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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/653550/

Why is Greymoor, Greymoor?

Supreme_Atromancer
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In a livestream shortly before the launch of Greymoor, Rich acknowledged that people had been asking why Greymoor cavern had the same name as the fortress that exists much further South and East of the ground the chapter covers. He said that people would be able to discover the answer by exploring the chapter.

I've tried to explore it as comprehensively as possible, but found nothing. What am I missing?
  • colossalvoids
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    I believe he didn't replied to a connection between both names. He just mentioned we'll find out why caverns are called like that and it's pretty much just because they put Greymoor Keep as a main structure there and so far it's nothing more than this i suppose.
  • Cameron991
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    Idk I also remember him saying that they will find the answer on how they are connected, I have been looking as well I also can’t find anything. Tbh I’m kinda annoyed that I can’t find any background lore on most of the vampiric side of things. I know rada fought leki and stuff but I want to know about his past becoming a vampire as well as who he was when he was apart of the gray host and not leading them if he even was apart of them before all of this. I also want to know about the greymoor keep and how it was established as well as who all dwelled in it in history. Ik the load screen says some say the first vampires may have built it but who, why, how? They also said we would learn about if the castle was built from bottom up or fro ceiling down but still nothing
  • Vevvev
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    The only connection I could see is that the vampire castle is called Greymoor so the caverns are named after it. Why name a vampire castle Greymoor though? I have no idea but its implied the first vampires laid the stones for the keep. So which came first? Greymoor in Skyrim or Greymoor in Blackreach???
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Cameron991
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    The only connection I could see is that the vampire castle is called Greymoor so the caverns are named after it. Why name a vampire castle Greymoor though? I have no idea but its implied the first vampires laid the stones for the keep. So which came first? Greymoor in Skyrim or Greymoor in Blackreach???
    I would assume greymoor keep in Blackreach came first bc it says the structure of greymoor keep was built even before the dwemer settled in that part of greymoor caverns, which leads me to believe the fort in Skyrim was named after the caverns/keep. So the question is why? And also was the keep named after the caverns or the caverns after the keep?
  • Supreme_Atromancer
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    Either they went to all that effort of creating some very obscure and confusing lore connection and forgot to actually tell anyone.. or its a complete oversight.
  • Vevvev
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    Cameron991 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    The only connection I could see is that the vampire castle is called Greymoor so the caverns are named after it. Why name a vampire castle Greymoor though? I have no idea but its implied the first vampires laid the stones for the keep. So which came first? Greymoor in Skyrim or Greymoor in Blackreach???
    I would assume greymoor keep in Blackreach came first bc it says the structure of greymoor keep was built even before the dwemer settled in that part of greymoor caverns, which leads me to believe the fort in Skyrim was named after the caverns/keep. So the question is why? And also was the keep named after the caverns or the caverns after the keep?

    This also reveals another question. What was the relationship between the vampires and the Dwemer? Did they fight each other, trade, or keep their distance? I imagine their relationship not being very good since vampires need blood to stay sane, and depending on the bloodline, stave off the sun. The Dwemer wouldn't take very kindly to being turned into a meal.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • Cameron991
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Cameron991 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    The only connection I could see is that the vampire castle is called Greymoor so the caverns are named after it. Why name a vampire castle Greymoor though? I have no idea but its implied the first vampires laid the stones for the keep. So which came first? Greymoor in Skyrim or Greymoor in Blackreach???
    I would assume greymoor keep in Blackreach came first bc it says the structure of greymoor keep was built even before the dwemer settled in that part of greymoor caverns, which leads me to believe the fort in Skyrim was named after the caverns/keep. So the question is why? And also was the keep named after the caverns or the caverns after the keep?

    This also reveals another question. What was the relationship between the vampires and the Dwemer? Did they fight each other, trade, or keep their distance? I imagine their relationship not being very good since vampires need blood to stay sane, and depending on the bloodline, stave off the sun. The Dwemer wouldn't take very kindly to being turned into a meal.

