Is anyone else tired of Minor Slayer destroying PvE endgame variation?

NeillMcAttack

Maybe it's just me, but I find being pigeonholed into particular sets at PvE endgame painfully boring. I'm fairly sure the viability of sets to run at end game could vary a lot more if it weren't for this 3 piece buff. And you could even have more variation relative to class instead of these one size fits all raid sets.
I don't know what we could do with this buff instead, and honestly I don't care. I would be in favor of just straight up removing it altogether and replacing with a more standard 3 piece, but I'm aware that any 'loss in power' is the one thing that whips everyone into a frenzy around here.

So for the sake of argument, lets brainstorm what could be done with it.
1. Make it a raid buff tied to another set, similar to the likes of Infallible aether, though I feel it would just become too meta and just bore everyone's supports.
2. Put it on a raid buff skill (Undaunted Ultimate anyone?) or on a class ultimate, players in a nova, dragonkinght standard, NB shadow ulti....whatever.
3. Lastly, and my favorite, give it to the 2-piece of Perfected Arena weapons! And further more, allow the 2-piece bonus from these weapons to carry over to both bars (the stat bonus, and the new minor slayer), either at all times, or for a time after activating the skill they are tied to.

If you are also bored of "the meta", and can think of other solutions, I may add them here depending on my activity. If you think I'm an idiot and have just played the game too much, also let me know. If you couldn't care less, then have a nice day, thanks for reading regardless.

WrathOfInnos

Minor Slayer becomes less significant with almost every patch. It’s now to the point where the “5%” results in just over 3% DPS for most classes in a coordinated group, and can actually be less than 3% for some builds (Wardens). For comparison, a typical Spell Crit bonus gives about 2.5% DPS.

Pick your sets for the 5 piece bonus, Slayer is overrated.

luen79rwb17_ESO

The real issue is the lack of diversity of useful sets with minor slayer stat.

The stat per se comes from doing endgame PVE so it rewards and boost your character on PVE content. That IMO is WAI.

The thing is we have years of content with sets that are lacking GOOD 5piece sets with the minor slayer stat. By the looks of it, that won't change much for next Update, at least judging on current PTS status.

Drdeath20

Do you understand that the grind for perfected armor sets is not easy for most? Either RNG is against them, they are having trouble finding capable groups or dont have the time to do the same trial dozens of times.

While variety is the spice of life, a large chunk of the player base is exhausted just from grinding 1 new set. Multiply that times how many BiS end game sets you want to make viable. It can get extreme.

I for 1 am happy that the latest set is the best. I can farm out only 1 dungeon/trial a few dozen times and have enough of that armor for multiple toons. There definitely needs to be a happy balance between time grinding for and time enjoying your new toys. I just feel anymore change could disrupt that balance.

Idk maybe most might disagree but its just my $.02

MellowMagic

I think they just need to introduce a monster helm that gives the minor slayer bonus to allow more build diversity in 5pc sets. Example:

1pc bonus (max stam and magic or spell Crit and weapon crit or spell damage and weapon damage)
2pc Grants minor slayer at all times.

Drdeath20

MellowMagic wrote: »

I think they just need to introduce a monster helm that gives the minor slayer bonus to allow more build diversity in 5pc sets. Example:

1pc bonus (max stam and magic or spell Crit and weapon crit or spell damage and weapon damage)
2pc Grants minor slayer at all times.

That is a decent suggestion.

adilazimdegilx

I recently made a poll about putting minor slayer on a monster set:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/539061/minor-slayer-on-a-monster-set#latest

I also think minor slayer on somewhere else than trial sets can help with the diversity problem of PvE sets, wont solve it but would help at least.

amm7sb14_ESO

I'm basically in favor of anything that doesn't pigeon-hole end game players into the same 1 or 2 builds over and over and over and over again.

Because tbh, as a tank, I am dreadfully tired of hearing about Alkosh / Galenwe / Yolnakhriin / Thurvokun as the only things that should ever be run in end game settings.

