Skill Ceilings

Augusten15

So from my experience in most MMO's, certain classes are usually harder to play than others but more rewarding when learned properly.
This game seems to be the opposite though and I'm wondering if it's simply targeted towards a more casual audience.

I'm more focused on no-cp because without being 810 you're simply at a handicap and it takes a good long time to get there.

Since a majority of classes have subpar melee spammables you wind up with a majority of players running the exact same 2 skills. DS and Execute. Now these hit so insanely hard there must be a counter right? Well since charges have no CD's, you can't distance yourself so all you can do is roll. A lot. It's actually kind of funny to watch as a mass of players are repeatedly popping off the same 2 attack animations, just dunking away. So we have melee combat reduced to 3 skill buttons, and a dodge. Getting low on health? Well every stam character knows exactly what to use next. Button number 4, Rally! Then fill in slot 5 with your passive crit increase and you're good to go.

For ranged, just snipe. Watch a youtube video where someone did the math to score 10k crits and you can 1 button spam your way to thinking your the best there ever was. Some "insert class here" maintenance skills with vigor and you're set. This is the essence of every stam PvPer out there because class skills just don't compete. (except templars imo)

Then we have magicka players who wish to perform on par with stam builds. They can't spam roll dodges and rally for days so in order to stay competitive they need to split their resources 3 ways just enough to allow for a CC break and a couple rolls before they can use their built in class toolkit to stop the onslaught of Dizzy Swings. Toolkits which seem to be severely lacking. All while maintaining enough HP to survive the half second it takes to break CC and the magicka to out DPS above mentioned strategies before they get buried. NBs can roll to stealth but any half competent stamina build can reveal them while still being on their first skill bar. Sorc, TP/Stun/Damage and then chunk restore health and mag so they are more than fine. The rest generally have to spam self heals while they get beat on like a dungeon boss with the same two skills. The damage output is so high, you can't stop healing to even force out the DPS to compete.

So someone enlighten me as to what I'm missing in this game. Yes, in Cyro we get some pretty impressive clips of the rare few who LoS in all gold gear like no other but I rarely see a mag character succeed without wrapping around structures and simply outplaying a stam char.

Now for groups.. AvA and even BGs are centered almost exclusively on stacking. Generally I would expect there to be some form of counter such as spammable AoE's considering how abundant AoE heals are but for the most part it's just pissing in to a forest fire when a zerg ball comes rolling. Either jump in and start spamming weapon abilities until you die or stay at a distance and poke. It just doesn't feel like there are options. Even in BGs, there's no strategy that involves spreading out what-so-ever because there is no counter to balling up.

Now feel free shred off small quotes and give smart ass retorts but before you do, just know this isn't an ESO hate post. When I start to improve my game play and builds I naturally start to perform pretty well and assume my MMR increases as a result. At some point during this I run in to the "stamspam" meta brick wall and not only do I not see myself improving beyond this point but I don't see teammates or enemies who are mag based able to keep up at all either (sorcs not included, they actually seem to get stronger).

I simply want to know if what I just described is what everyone else is seeing or if I'm blinded to some hard fought effort and finesse hidden behind the recap. Maybe it's possible to outplay the 2h/bow meta class without joining it but I'm simply not seeing it.

idk

Not sure your experience but in both PvP and PvE the skill level is fairly wide. The only way this is hidden is by fighting large groups and zergs.

This is most notable in PvE where some players can barely hit 10k dps while just the average player is doing several times that. It is really sad when finding a CP810 player that struggles to maintain 10k DPS.

The problem with PvP is players can go very tanky which can cover up a player's lack of experience. The other issue is proc sets that require pretty much no skill to use. However, a skilled player still comes up on top in most cases because they are better at avoiding and mitigating damage and do not rely on gimmicks.

In the end I have not read every word you have said as there is a lot, but I do not see much other than complaining. I will provide some examples of counters to a couple of the situations.

1. Executes. They are very weak unless one lets their health get low. Avoid damage and heal and they are nothing to worry about. The idea is to make yourself harder to kill while killing the other player.
2. NB going into stealth, just counter them with one of the numerous hard and soft counters. Not wanting to slot one is a personal issue but a lesser skilled NB is very easy to pull out of cloak and kill. A more experienced NB is not a one-trick pony and will win over on a lesser skilled player as it should be more times than not with any pairing regardless of class.

Joxer61

isn't there a PVP sub-forum this could have been posted in?
omg!! I sound like @Taleof2Cities!!

Vermintide

idk wrote: »

In the end I have not read every word you have said .

Maybe you should, because he actually said pretty much the same things as you later in the post.

I agree somewhat with OP, but I disargree that there's a 2-button OP win combo. I main a magblade, which many people agree is very weak this patch, and after a bit of adjustment it's pretty easy to counter when you know it's coming.

This is just something that's always going to be a problem with MMO design. There is always a "meta", there will be always be one type of build that outperforms all the others. Sometimes it's only by a few fractions of a percent, sometimes it's by a vast margin, but either way it's technically the best. So that's what all the players gravitate to.

The trouble with this game right now is that ZOS has taken the lazy route, and instead of providing each class/build with unique, strong combinations, they've just made everything basically do the same. Class skills are hardly used by a lot of builds. It has become very homogenous- Go look at something like Alcast's PVP builds... There's one thing you'll notice- 90% of them are using the exact same gear, regardless of class, and sometimes even regardless of mag or stam.

Player skill will always be a factor, obviously, but even so, most of the skilled players will switch over to whichever one of their toons performs the best in the current meta. Otherwise they are just playing with a handicap, and then there you have it, the meta gets even more entrenched. It's a vicious cycle.

Taleof2Cities

Joxer61 wrote: »

isn't there a PVP sub-forum this could have been posted in?
omg!! I sound like @Taleof2Cities!!

lucky_Sage

There is definitely a skill ceiling but zos has lowered it sadly by taking away counter play. adding back and more proc sets.
But in my opinion other Than surprise attack all stam spammables are very boring and clunky which is why I can’t play them.
Example for skill I main a Magdk the meta pvp build is elf bane malacath and grotgarr I don’t run that when I fight those they never kill me it’s always me killing them but they are using the “cheese meta build”