What's the point in having vdlc dungeon in random rotation

Necrotiger

If tank and healer instantly leave them every single time?

Dusk_Coven

If they were fake tanks / fake heals, they should leave no question.
If they were real tank and real heals, they could at least ask the group if they cleared the content before.
If they didn't want to do that particular dungeon... yeah, they should leave too. Then it's an issue of the dungeon basically being so not-fun that they are willing to take the deserter penalty.

The problem with veteran group finder is it's too much of a crapshoot what you get. All those people hoping for Veteran Fungal Grotto because that's all they have time for should definitely drop right away.

Athyrium93

Tank and healer leave because
A. They don't think they are good enough to do them.
B. They don't want to because they take forever
C. Very very little gear we want is in them
D. Dps varies greatly, most dungeons can be carried, vDLCs can not (usually)
F. It will take us less time to take the leave penalty, re-queue, instantly get a dungeon, do said non-DLC dungeon, decon and sell gear, complete the entire story quest, take an hour break for dinner, do another non-DLC dungeon, find all 400+ skyshards, get the explorer title, level a new toon to 50, organize our own group to run the original vDLC (with our newly leveled toon), run it with a no-death HM clear, and still be done before the average pug has finished the first boss...

Other reasons can include: one or more dps has low CP, low health, a name like XxXback_stabs_and_light_bow_attack_spam_4_lifeXxX which rightly or wrongly gives the connotation they will be a jerk, they hate the dungeon more than life it's self, insert anything else here.....

I think it comes down to tanks and healers being in shorter supply so they can be picky, which makes it harder for everyone else. Personally for me, I'm not good enough to heal the vDLCs and know if I try it will be unpleasant for everyone and I'll be risking getting harassed by a dps with 12k health who stands in red and keeps dying, so it's not worth it, I'll just re-queue.

mobicera

Most likely if they left they either saw something which indicates that the group or at least enough of the group is clueless about group content(ie. Double 2 hand 35k hp dps). Vdlc pretty much require an average group based build to clear comfortably.
Or they could feel they aren't good enough (some of this may in fact be due to pugging).
To be honest if you want to clear vdlc its best to just group with friends/guildies you can communicate address issues with logic and most importantly learn.

AlnilamE

Because someone wants to do that dungeon and they should be able to get help from the group finder.

gatekeeper13

vDLC dungeons with pugs are nightmare most of the time.

Tried vFV the other day, 2 different tanks and none would pull or hold adds in second boss, none would keep boss in the center, all blamed DDs and healer.

Tried vLoM for 3 days... First 4 groups couldnt pass 3rd boss because other dd did very low dps and tank didnt debuff at all.... Got a 5th group, which was decent and we cleared it in around 35-40min with only one member death and that because of lag.

So, question is... Why should anyone pug for random vet Dungeons and risk getting a DLC one?

tomofhyrule

There was just a thread about this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537436/option-to-exclude-dlc-dungeons-from-the-random-queue-for-plus-members/p1

I think most of it has to do with the incredible spike in difficulty from vBase to vDLC.

I will say that I don't run the daily random unless I'm in a group with my guild since I don't want to end up in a dungeon I don't know, and I'm still learning how to do vet DLCs. I've had enough bad experiences PUGging the basegame pledges that I can see why support roles don't like to PUG.

It's just obnoxious to be in a vet basegame dungeon and get blamed for not doing your job when the squishy DPS is standing in the red the whole time, or running out of the heals, or running behind the tank and getting hit with a cone AoE. Or for tanks, when you claw everything down and the DPS can't even burn the trash down before the root expires and they scatter so you have to get them all back in, or when the DPS charges ahead of you and then runs around the room like crazy and complains that you aren't chaining all 15 adds in immediately while you're trying to maintain the stack you did make with no resources. All while the DPS is spamming light attacks and doing less than 10k DPS without AoE damage or synergies. I've noticed those are also the ones who trash talk the most in dungeons about 'l2p' and initiate votes to kick...