I'm not sure I've ever really heard of many people dictating sets based off of Minor Slayer / Minor Aegis tho. Like a previous comment up above said, set choices seem to be primarily made on the 5 piece.

josiahva

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Dark_Lord_Kuro

I think they should add trial monster set
They would get
Usual 1 piece bonus
And 2 effect as 2 pieces
The first would be minor slayer
The second would be whatever the feel like to put as an effect on the monster set

I think ussualy monster set second piece are relative to a 5th pieces bonus on a regular set, but all time minor slayer is a 3rd piece bonus so something would need to be added on top of it to make it worthwhile esspecially if it only drop from vet trial

Somewhere

I would prefer us to get rid of minor slayer and change the set 3 bonuses to something else. If only so that some trial sets could have some use even in pvp. Honestly, I would like to use something like perfected false god's in pvp (especially battlegrounds) but the spell crit and minor slayer lines make it a tough sell. It it were more spell damageborbmax magicka instead, I think I would like it.

I get why trial sets have it though. They're designed very specifically for trials and to a lesser degree, dungeons. As a result they get bonuses only useful in those areas.

mairwen85

As I said in another thread

mairwen85 wrote: »

5% is not a huge amount. There are sets that stand up against that on pure stats alone. 5% of nothing is still nothing. You have to be able to do the damage to be buffed in the first place. Pfgd + ms, isn't that much better than julianos + ms, in fact it's the 5pc on false god (cost reduction and rebate) that wins out in that scenario, not the slayer buff. Similarly, siroria isn't that impressive in raw stats, but its an escalating damage set (with a movement restriction); unless you get a decent time on that circle of might, the 5% slayer bonus wont mean much at all.

Slayer isn't the primary reason sets get over looked in endgame (there's a couple 'slayer' sets that rarely get used at all), it's the proc and 5pc bonuses.

Vermintide

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

Runefang

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

amm7sb14_ESO

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

+1

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

mairwen85

Runefang wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

Totally agree. 50K on the trial dummy is a perfectly reasonable expectation for dps in vet content. As for burning through mechanics, anything hp gated still applies, you just progress through it faster, and mech that requires players actually do something (eg synergising symbols or carrying spice to water) still have to be done.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

You can build casually and play casually, with as much uniqueness as you like, and as long as you have a good rotation and understand the relevant buffs, you can be hitting 50K on the dummy too. Rotation and knowledge trumps gear.

ccfeeling

I have never think about it ...

Organized group , rotation , skills setup are much much more important than the minor slayer , and the 5pc effect is the main reason I pick the set .

Say for example
If the boss move a lot , I will drop the relequen , dress something more useful , I am not really care about the MA tho .

Soulshine

mairwen85 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

Totally agree. 50K on the trial dummy is a perfectly reasonable expectation for dps in vet content. As for burning through mechanics, anything hp gated still applies, you just progress through it faster, and mech that requires players actually do something (eg synergising symbols or carrying spice to water) still have to be done.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

You can build casually and play casually, with as much uniqueness as you like, and as long as you have a good rotation and understand the relevant buffs, you can be hitting 50K on the dummy too. Rotation and knowledge trumps gear.

This last, while true, seems to be what people in trial guilds categorically never care about and you will not even get the option to prove your skills at actually playing are good if you can't come to the table with the gear they demand you to have on to do your job. Even when they say that they can be flexible with this point, many are not.

Case in point, I recently saw a trials guild make a recruitment announcement in game as I was playing one of my alts. Their pitch was that they were "not elitist" and were tired of the "elitist snobbery" around hardcore play and so their focus was to be open to all play-styles working together, learning, progressing, forming dedicated teams, etc.

I thought, hey! maybe this is finally a good one to respond to. I applied. They accepted straight away, sent me a link to their discord. I land on the welcome page and the message of please read the rules. The rules where longer and more detailed that the year has months, and categorically spelled out what gear you could (and could not) be wearing in a trial group. So, needless to say, THAT was a big red flag, and I dropped myself out as fast as I had dropped in.

I have done most all the vet DLCs on my healer and several trials without meta gear and have never had a problem "doing my job." Could the meta gear help me do that more efficiently and easily - I say depends. Because as was pointed out, every group (short of a totally optimized group that already knows each other) it's a crap shoot what you have to work with. I prefer to stay on my toes and not take for granted that I won't have to vary one inch out of a cookie cutter build and rotation just because that is ALL somebody told me I should be doing.

Boring as hell, and is largely why I stopped raiding in this game ages ago.

amm7sb14_ESO

mairwen85 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

Totally agree. 50K on the trial dummy is a perfectly reasonable expectation for dps in vet content. As for burning through mechanics, anything hp gated still applies, you just progress through it faster, and mech that requires players actually do something (eg synergising symbols or carrying spice to water) still have to be done.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

You can build casually and play casually, with as much uniqueness as you like, and as long as you have a good rotation and understand the relevant buffs, you can be hitting 50K on the dummy too. Rotation and knowledge trumps gear.

