opposition to ZOS' plans, although I do believe that, as of right now at least, these really are just tests.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

fred4 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

fred4 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So you basically want to eliminate the healer role. No thanks.

Quite the opposite. I think Fengrush voiced this: Currently DDs can cross heal, because skills like Regeneration and Echoing Vigor stack with themselves, when you get them from different people. In a properly built group (maybe the type of small group he plays in) everyone can throw on just one such healing skill and healers aren't even needed. His idea was that these skills should not stack.

What I'm talking about isn't the same thing. However DDs often have just one burst heal that may go to another person, such as Healing Ward. If that has limited cross heal potential, the DD cannot switch to a healer role as effectively. Only a dedicated healer with 3 or more healing skills can constantly cast heals. Dedicated healers may become more valuable, because only they have the bar space to slot, for the sake of the argument, multiple burst heals, such as Breath of Life and Healing Ward. I am thinking of the scenario with individual skill cooldowns. If it's a global cooldown then, yeah, I think that's too draconian.

You're looking at this wrong. Putting a limit on how often you can cast heals that actually affect other people doesn't make healers more useful, it just limits what they can do.

Just to be clear, I'm not the one who proposed limits. ZOS did. I'm merely pointing out that you could have skills acting single target 2/3rds of the time and this may be more viable than disallowing another skill cast altogether for 3 seconds.

I wish I'd added another option so people could express their fundamental opposition to ZOS' plans, although I do believe that, as of right now at least, these really are just tests.

Even in that context, your proposal is hostile to healers. Under your proposed system, DDs that slot a heal have group healing that they can cast about as often as they would ever want to anyway, and then if they get in trouble they suddenly have a spammable heal that's guaranteed to target themselves instead of somebody else (which is a huge buff for DD, as evidenced by all of the pleas to add self-only morphs to things like Rushed Ceremony and Regeneration). On the other hand, dedicated healers wouldn't be any better off than under ZOS's test conditions. The end result is that healers get marginalized (because you're effectively buffing solo/off healing to the point where dedicated healing isn't worth the trouble any more).

fred4

Good idea

I take your point, although I would say - based on the situations I find myself in personally - the heal going to someone else when you really need it yourself isn't all that frequent. It's for that reason that it stands out in memory and is annoying when it happens. It's also only an issue with certain skills, such as Healing Ward. Living Trellis, for example, is already a skill you can control to some degree by aiming. I know this doesn't counter the main thrust of your argument. I only wanted to say that guaranteed self healing for solo players is IMO a nice to have and not much more.

You might say to ZOS, OK, you're barking up the wrong tree, players won't stand for any of this and leave the game. They'll probably see that as the empty threat it likely us. I'm just trying to cooperate and see whether there is a viable idea here. If you have one for healers, let us know.

Things that come to mind are no healing for anyone other than group members and removing all range checks. This would mean healing could take place for people on the other side of the map or that have gone off to PvE - although a zone check is probably easier to implement than a range check and should be done. You could also argue that a good group should stick on the crown, so it may not be an issue. I guess this is already coming next update, but I bet there is still some range check component that remains, if only to prevent visual anomalies, such as the Regeneration beam shooting across half the map.

A really crude, not thought out idea would be to exempt healers from the new rules by virtue of the fact they marked their role as a healer on the group screen. They would have no cooldowns on healing skills, but as a tradeoff all their damaging skills and damaging components of skills would do zero damage. This would prevent the DDs from marking themselves as healers.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

Here's my solution. ZOS should do some combination of the following.

1) Rework all of the 1-2 target burst heals to require aiming at a target, like Nature's Grasp (which is basically the only non-AoE heal in the game).
2) Instead of adding cooldowns, double the cost of all AoE skills, and increase their damage and healing by some percentage to compensate (not so much that they do more damage and healing than single target abilities though, meaning that this will be a nerf overall).
3) Cut the effect of all sustain related CPs in half.
4) Cut the effect of all set bonuses that affect group sustain in half.
5) Cut the resources restored by Orbs and Shards in half.

blendertoes

Bad idea

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Here's my solution. ZOS should do some combination of the following.

1) Rework all of the 1-2 target burst heals to require aiming at a target, like Nature's Grasp (which is basically the only non-AoE heal in the game).
2) Instead of adding cooldowns, double the cost of all AoE skills, and increase their damage and healing by some percentage to compensate (not so much that they do more damage and healing than single target abilities though, meaning that this will be a nerf overall).
3) Cut the effect of all sustain related CPs in half.
4) Cut the effect of all set bonuses that affect group sustain in half.
5) Cut the resources restored by Orbs and Shards in half.