EDIT: not that I'm implying that all DPS are bad - there are plenty of examples of tanks who forget to taunt or pierce armor or something, and healers who don't know how to throw out AoE heals or synergies as well. A vDLC really requires all four roles to play pretty well, so any one weak link is a problem and leade to a long run or an incomplete.

I've had one or two PUGs that really made me stop to think if I really wanted to do group content with randoms. It's thankless, everyone expects perfection (and some expect carries), and there's no way to learn how to do support roles well without a guild. I can't imagine subjecting myself to that for a vDLC. I'll only do vDLC with a guild that's willing to teach me mechanics and correct my mistakes without being condescending, and voice comms are pretty well required for that.

But here's the thing for me - I don't do the random daily. I don't want to end up in a dungeon I don't feel comfortable with, so I don't waste anyone's time by signing up hoping for FGI. There are a lot of support roles who will just sign in and drop just to get that sweet XP from a vet basegame since they are able to drop and requeue before the original group even gets a replacement. I would not be opposed to increasing the deserter penalty in those cases.

josiahva

For me its the opposite. I want ONLY DLC dungeons in the random dungeon queue...so if people can opt out of DLC dungeons, for the love of god, please let me opt out of non-DLC dungeons.

Dusk_Coven

Necrotiger wrote: »

If tank and healer instantly leave them every single time?

SWTOR is having a similar conversation -- about people immediately leaving certain randomly selected maps for group content immediately (there they are talking about PvP group finder match maps where some people are leaving immediately because they really hate those maps or they find them very buggy). http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9863211#edit9863211
Clearly they are taking player experience seriously and they prove it by putting it in writing. They are putting serious reasoned through into it, not just caving to whoever's shouting the loudest on the forums.

If only ESO could have a similar analysis and conversation with the players about DLC dungeons in the queue, and player behavior in the group finder in general.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Grianasteri

In general, I see almost as many dps leave as tonks n healz…

Clearly when a tonk or healz leave its likely to be because they are fake and/or were just queueing for the quick daily xp and I think that's actually the reason most folk leave at the start, whatever role they are.

If I am just queueing for a quick daily xp dungeon clear, I certainly don't want to get mired down in a dlc vet dungeon that needs the group to know the mechs and/or needs a good tonk, and/or needs high dps…

Sometimes I will give it until the 1st boss, but manys a time you can tell from the first add pull, the pug isn't capable of progressing, so why stick around? My time is precious, I don't have long and I like to utillise it as best I can. I know roughly how long completing such a dungeon will take even with a decent team, often I don't wish to spend the time I have like that.

If I leave, I tend to give an explanation to the group before hand, and make my apologies.

Ascarl

Nobody wants random DLC dungeons. They don t offer anything for the effort. Those who need a set item will queue for a specific dungeon.

Tank and most of the time healer get semi-instant queues that's why they are leaving.

Ascarl

PS the only solution iMHO is a disable DLC option for randoms

Magdalina

Ascarl wrote: »

Nobody wants random DLC dungeons. They don t offer anything for the effort. Those who need a set item will queue for a specific dungeon.

Tank and most of the time healer get semi-instant queues that's why they are leaving.

Yay I'm nobody That was mean, you know. To call a whole category of players whose playstyle differs from yours 'nobody'.

ccfeeling

Don't expect you could complete the VDLC dungeons when you use group finder lol

ZOS create some difficult mechanics and minimum dps race for some DLC dungeons .

Say for examples
Lair of Maarselok - Azureblight Cancroid
Moongrave - Nisaazda & Grundwulf
Frostvault - Vault Protector
Depths of Malatar - King Narilmor

Well balanced group and high team communication are required , you miss it you fail .

XxCaLxX

Idk why it can’t just be like it was a few years ago when you queued for a dungeon and got the ready check it would say what dungeon it was. I know they had reasons to remove that feature but getting queued faster only for members to leave kinda defeats the purpose.