I dont play DPS, so damage #'s mean nothing to my characters lol.

idk

Remove minor slayer and we still end up with the same number of ideal sets to choose from. In the end, it makes little difference to our choices for gearing up to do trials. Wrathofinnos said it well.

Runefang

Soulshine wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

Totally agree. 50K on the trial dummy is a perfectly reasonable expectation for dps in vet content. As for burning through mechanics, anything hp gated still applies, you just progress through it faster, and mech that requires players actually do something (eg synergising symbols or carrying spice to water) still have to be done.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

You can build casually and play casually, with as much uniqueness as you like, and as long as you have a good rotation and understand the relevant buffs, you can be hitting 50K on the dummy too. Rotation and knowledge trumps gear.

This last, while true, seems to be what people in trial guilds categorically never care about and you will not even get the option to prove your skills at actually playing are good if you can't come to the table with the gear they demand you to have on to do your job. Even when they say that they can be flexible with this point, many are not.

Case in point, I recently saw a trials guild make a recruitment announcement in game as I was playing one of my alts. Their pitch was that they were "not elitist" and were tired of the "elitist snobbery" around hardcore play and so their focus was to be open to all play-styles working together, learning, progressing, forming dedicated teams, etc.

I thought, hey! maybe this is finally a good one to respond to. I applied. They accepted straight away, sent me a link to their discord. I land on the welcome page and the message of please read the rules. The rules where longer and more detailed that the year has months, and categorically spelled out what gear you could (and could not) be wearing in a trial group. So, needless to say, THAT was a big red flag, and I dropped myself out as fast as I had dropped in.

I have done most all the vet DLCs on my healer and several trials without meta gear and have never had a problem "doing my job." Could the meta gear help me do that more efficiently and easily - I say depends. Because as was pointed out, every group (short of a totally optimized group that already knows each other) it's a crap shoot what you have to work with. I prefer to stay on my toes and not take for granted that I won't have to vary one inch out of a cookie cutter build and rotation just because that is ALL somebody told me I should be doing.

Boring as hell, and is largely why I stopped raiding in this game ages ago.

Support roles are always set up such that the gears and classes they run is optimised to provide the best group buffs across all 4 support players. You can call that elitist, but many people just call that contributing to the group. It's not that dissimilar to a DPS being told to run Zen, MK, MA or even being told to run a Necromancer.

Everybody has their own definition of "fun", "casual" and "elitist", you have to find a group that suits your definition.

idk

Runefang wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

Totally agree. 50K on the trial dummy is a perfectly reasonable expectation for dps in vet content. As for burning through mechanics, anything hp gated still applies, you just progress through it faster, and mech that requires players actually do something (eg synergising symbols or carrying spice to water) still have to be done.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

You can build casually and play casually, with as much uniqueness as you like, and as long as you have a good rotation and understand the relevant buffs, you can be hitting 50K on the dummy too. Rotation and knowledge trumps gear.

This last, while true, seems to be what people in trial guilds categorically never care about and you will not even get the option to prove your skills at actually playing are good if you can't come to the table with the gear they demand you to have on to do your job. Even when they say that they can be flexible with this point, many are not.

Case in point, I recently saw a trials guild make a recruitment announcement in game as I was playing one of my alts. Their pitch was that they were "not elitist" and were tired of the "elitist snobbery" around hardcore play and so their focus was to be open to all play-styles working together, learning, progressing, forming dedicated teams, etc.

I thought, hey! maybe this is finally a good one to respond to. I applied. They accepted straight away, sent me a link to their discord. I land on the welcome page and the message of please read the rules. The rules where longer and more detailed that the year has months, and categorically spelled out what gear you could (and could not) be wearing in a trial group. So, needless to say, THAT was a big red flag, and I dropped myself out as fast as I had dropped in.

I have done most all the vet DLCs on my healer and several trials without meta gear and have never had a problem "doing my job." Could the meta gear help me do that more efficiently and easily - I say depends. Because as was pointed out, every group (short of a totally optimized group that already knows each other) it's a crap shoot what you have to work with. I prefer to stay on my toes and not take for granted that I won't have to vary one inch out of a cookie cutter build and rotation just because that is ALL somebody told me I should be doing.