This is an absolutely awful idea that will destroy sustain and return the game to the heavy attack meta that was not well received the last time it happened.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

blendertoes wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Here's my solution. ZOS should do some combination of the following.

1) Rework all of the 1-2 target burst heals to require aiming at a target, like Nature's Grasp (which is basically the only non-AoE heal in the game).
2) Instead of adding cooldowns, double the cost of all AoE skills, and increase their damage and healing by some percentage to compensate (not so much that they do more damage and healing than single target abilities though, meaning that this will be a nerf overall).
3) Cut the effect of all sustain related CPs in half.
4) Cut the effect of all set bonuses that affect group sustain in half.
5) Cut the resources restored by Orbs and Shards in half.

This is an absolutely awful idea that will destroy sustain and return the game to the heavy attack meta that was not well received the last time it happened.

People should be heavy attacking more. If you read ZOS's post, it's very clear that improvements in group sustain over time are what they think is allowing people to chain-cast AoE. The obvious solution, therefore, is to nerf sustain. You should also notice that my suggestions only really affect AoE, group, and high-end sustain. I specifically avoided things that would affect self-sustain for lower CP players using single-target abilities.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

Also, nothing in my proposal would prevent you from wearing self-sustain gear and focusing on single target abilities if you really want to avoid heavy attacking.

blendertoes

Bad idea

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Also, nothing in my proposal would prevent you from wearing self-sustain gear and focusing on single target abilities if you really want to avoid heavy attacking.

I hope you are talking about PVP only. In trials, I run False God's, am a Breton and I still need the synergies provided by the supports in order to sustain with only three AoE skills cast on expiration and a single target spamable. Granted, I am not an elite player, but even one of your suggestions would reduce sustain too much.

And why should we be heavy attacking more? As demonstrated by the last heavy/light attack test that tried to force players to run a heavy attack rotation, the majority of feedback was negative in that it slowed gameplay down and was not fun.

The game should not be balanced around PVP ball groups.

Tommy_The_Gun

I think with upcoming changes to AOE with cooldowns, AOE healing and how it works in group they should re-balance a lot of skills. Like Efficient Purge for example. This morph should be converted to single-target (self) and made 1/3x or 2x cheaper.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

Infinite (or near infinite) sustain isn't really good for PvE either though. The whole point of ESO's combat approach is that you should have to manage your resources. As things stand right now, sustain is so good that DDs can optimize their rotation for max DPS without really worrying about sustain at all.

To be more specific, sustain isn't the reason you're currently using "only three AoE skills cast on expiration" but maybe it should be the reason that in the future you're only using one or two AoE skills and only casting them when there are adds that need to be killed because you can't afford to cast them indiscriminately on expiration.

blendertoes

Bad idea

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Infinite (or near infinite) sustain isn't really good for PvE either though. The whole point of ESO's combat approach is that you should have to manage your resources. As things stand right now, sustain is so good that DDs can optimize their rotation for max DPS without really worrying about sustain at all.

To be more specific, sustain isn't the reason you're currently using "only three AoE skills cast on expiration" but maybe it should be the reason that in the future you're only using one or two AoE skills and only casting them when there are adds that need to be killed because you can't afford to cast them indiscriminately on expiration.

I'm not sure why you think sustain is infinite or nearly so. It takes a coordinated effort from the DPS and supports to position properly and cast the appropriate skills at the appropriate time so that the benefit to the group is maximized. Groups that can do this well should be rewarded with better sustain and therefore more DPS. Sustain was only really good for magicka DPS this patch because of Blood for Blood. Next patch will be a very different story.

the1andonlyskwex

Bad idea

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

relentless_turnip

Meh

I think they should do the things suggested for years by many members of this community.

Make as many skills as possible single target without effecting its viability. Rapid regen should be single target(in PvP) and radiating a group heal.

Heals should only work on group members and should not be able to be stacked. A recast should refresh the effect.

Group sizes should be reduced. So less people can be checked during a cast.

This targets people who spam the most whilst still making healers more important. Healers will have a challenging role with the necessacity to cast different types of heals to keep a group alive. It also means we have to think more carefully about a group structure being that it will be smaller and the buffs, heals etc... Will be far more important. It will make group PvP feel more than the numbers game we currently play.