Dusk_Coven

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Idk why it can’t just be like it was a few years ago when you queued for a dungeon and got the ready check it would say what dungeon it was. I know they had reasons to remove that feature but getting queued faster only for members to leave kinda defeats the purpose.

Maybe because people left pre-emptively when they saw what they didn't like or when it wasn't Fungal Grotto I?
Whatever sounds reasonable, enough players will exploit to ruin it for everyone else.

XxCaLxX

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Idk why it can’t just be like it was a few years ago when you queued for a dungeon and got the ready check it would say what dungeon it was. I know they had reasons to remove that feature but getting queued faster only for members to leave kinda defeats the purpose.

Maybe because people left pre-emptively when they saw what they didn't like or when it wasn't Fungal Grotto I?
Whatever sounds reasonable, enough players will exploit to ruin it for everyone else.

Not sure if you’re understanding what I’m saying. If you’re queued and ready check pops up and says accept for vet falkreath or whatever then if you’re just looking for FG I or whatever then you’re not going to accept the ready check to just leave group therefore you’re not wasting yours or others time by loading into dungeon, leaving and forcing others to just q to fill that spot again.

VoluptaBox

Ascarl wrote: »

Nobody wants random DLC dungeons. They don t offer anything for the effort. Those who need a set item will queue for a specific dungeon.

Tank and most of the time healer get semi-instant queues that's why they are leaving.

i can't ever agree with the option of removing DLC dungeons because it would, quite frankly, defeat the purpose of it being random in the first place. You could get a dungeon that you can solo in a few minutes or one that you will struggle with for an hour or won't be able to complete at all. It's what you sign up for when you press that button and want to get those rewards.

adilazimdegilx

Only time I consider to use random VET dungeon finder is when I'm trying to level my undaunted on a new character (after properly geared for role). However this does not require DLC dungeons, completing non DLC ones usually enough to get it to max level. And I dont really see any other reason since rewards are exactly same as normal. So I usually dont even bother and queue for specific dungeons. If I had an option to exclude DLC dungeons while searching veterans I would use it.
Why people use it anyway? Just do a random normal for daily.

Implementing something like 'Random vDLC dungeons require veteran completion achivement' might work I guess.

FeignInterest

I'd like to see a confidence/knowledge indicator for dungeon grouping. You could then queue for dungeons where everyone is prepared to have a few wipes whilst they learn the mechs or join a speed run 'everyone is confident' queue. You might even get some kind souls joining the unconfident groups to take the 'teacher' role. Be good for the community and reduce the kick votes because someone is, heaven forbid, learning the game!
But to be fair, that's kind of what guilds offer and is why, as a healer and tank, I only join random dungeons with my guild mates unless I'm very confident with the mechs. I know my role is important to success and I don't want to waste people's time.

Red_Feather

It's been complained about for as long as I been playing the game, which is 2 years now.

The devs do not get how much the dlc dungeons are not wanted by the average player. It's like talking to a wall.

Tsar_Gekkou

VoluptaBox wrote: »

Ascarl wrote: »

Nobody wants random DLC dungeons. They don t offer anything for the effort. Those who need a set item will queue for a specific dungeon.

Tank and most of the time healer get semi-instant queues that's why they are leaving.

i can't ever agree with the option of removing DLC dungeons because it would, quite frankly, defeat the purpose of it being random in the first place. You could get a dungeon that you can solo in a few minutes or one that you will struggle with for an hour or won't be able to complete at all. It's what you sign up for when you press that button and want to get those rewards.

But people who pay monthly for ESO+ get screwed over while people who don't can run quick and easy dungeons all day. What we need is for our in-game ESO+ benefits to be able to be toggled on and off at will. That way people who want the same random dungeon experience as those who don't sub can toggle their sub off, do their dungeon, and then toggle it back on afterwards.

amm7sb14_ESO

tomofhyrule wrote: »

There was just a thread about this: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/537436/option-to-exclude-dlc-dungeons-from-the-random-queue-for-plus-members/p1

I think most of it has to do with the incredible spike in difficulty from vBase to vDLC.