Boring as hell, and is largely why I stopped raiding in this game ages ago.

Support roles are always set up such that the gears and classes they run is optimised to provide the best group buffs across all 4 support players. You can call that elitist, but many people just call that contributing to the group. It's not that dissimilar to a DPS being told to run Zen, MK, MA or even being told to run a Necromancer.

Everybody has their own definition of "fun", "casual" and "elitist", you have to find a group that suits your definition.

It is more than contributing to the group. It is being part of a well-run group that is working towards or obtaining optimization.

volkeswagon

destroying? Lol

Soulshine

Runefang wrote: »

Soulshine wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Vermintide wrote: »

josiahva wrote: »

There is only one solution to the Meta....don't play it. Yes, I understand playing something oddball often excludes you from endgame content, but the real problem here is that people are more interested in pushing their own personal bests of whatever metric than they are in being challenged. Point in case....you queue for some vet DLC dungeon and for whatever reason your group wipes on the first or second boss and one of the DPS or the tank or the healer quits because they don't feel the DPS is high enough to get them through the dungeon in a certain amount of time.

I understand the feeling(since I main a tank and have for years) but the result is that the person who quits really is not interested in any type of challenge and they just want to get through the content as fast as possible, they are dying because the other people don't know the mechs, or the tank isnt able to hold aggro, or the DPS is low enough it makes the fights so long that survival becomes difficult, or any number of other reasons. Instead of adapting to whatever the situation calls for, they just quit and try to find a group they have an easier time with. I understand this and have done so myself from time to time.

The point is...if you are truly bored with what you have been doing...do something else. If you still want to do trials with your funky off-meta build because you enjoy playing it...that is perfectly fine, the only real problem is you will be forced to start or find a guild or like-minded people to play with. Progression guilds will never let you play what you want to play, only whatever the meta is that is best for the group, which is perfectly understandable. As it stands right now, if you want to use some less used gear and build choices....vet DLC dungeons(and 4 man arenas) are the hardest content you will be able to get away with it without someone saying something unless you make a guild specifically allowing more freedom in build choices.

Totally agree man.

Someone in one of my guild chats was whining about low DPS in their PUG runs the other day, and as the conversation went on it turned out their idea of "good" DPS was 50k+ on a 21m dummy. I'm just stay there laughing to myself thinking, well, talk about unrealistic expectations. When your idea of acceptable is the performance acheived by the top 10% of dedicated hardcore players, and you're expecting that out of PUG queue randoms? You need a change of perspective. Too bad, you might have to do all four phases of the boss for once.

DPS threshold has never mattered much in this game. It's only the very hardest endgame PVE content that even has DPS/healing checks (i.e a hard limit you need to exceed in order to progress), and even then, the level is pretty low. The rest of it you can comfortably, easily beat with off meta casual builds as long as you play properly. I'm a PVP player who has no patience whatsoever for grinding and optimising my PVE gear, I've had the same set of Juli/MS and the same skill bars on my magblade for about 3 years, and I still manage ~30k numbers. I have done all the DLC dungeons, and participated in plenty of successful trial runs- You don't need to be skipping mechanics and 1 cycling bosses.

Players are their own worst enemy when it comes to endgame balance, endgame longevity, etc etc. It's the same in any MMO, the players break apart every possible metric and focus on the most optimal top 0.0001% efficiency, while disregarding everything else; and then they complain that they're bored and unhappy with it when they get there. If you're intentionally breaking the mechanics and ignoring half the game as your metric of success, then I really don't have much sympathy if you say it's unsatisfying.

But... Then again. This is why I'm a PVP player, not PVE.

But 50k on a 21m dummy is actually incredibly low.... so its not a bad expectation from a pug.

And the notion that mechanics are skipped with high dps is mostly untrue. Typically it just means you are exposed to mechanics less often. Yes there are exceptions of course, mostly in content that is easy anyway. But generally it doesn't let you get away from difficult mechanics.

Totally agree. 50K on the trial dummy is a perfectly reasonable expectation for dps in vet content. As for burning through mechanics, anything hp gated still applies, you just progress through it faster, and mech that requires players actually do something (eg synergising symbols or carrying spice to water) still have to be done.

