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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/653550/

Would this be a true creation myth..

Eporem
Eporem
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The Celestials are powerful ethereal beings formed by the power of the stars. The most powerful Celestials represent the Constellations, but despite their godlike powers even these Celestials are mortal.

Celestials were first created in the Merethic Era by the ancient star-worshipping Nedes of the Deathlands. The kings of Skyreach in Upper Craglorn constructed a great laboratory at Skyreach Pinnacle, where they used nirncrux to harness the power of the stars. At first, they created only weak Celestials that mimicked mundane animals and Daedra. These ranged in power from the lowly Celestial Spiders to the fearsome entity known as Aetherion. All of these volatile creatures were bound within the Pinnacle by Nedic wards, and the tower was later sealed by the Yokudan invaders that conquered the region circa 1E 808.[

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Celestial
  • Xaramasa
    Xaramasa
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    I'm guessing you're trying to connect the Celestials with the Magna Ge (the Star Orphans/Children of Magnus).

    The Magna Ge were Et'Ada who decided to follow Magnus after the creation of Mundus, tearing holes in Oblivion which became the stars. The Magna Ge aren't the stars themselves. The hole they tore through Oblivion when they escaped Mundus to Aetherius are the stars.

    The Celestials are mortal-created deities formed by the ancient Nedes using these stars, giving them identities and personalities with the strongest being the constellations.

    So, yes, the Celestial myth is indeed a creation myth, but is mostly about the creation of the Celestials.

    The Et'Ada (Aedra and Daedra) were born twice. Originally, they were formless spirits that were the result of the interplay between Anu and Padomay. They are not direct creations of these primordial forces/ Anui-El and Sithis are direct creations of Anu and Padomay, being their respective souls.

    So, there were these formless spirits. They were born a second time when one of these spirits, realized themselves and became Akatosh/Auriel. His "birth" established time, which then made it easier for the then formless spirits to gain self awareness and establish identities.
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    Xaramasa wrote: »
    I'm guessing you're trying to connect the Celestials with the Magna Ge (the Star Orphans/Children of Magnus).

    The Magna Ge were Et'Ada who decided to follow Magnus after the creation of Mundus, tearing holes in Oblivion which became the stars. The Magna Ge aren't the stars themselves. The hole they tore through Oblivion when they escaped Mundus to Aetherius are the stars.

    The Celestials are mortal-created deities formed by the ancient Nedes using these stars, giving them identities and personalities with the strongest being the constellations.

    So, yes, the Celestial myth is indeed a creation myth, but is mostly about the creation of the Celestials.

    The Et'Ada (Aedra and Daedra) were born twice. Originally, they were formless spirits that were the result of the interplay between Anu and Padomay. They are not direct creations of these primordial forces/ Anui-El and Sithis are direct creations of Anu and Padomay, being their respective souls.

    So, there were these formless spirits. They were born a second time when one of these spirits, realized themselves and became Akatosh/Auriel. His "birth" established time, which then made it easier for the then formless spirits to gain self awareness and establish identities.

    How do the Thief/Mage/Serpent/Warrior we meet in-game fit this?
  • Xaramasa
    Xaramasa
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    Jaimeh wrote: »
    How do the Thief/Mage/Serpent/Warrior we meet in-game fit this?

    Well, the major constellations are the most powerful of the Celestials. Like all of the Celestials, they were made by the Nedes harnessing the power of the stars through the use of Nirncrux.

    The major constellations, however, seem to have been made by infusing mortals with nirncrux, who then ascended as constellations/celestials. There's proof of this in-game during a flashback sequence on how The Serpent captured and shattered The Mage constellation.
    The Mage: "You won't win, Malazar. I am too strong for you!"
    The Serpent: "You underestimate me, Valla. I have more tricks at my disposal than you could ever imagine. I have drawn you out of your Apex Stone and made you vulnerable. I know the power you wield. I am not fool enough to try to swallow you whole. But a piece at a time …."
    The Mage: "I will not let you do this. I will stop you!"
    The Serpent: "Protest as you will, but I have already won."

    The Mage refers to The Serpent as Malazar. I believe this is The Serpent's mortal name before they ascended as constellations. The Serpent, in turn, refers to The Mage as Valla.

    Hara is most likely The Thief's mortal name and original form before she ascended as a constellation/celestial.
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Xaramasa wrote: »
    I'm guessing you're trying to connect the Celestials with the Magna Ge (the Star Orphans/Children of Magnus).

    The Magna Ge were Et'Ada who decided to follow Magnus after the creation of Mundus, tearing holes in Oblivion which became the stars. The Magna Ge aren't the stars themselves. The hole they tore through Oblivion when they escaped Mundus to Aetherius are the stars.

    The Celestials are mortal-created deities formed by the ancient Nedes using these stars, giving them identities and personalities with the strongest being the constellations.