    Yes... quite an interesting question. I now also very much wonder this
  • Ratzkifal
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    I remember asking this question in the livestream and after playing through Markarth and Greymoor I am now very certain that the name "Greymoor", and calling the chapter Greymoor for that matter, was an oversight. They just thought it sounded cool, so they called it that without checking what comes up in the Elder Scrolls wiki for it. There just isn't a connection to the Fortress with the same name.
    Obviously the Blackreach cavern is named after the keep, the "Grey" comes from the Gray Host obviously and the "-moor" might come from Hjaalmarch's swamp/march/moor so it kind of fits for the chapter but not actually the keep which stands on top of a lava flow. Also "Grey" should have been spelled with an "a", but these vowel shifts in names happen a lot IRL too so that's completely fine and realistic.

    Surprisingly there was actually a reason for the year-long story being called "the Dark Heart of Skyrim" which turned out to be a lot more literal than just a poetic description. :D

    Also I think now that we have all the puzzle pieces we should go back to the Greymoor symbol and try to decode it, because they said that a lot of symbolism and effort went into that with some being more obvious than others. I feel that effort should be recognized by us decoding that :P
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    For me the name "Greymoor" symbolises much of the the lore in this year's story - out of place and/or ignoring previous lore on the subject.

    Off the top of my head, and in no particular order...

    Verkarth - a place of great significance for the Gray Host, but almost entirely ignored in this story.

    Peace breaks out between perpetual deadly enemies for no apparent reason.

    A Namira-worshipping witch who doesn't have any human remains about her person, or anything else concerning death and decay.

    Deadric Princes being treated like they're the spirits of the land, rather than the Earth Bones.

    Daedric Princes like Molag Bal being successfully invoked with an offering of small bug parts, dead sticks and some small rocks.

    History - the years elapsed from the arrival of the Ra-Gada, to Leki and then St Pelin is insufficient to account for the centuries which the Gray Council and then the Gray Host is said to have existed prior to their defeat.

    The Dark Heart is an object of real cosmic significance, but turns out to be just a flat battery that has been abandoned in a cave. Previous lore on it is pretty much ignored. Compare this with the significance of, and all the lore around Lorkhan's Heart in Red Mountain. What a wasted opportunity for the IP.
    PC EU
  • Ratzkifal
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    For me the name "Greymoor" symbolises much of the the lore in this year's story - out of place and/or ignoring previous lore on the subject.

    Off the top of my head, and in no particular order...

    Verkarth - a place of great significance for the Gray Host, but almost entirely ignored in this story.

    Peace breaks out between perpetual deadly enemies for no apparent reason.

    A Namira-worshipping witch who doesn't have any human remains about her person, or anything else concerning death and decay.

    Deadric Princes being treated like they're the spirits of the land, rather than the Earth Bones.

    Daedric Princes like Molag Bal being successfully invoked with an offering of small bug parts, dead sticks and some small rocks.

    History - the years elapsed from the arrival of the Ra-Gada, to Leki and then St Pelin is insufficient to account for the centuries which the Gray Council and then the Gray Host is said to have existed prior to their defeat.

    The Dark Heart is an object of real cosmic significance, but turns out to be just a flat battery that has been abandoned in a cave. Previous lore on it is pretty much ignored. Compare this with the significance of, and all the lore around Lorkhan's Heart in Red Mountain. What a wasted opportunity for the IP.

    Was Verkarth really a place of great significance to the Grey Host? Styriche ruled the place, sure, but that doesn't give the place any actual significance. They could have added that significance in of course but I don't really see it as a problem that there is none. I'm imaging if Svargrim had been successful then Solitude would have been like Verkarth - just a place ruled by a vampire.

    The sudden peace surprised me too, but it's probably necessary for what they have planned for Whiterun and Falkreath. At least I can imagine it getting in the way and I do like that the political map is actually changing throughout the game rather than it all staying the same forever.