I will say that I don't run the daily random unless I'm in a group with my guild since I don't want to end up in a dungeon I don't know, and I'm still learning how to do vet DLCs. I've had enough bad experiences PUGging the basegame pledges that I can see why support roles don't like to PUG.

It's just obnoxious to be in a vet basegame dungeon and get blamed for not doing your job when the squishy DPS is standing in the red the whole time, or running out of the heals, or running behind the tank and getting hit with a cone AoE. Or for tanks, when you claw everything down and the DPS can't even burn the trash down before the root expires and they scatter so you have to get them all back in, or when the DPS charges ahead of you and then runs around the room like crazy and complains that you aren't chaining all 15 adds in immediately while you're trying to maintain the stack you did make with no resources. All while the DPS is spamming light attacks and doing less than 10k DPS without AoE damage or synergies. I've noticed those are also the ones who trash talk the most in dungeons about 'l2p' and initiate votes to kick...

EDIT: not that I'm implying that all DPS are bad - there are plenty of examples of tanks who forget to taunt or pierce armor or something, and healers who don't know how to throw out AoE heals or synergies as well. A vDLC really requires all four roles to play pretty well, so any one weak link is a problem and leade to a long run or an incomplete.

I've had one or two PUGs that really made me stop to think if I really wanted to do group content with randoms. It's thankless, everyone expects perfection (and some expect carries), and there's no way to learn how to do support roles well without a guild. I can't imagine subjecting myself to that for a vDLC. I'll only do vDLC with a guild that's willing to teach me mechanics and correct my mistakes without being condescending, and voice comms are pretty well required for that.

But here's the thing for me - I don't do the random daily. I don't want to end up in a dungeon I don't feel comfortable with, so I don't waste anyone's time by signing up hoping for FGI. There are a lot of support roles who will just sign in and drop just to get that sweet XP from a vet basegame since they are able to drop and requeue before the original group even gets a replacement. I would not be opposed to increasing the deserter penalty in those cases.

I agree with so much of what you said.

I've been around since beta, with various breaks here and there due to burnout or system issues (I had a PC meltdown that forced me over to X-Box, and then returned to PC years later when I got my system upgraded and up and running again), but due to those breaks and system swaps, I'm pretty relatively new to endgame content. Despite being around in beta, my breaks and system changes kept me from reaching CP levels until like... February I think? I came back in December to create a Necro with Elsweyr, and that's when I finally got to CP160. In my earlier days, the most advanced content I had done was normal Banished Cells / Fungal Grotto / Elden Hollow. I decided through my leveling journey that I wanted to build my necro as a tank (I had a long back and forth debate between tank and dps through the course of my leveling).

When I first started getting into tanking, I was nervous. It was new to me. I had only played a tank in an MMO once before, in Warhammer Online. I had certainly never been an endgame tank before in any game, and my personal vision of "tank" was the heavy armored damage builds I could build in Skyrim or Oblivion where armor didn't determine your damage output. So it took a little bit for me to learn the ropes of tanking, and learn just exactly what my responsibilities were beyond just having heavy armor and taunting. But I certainly wanted to learn and figure it out.

But some of my first attempts at tanking dlc content with Activity Finder? 2 instances that stand out in my head that to this day, despite all of my improvements and successful runs, have tainted my perception of certain dungeons, and even tanking in general.

Normal Falkreath Hold. One of my very first tanking attempts (probably not the best dungeon for an early tank run, admittedly, but it's what the random gave me). I don't even remember how far we got, or what happened, because as far as I knew I was doing my job. But before we even got to a boss, someone just commented in group chat "Worst tank ever"

No attempt to even ask me if I knew mechanics, just a straight up "worst tank ever". I don't have time for that. So I dipped.