    So, yes, the Celestial myth is indeed a creation myth, but is mostly about the creation of the Celestials.

    The Et'Ada (Aedra and Daedra) were born twice. Originally, they were formless spirits that were the result of the interplay between Anu and Padomay. They are not direct creations of these primordial forces/ Anui-El and Sithis are direct creations of Anu and Padomay, being their respective souls.

    So, there were these formless spirits. They were born a second time when one of these spirits, realized themselves and became Akatosh/Auriel. His "birth" established time, which then made it easier for the then formless spirits to gain self awareness and establish identities.

    thank you for your thoughts @Xaramasa - though was wondering moreso when the Constellations might have come into being/the awareness of them - the naming of them and the connection of the stars that are grouped forming these images rather than trying to connect them to the Magna Ge - which seems you have replied to anyways in your post: though there are questions still I have that I posted and then erased for now until I read more of the Nedes.:)

    ...
    Edited by Eporem on July 27, 2020 4:10PM
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    Xaramasa wrote: »
    Jaimeh wrote: »
    How do the Thief/Mage/Serpent/Warrior we meet in-game fit this?

    Well, the major constellations are the most powerful of the Celestials. Like all of the Celestials, they were made by the Nedes harnessing the power of the stars through the use of Nirncrux.

    The major constellations, however, seem to have been made by infusing mortals with nirncrux, who then ascended as constellations/celestials. There's proof of this in-game during a flashback sequence on how The Serpent captured and shattered The Mage constellation.
    The Mage: "You won't win, Malazar. I am too strong for you!"
    The Serpent: "You underestimate me, Valla. I have more tricks at my disposal than you could ever imagine. I have drawn you out of your Apex Stone and made you vulnerable. I know the power you wield. I am not fool enough to try to swallow you whole. But a piece at a time …."
    The Mage: "I will not let you do this. I will stop you!"
    The Serpent: "Protest as you will, but I have already won."

    The Mage refers to The Serpent as Malazar. I believe this is The Serpent's mortal name before they ascended as constellations. The Serpent, in turn, refers to The Mage as Valla.

    Hara is most likely The Thief's mortal name and original form before she ascended as a constellation/celestial.

    Thank you! I really like the lore surrounding the Celestials we meet in the Craglorn quest.
  • Ajaxandriel
    Ajaxandriel
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    Xaramasa wrote: »
    I'm guessing you're trying to connect the Celestials with the Magna Ge (the Star Orphans/Children of Magnus).

    The Magna Ge were Et'Ada who decided to follow Magnus after the creation of Mundus, tearing holes in Oblivion which became the stars. The Magna Ge aren't the stars themselves. The hole they tore through Oblivion when they escaped Mundus to Aetherius are the stars.

    The Celestials are mortal-created deities formed by the ancient Nedes using these stars, giving them identities and personalities with the strongest being the constellations.

    So, yes, the Celestial myth is indeed a creation myth, but is mostly about the creation of the Celestials.

    The Et'Ada (Aedra and Daedra) were born twice. Originally, they were formless spirits that were the result of the interplay between Anu and Padomay. They are not direct creations of these primordial forces/ Anui-El and Sithis are direct creations of Anu and Padomay, being their respective souls.

    So, there were these formless spirits. They were born a second time when one of these spirits, realized themselves and became Akatosh/Auriel. His "birth" established time, which then made it easier for the then formless spirits to gain self awareness and establish identities.

    Or on the reverse, the monomyth used the Celestial story as template to romanticize it into the Magna Ge lore...
    Myths tends to be false as facts, just true as metaphores, after all.

    But according to both stories, Magna Ge created/"named" the Stars, then later, from the power of such Stars, the Celestials were created.
    TESO:Triskelion - forum RP, guilde francophone
    Ajaxandriel - haut-elfe gardien 50 ;
    Altarya - haute-elfe templière 50 ;
    Angelith - elfe des bois gardienne 50 ;
    Antarius Scorpio - impérial chevalier-dragon 50 ;
    Artémidore de Corbeaulieu - bréton lame noire 50 ;
    Azothos Sadras - elfe noir sorcier 50 ;
    Celestras - haut-elfe sorcier 50 ;
    Diluviatar - elfe des mers sorcier 50 ;
    Dorguldun gro-Arash - orque sorcier 50 ;
    Hjarnar - nordique sorcier 50 ;
    Jendaya al-Gilane - rougegarde chevalier-dragon 50 ;
    Sabbathnazar Ullikummi - elfe noir chevalier-dragon 50 ;
    Selvaryn Virotès - elfe noire lame noire 50 ;
    Tahajmi - khajiit sorcière 50 ;
    Telernil - haut-elfe templier 50 ;
    Zadzadak - gobelin nécromancien 50 ;
    Zandoga - rougegarde chevalier-dragon 50
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    or is this a possibility - the Magna Ge created the stars (these holes left when they fled) the Dwemer discovered groups of stars together (the constellations) and named these and then the Nedes created Celestials using these same group of stars.