    The Namira worship was somewhat of a let down, especially to me since I actually have been RPing a Namira worshipper from the Reach since Morrowind. Slight nod to death, no real nod to decay, no explanation on "ancient darkness" and no regular darkness either, some ties to the Dark Heart and the void and no mention of disgust and revulsion. The name "Spirit Queen" isn't explained at all. What makes her the queen of spirits if the other daedra are also considered spirits in the Reach?

    On a related note to the Earth Bones, we got no real explanation on how the Reachmen view the divines either. Only that they worship Lorkh as their version of Lorkhan/Shor. But we know from TES5 that the Reach definitely have an obsession with Dibella which is a mystery that should have been lifted.

    The History isn't really a problem to me. They stated several times that the perception of time changes for immortals. It literally does not matter to them if something takes them a year, thirty years or a hundred. They were probably busy doing something, going on tangents, exploring alternatives that ultimately lead nowhere until they formed a plan. The question I have about the Grey Host though is why the Werewolves were in for Rada's plan in the first place. The Werewolf afterlife is all these guys could ask for, unlike the vampire afterlife, so why bother? Probably the true immortality part where they could just come back to life whenever, but still. Also since when are werewolves actually immortal? Have they always been?

    The Dark Heart is a double-edged sword. It's cool that ESO gets to add things of cosmological significance but it also is very restricted in what they can actually do with it. They gave us an answer why nothing ever happened to the Heart afterwards, which is good, but now it's just there forever? And then there is Namira again. Namira is tied to the Dark Heart and the Void. Is her realm, the Scuttling Void, actually the Void Void? Is she the Daedric Prince of everything surrounding existence, including the realms of Oblivion? I see how that would make her Queen of the spirits, so perhaps the Reachmen think that. How does she relate to Sithis then? Would have been nice if Namira actually made an appearance herself since so much was connected to her and there was even a crisis of faith among her followers. I assume we will be getting some answers to these questions regarding her at some point, but it's certain that the Dark Heart won't be playing any part in these stories anymore (unless there is more than one of course) and that sounds like a wasted opportunity. The actual nature of the Dark Heart's applications isn't bothering me though. It's not just a battery, it was just used like one by the Grey Host. The Dwemer had other uses for it and a fully awakened one is most likely even more versatile in its applications. And then there is the Dark Descent. That's also a place of significance that we kind of just left like that. I feel like with the Maw of Lorkhaj, now the Dark Heart and future Sithis void lore in Blackmarch we might get a better picture but the current state of things is frustrating with even less info to build on than the disappearance of the Dwemer!
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Eporem
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »

    Also I think now that we have all the puzzle pieces we should go back to the Greymoor symbol and try to decode it, because they said that a lot of symbolism and effort went into that with some being more obvious than others. I feel that effort should be recognized by us decoding that :P

    What Greymoor symbol is this?



    Edited by Eporem on November 23, 2020 12:26PM
  • Ratzkifal
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    This is the symbol I mean. The one on the cover.
    xfBCuXnsAyGWlDsHdnskWQIhE0oiFBoutExgi-WHjqM_350x200_1x-0.jpeg

    The obvious things are the symbol of the Gray Host, the Wolf of Solitude. Then there is the Wolf looking like a werewolf, the eyebrows of the wolf being very reminiscent of the vampire lord's with the wolf's ears looking like the vampire lord's too, the celtic knot pattern referencing the Nords, the nose looks a little bit like Molag Bal's head.
    I am pretty sure there is even more to it. For example the Nighthollow vampires have a symbol themselves and the empty space between the wolf's teeth remind me a bit of the center of the Nighthollow vampire symbol. Nighthollow-Banner-400x400.jpg

    Then there is the empty space on the forhead which I can't really place...
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • ealdwin
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    Vevvev wrote: »
    Cameron991 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    The only connection I could see is that the vampire castle is called Greymoor so the caverns are named after it. Why name a vampire castle Greymoor though? I have no idea but its implied the first vampires laid the stones for the keep. So which came first? Greymoor in Skyrim or Greymoor in Blackreach???
    I would assume greymoor keep in Blackreach came first bc it says the structure of greymoor keep was built even before the dwemer settled in that part of greymoor caverns, which leads me to believe the fort in Skyrim was named after the caverns/keep. So the question is why? And also was the keep named after the caverns or the caverns after the keep?