Normal Moon Hunter Keep. We got to the boss who displays the glyphs over his head and you have to find the matching aura to save yourself. My first time ever running that dungeon, still early on in my tanking career. We wiped a few times. None of us in the group were really too sure what to do. After a few wipes, one of the dps comments "Hold on, let me explain the mechanics". Myself and the other dps are standing waiting for the explanation, and the healer decides to rush in on his own. One dps is knees deep in typing out a mechanics explanation, while the other dps and myself are waiting, not prepared to engage the fight. The healer goes in, aggros the boss, insta dies, and because none of us were ready, the werewolves come and take us out one at a time. Obviously, it's a wipe. The healer then pipes up "F'ing tank can't hold aggro". Once again, I immediately left. No time for that.

Now, I am a somewhat seasoned tank. I have been able to successfully tank the hardest vet DLC dungeons, I have been able to successfully tank any and every trial on normal (tho I do have trouble with the Yolnakhriin fight in SS - it's an issue of still not fully understanding all the mechs yet) as well as some on vet (I haven't tried them all on vet, but I've been successful in the ones I have attempted). I think I'm pretty good at what I do - I've gotten a lot of compliments from both guildies and randos alike. I'm still learning - mostly mechs of certain dungeons I haven't done a lot, but I'm good.

But I still refuse to do vet randoms in the activity finder. Because even if I know the mechs, most don't. I don't think I've done a single run of Unhallowed Grave where at least 1, if not more, did not understand the mechanics. It gets tiresome knowing that I am going to have to explain the mechanics every. single. time. And turn a hopeful 30 minute run into an hour plus.

I don't mind long or even failed runs so much when it's with my guild - we're all buddies and can work together and we understand that when things go bad, it's just the way things go sometime. We also have trust and chemistry that we either A. know the mechanics or B. can learn them if we don't know them.

My pledges and randoms participation has greatly dwindled, just because I don't want to deal with the random PUG's. I have had some good experiences with PUG's, no doubt. It's not all bad at all. I've encountered some really awesome players that I've friended, joined guilds with, etc. But I've also experienced a lot of toxic players that expect perfection, and cause drama if things aren't perfect, or people who don't know mechs and don't particularly care to learn them either. So I've just stopped. It's easier that way lol

josiahva

You people are acting as if the 100k experience you get for your random daily actually matters...if you are worried about the difficulty of queueing for a random VET DLC dungeon....DON'T QUEUE FOR VET, the rewards for normal ARE EXACTLY THE SAME...there is no need to queue for vet if the rewards are what you are after....you are complaining about something when you can avoid it simply by queueing for normal instead...that way you don't have to stress about getting less experience or a dungeon that is beyond your capability(or time you want to invest). If you are looking for monster masks or purple gear to decon, then just queue for specific vet dungeons.

amm7sb14_ESO

josiahva wrote: »

You people are acting as if the 100k experience you get for your random daily actually matters...if you are worried about the difficulty of queueing for a random VET DLC dungeon....DON'T QUEUE FOR VET, the rewards for normal ARE EXACTLY THE SAME...there is no need to queue for vet if the rewards are what you are after....you are complaining about something when you can avoid it simply by queueing for normal instead...that way you don't have to stress about getting less experience or a dungeon that is beyond your capability(or time you want to invest). If you are looking for monster masks or purple gear to decon, then just queue for specific vet dungeons.

Normal doesn't address the issue of DLC, which can be a hassle on normal as well when you're with a group of randoms that don't understand the mechanics

El_Borracho

Tanking and healing in a vet DLC dungeon with a pug group can be pretty rough. I would guess that the DPS was either an unknown quantity or was proven to be lacking in the previous dungeon run (I'm assuming this is part of the pledges.)

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Simply put, VDLC needs its own queue. I cannot fathom why this does not exist.