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

It's why I play in "casual" guilds and run off-meta builds. Aspiring for the same builds as everyone else, removing all the individuality and personality from people's characters, just to plow through all the content with "max efficiency" just isn't a fun way to play the game, for me.

You can build casually and play casually, with as much uniqueness as you like, and as long as you have a good rotation and understand the relevant buffs, you can be hitting 50K on the dummy too. Rotation and knowledge trumps gear.

This last, while true, seems to be what people in trial guilds categorically never care about and you will not even get the option to prove your skills at actually playing are good if you can't come to the table with the gear they demand you to have on to do your job. Even when they say that they can be flexible with this point, many are not.

Case in point, I recently saw a trials guild make a recruitment announcement in game as I was playing one of my alts. Their pitch was that they were "not elitist" and were tired of the "elitist snobbery" around hardcore play and so their focus was to be open to all play-styles working together, learning, progressing, forming dedicated teams, etc.

I thought, hey! maybe this is finally a good one to respond to. I applied. They accepted straight away, sent me a link to their discord. I land on the welcome page and the message of please read the rules. The rules where longer and more detailed that the year has months, and categorically spelled out what gear you could (and could not) be wearing in a trial group. So, needless to say, THAT was a big red flag, and I dropped myself out as fast as I had dropped in.

I have done most all the vet DLCs on my healer and several trials without meta gear and have never had a problem "doing my job." Could the meta gear help me do that more efficiently and easily - I say depends. Because as was pointed out, every group (short of a totally optimized group that already knows each other) it's a crap shoot what you have to work with. I prefer to stay on my toes and not take for granted that I won't have to vary one inch out of a cookie cutter build and rotation just because that is ALL somebody told me I should be doing.

Boring as hell, and is largely why I stopped raiding in this game ages ago.

Support roles are always set up such that the gears and classes they run is optimised to provide the best group buffs across all 4 support players. You can call that elitist, but many people just call that contributing to the group. It's not that dissimilar to a DPS being told to run Zen, MK, MA or even being told to run a Necromancer.

Everybody has their own definition of "fun", "casual" and "elitist", you have to find a group that suits your definition.

Hehe. I am aware of that. I ran in groups for years here. I was trying to illustrate that even when groups claim (in their own words about themselves, not mine...) that they are "not elitist" yet in the same breath demand people come to the table with meta gear sets already in tow because that is what "the elite" wear and wont accept anything else (again in their own words, hence the quotes), by definition they are doing exactly what they advertised disliking: dictating to their members what sets to wear. Its a bit of a silly catch 22.

More honest and straightforward to advertise you are seeking trial players already geared and call it a day, and dispense with the ridiculous sales pitch which isn't even accurate.

In any case, I have plenty of sets in vault and in my bag to use on the alt in question, but I know from experience I have had zero issues doing what I needed to for groups I've been a part of even when I didn't wear everything usually expected.

laksikus

I remember back in the day when staffs counted as 1p only and people were still willpower. IA 3p was about the same as willpoeer 3p back then.

And even now the difference between slayer and a normal set is pretty low. Probably low enough that if you struggle with farming perfected gear, polishing your rotation will give you a bigger benifit than slayer

YandereGirlfriend

I think that both perspectives make compelling points, though at the end of the day, I, too, would rather see the entire Slayer series of buffs replaced with more creative bonuses.

The buffs are basically developer-endorsed power creep (and intended to be a lure for new content...) but with an uninspired, brute-force approach of simply handing you a generic damage amplification.

At least Major Slayer sets have modest mechanics involved in their use and efficient deployment (though Lokke certainly stretches the definition of 'mechanics') but Minor Slayer at this point just seems like a standardization shortcut for the devs when it comes to cranking out new trial sets.

IMO, having trial sets that behave more like Siroria are what I would like to see more of: sets that augment one of the basic building blocks of builds (in this case, Spell Damage) and that require some modest amount of skill to get the most out of.

Imagine converting the Major Slayer sets to instead grant +15% Critical Chance for 6 group members for every 50k damage done by the wearer in a 10-second interval that begins every 20 seconds or +1000 individual Spell or Weapon Damage for for every 15 points of Ultimate expended (numbers are whatever, this is just for supposition) and giving players more freedom to consider some different equities when building groups and characters.

Of course, there will always be a meta and an optimized way to do things but at the end of the day it simply feels more RPG to use elements that are found on your stat sheet rather than the abstract sledgehammer of Slayer.