    This also reveals another question. What was the relationship between the vampires and the Dwemer? Did they fight each other, trade, or keep their distance? I imagine their relationship not being very good since vampires need blood to stay sane, and depending on the bloodline, stave off the sun. The Dwemer wouldn't take very kindly to being turned into a meal.

    One thing I did notice in the Arkthzand Caverns is on one of the paths from the library to Nighthollow Keep, right where the surrounding buildings, structures, clutter, and wayshrines shift from Dwemer to Vampire, is there appear to be what amounts to ancient fortifications. A Dwemer ballista stands guard on a wall pointing down the path to Nighthollow, and wooden barriers and ballistae stand pointed up towards the library. It would appear, that there was a time when the Nighthollow and the Dwemer were at least wary of each other and prepared for the likelihood of an attack. Or, in a more exciting option, there were wars in the darkness beneath Skyrim between the Undead and the Deep.
  • Aliyavana
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    greymoor in skyrim next to whiterun used to be called black moor or darkmoor, and was later changed to greymoor, source https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Greymoor it isn't explained why black moor became greymoor
  • Iccotak
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    I'll do you one better: "How is Greymoor?"
  • RaddlemanNumber7
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    1. moor: a tract of peaty wasteland with poor drainage;

    Not to be confused with:

    2. Moor – a Muslim of the mixed Berber and Arab people inhabiting northwest Africa.

    2 may explain why Skyrim's "black moor" and "darkmoor" was changed to Greymoor. It's very similar to an IRL racial slur.

    1 does not describe the situation of Greymoor in Blackreach in ESO. Perhaps they don't use the word in American.
    PC EU
  • Vevvev
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    ealdwin wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    Cameron991 wrote: »
    Vevvev wrote: »
    The only connection I could see is that the vampire castle is called Greymoor so the caverns are named after it. Why name a vampire castle Greymoor though? I have no idea but its implied the first vampires laid the stones for the keep. So which came first? Greymoor in Skyrim or Greymoor in Blackreach???
    I would assume greymoor keep in Blackreach came first bc it says the structure of greymoor keep was built even before the dwemer settled in that part of greymoor caverns, which leads me to believe the fort in Skyrim was named after the caverns/keep. So the question is why? And also was the keep named after the caverns or the caverns after the keep?

    This also reveals another question. What was the relationship between the vampires and the Dwemer? Did they fight each other, trade, or keep their distance? I imagine their relationship not being very good since vampires need blood to stay sane, and depending on the bloodline, stave off the sun. The Dwemer wouldn't take very kindly to being turned into a meal.

    One thing I did notice in the Arkthzand Caverns is on one of the paths from the library to Nighthollow Keep, right where the surrounding buildings, structures, clutter, and wayshrines shift from Dwemer to Vampire, is there appear to be what amounts to ancient fortifications. A Dwemer ballista stands guard on a wall pointing down the path to Nighthollow, and wooden barriers and ballistae stand pointed up towards the library. It would appear, that there was a time when the Nighthollow and the Dwemer were at least wary of each other and prepared for the likelihood of an attack. Or, in a more exciting option, there were wars in the darkness beneath Skyrim between the Undead and the Deep.

    Ah yes, and we get some insight how the vampires saw the dwarves in that same questline. The vampires were not happy with the dwarves messing with the Dark Heart and Lady Belain sounded angry. Since she was the leader of the Nighthollow coven I can totally see fighting going on between the two, which explains the dwarven weaponry you talked about being pointed at them.
    PC NA - Ceyanna Ashton - Breton Vampire MagDK
  • deleted210809-001958
    in greymoor keep from tes5 there is an old woman (don't remember her name). if you talk to her, she will say that this fortress is constantly being overtaken by either bandits or vampires. not sure if it somehow connected to vampires from Greymoor chapter in eso.
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