I have certainly cleared a lot of VDLC in groupfinder, but it's always a gamble and usually, quite the adventure. IMO the biggest issue for these is the lack of comms and the coordination required for certain mechanics.

Soulshine

Athyrium93 wrote: »

Tank and healer leave because
A. They don't think they are good enough to do them.
B. They don't want to because they take forever
C. Very very little gear we want is in them
D. Dps varies greatly, most dungeons can be carried, vDLCs can not (usually)
F. It will take us less time to take the leave penalty, re-queue, instantly get a dungeon, do said non-DLC dungeon, decon and sell gear, complete the entire story quest, take an hour break for dinner, do another non-DLC dungeon, find all 400+ skyshards, get the explorer title, level a new toon to 50, organize our own group to run the original vDLC (with our newly leveled toon), run it with a no-death HM clear, and still be done before the average pug has finished the first boss...

Other reasons can include: one or more dps has low CP, low health, a name like XxXback_stabs_and_light_bow_attack_spam_4_lifeXxX which rightly or wrongly gives the connotation they will be a jerk, they hate the dungeon more than life it's self, insert anything else here.....

I think it comes down to tanks and healers being in shorter supply so they can be picky, which makes it harder for everyone else. Personally for me, I'm not good enough to heal the vDLCs and know if I try it will be unpleasant for everyone and I'll be risking getting harassed by a dps with 12k health who stands in red and keeps dying, so it's not worth it, I'll just re-queue.

Haha!! dude... so true. Thank you for making me laugh!!

DigitalHype

josiahva wrote: »

You people are acting as if the 100k experience you get for your random daily actually matters...if you are worried about the difficulty of queueing for a random VET DLC dungeon....DON'T QUEUE FOR VET, the rewards for normal ARE EXACTLY THE SAME...there is no need to queue for vet if the rewards are what you are after....you are complaining about something when you can avoid it simply by queueing for normal instead...that way you don't have to stress about getting less experience or a dungeon that is beyond your capability(or time you want to invest). If you are looking for monster masks or purple gear to decon, then just queue for specific vet dungeons.

Again this isn't the point. NON-DLC and non-ESO+ members do not have the penalty. Every day they get to queue the random dungeon normal and only deal with non-dlc dungeon difficulties. It's less of a time sink and less of a hassle for non-paying customers. This is bad design.

newtinmpls

XxCaLxX wrote: »

Idk why it can’t just be like it was a few years ago when you queued for a dungeon and got the ready check it would say what dungeon it was. I know they had reasons to remove that feature but getting queued faster only for members to leave kinda defeats the purpose.

Oh wow....I don't even remember this.

Would solve a lot of problems tho.

newtinmpls

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

[It gets tiresome knowing that I am going to have to explain the mechanics every. single. time.

I am sad that this impairs your enjoyment.

I remember the first time two friends and I queued for a random and got Ruins of Mazzatun. None of us done it; and the tank was the PUG member of the party.

I really wish that I could recall and compliment that player. Asked if we knew the mechs, all of us said we'd never done it. So every darn room he would (briefly in typed chat) tell us where to stand, where to throw AoE's and that he would do pulls.

It was [snip] incredible. Never seen tanking like that. Never wanted to be a tank - never really thought about it.

I'd never really had any meaningful experiences one way or the other with random "real" or "fake" tanks, but this really showed me the potential of really good taking, and really good leadership. That tank gave us one of the best, most compassionate, most educational experiences I've ever had in game.

So I reiterate a point I've been making lately: Communicate!

If that means asking "do you know this dungeon" and if no, leaving, that's cool

If that means an agreement to discuss/warn about each mechanics - well it's more fun than crashing and burning (for me, anyway).

And for me...if I end up in most of the DLC's (vet or not) during a random, I just leave, 'cause most of them are frankly too annoying. I have no use for "hop on one foot while whistling a song" level meaningless tricky stuff that is irritating, not challenging.

[Edited for Censor Bypass]