    I ask of this possibility because is it only the Dwemer that have known symbols for these constellations, except for the Serpent constellation (which was maybe discovered later?) or was created by the Nedes.

    ...
    Edited by Eporem on July 28, 2020 3:12PM
  • storm105
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    I also want to mention that the Yokudans have a completely different myth to explain the stars. And in their version the stars actually predate the mundas. The Serpent constellation is somewhat implied to be the remains of Sep who activity tries to stop the Redguards from reaching the far shores by devouring the stars.
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    storm105 wrote: »
    I also want to mention that the Yokudans have a completely different myth to explain the stars. And in their version the stars actually predate the mundas. The Serpent constellation is somewhat implied to be the remains of Sep who activity tries to stop the Redguards from reaching the far shores by devouring the stars.

    In this myth, is it mentioned that the Serpent's constellation is made of 'unstars'? - which I take to mean are different in some way - though not sure in what way..
  • The_Drop_Bear
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    storm105 wrote: »
    I also want to mention that the Yokudans have a completely different myth to explain the stars. And in their version the stars actually predate the mundas. The Serpent constellation is somewhat implied to be the remains of Sep who activity tries to stop the Redguards from reaching the far shores by devouring the stars.

    That's a mistake made by people in universe, sep is a combination of lorkhan and alduin
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    storm105 wrote: »
    I also want to mention that the Yokudans have a completely different myth to explain the stars. And in their version the stars actually predate the mundas. The Serpent constellation is somewhat implied to be the remains of Sep who activity tries to stop the Redguards from reaching the far shores by devouring the stars.

    That's a mistake made by people in universe, sep is a combination of lorkhan and alduin


    @The_Drop_Bear can you show where in lore this is, so others, like me, can read more of it -
    Edited by Eporem on August 1, 2020 12:02PM
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    came across this of 'unstars'

    "What are the 'unstars' or 'not-stars' which are said to make up the constellation of The Serpent? Also, as the position of stars relative to each other (or at least to the Sun) is not fixed: if stars are holes in the sky, how do they move around?" – Feynn

    High Astrologer Caecilus Bursio says, "It is exactly this matter that has engaged some of our surviving Star-Gazers, a matter which they are studying under my direction. Though we have but an imperfect understanding of The Serpent, I believe the answer to your questions is implied in their statement: unlike the 'holes in the sky,' which are unmoving (at least in relation to each other), the so-called 'unstars' of The Serpent can move precisely because they are NOT stars. They resemble stars, however, in that they shine by night—but what is the nature of the light they are shining down upon us? It certainly isn't Varliance. What is it? Is it benevolent to mortals, or malevolent? These questions, I feel, are important, and much may depend on the answers."


    I believe this High Astrologer Caecilus Bursio says, amoung other things, that while there is still an imperfect understanding of The Serpent, or its Constellation? the 'unstars' are NOT stars, though they resemble stars in that they shine by night. As well they are different from 'the holes in the sky which are unmoving (at least in relation to each other)' in that they move and that they are connected to the Serpent.

    So... would anyone know or have thoughts of what else these lights that shine by night and are related to the Serpent might be...my thoughts are that these could be related to what is said in this lore of Ruptga - this walkabout - the stars placed by Ruptga and/or are the remnants of these stars or they show the easier alternate way that was created.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Ruptga


    Edited by Eporem on August 1, 2020 1:48PM
  • The_Drop_Bear
    The_Drop_Bear
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    Eporem wrote: »
    storm105 wrote: »
    I also want to mention that the Yokudans have a completely different myth to explain the stars. And in their version the stars actually predate the mundas. The Serpent constellation is somewhat implied to be the remains of Sep who activity tries to stop the Redguards from reaching the far shores by devouring the stars.

    That's a mistake made by people in universe, sep is a combination of lorkhan and alduin


    @The_Drop_Bear can you show where in lore this is, so others, like me, can read more of it -

    Sep (The Snake): Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Sep is born when Tall Papa creates someone to help him regulate the spirit trade. Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of Satakal, and he convinces some of the gods to help him make an easier alternative to the Walkabout. This, of course, is the world as we know it, and the spirits who followed Sep become trapped here, to live out their lives as mortals. Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions.

    -Varieties of faith in the empire(book found in morrowind, Skyrim dragonborn expansion and now ESO)

    I was also wrong, satakal is alduin.

    Although the redguard myth got it the wrong way round, SEP wasn't created by Tall Papa (AKATOSH) he was created directly by Sithis.
  • Eporem
    Eporem
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    Eporem wrote: »
    storm105 wrote: »
    I also want to mention that the Yokudans have a completely different myth to explain the stars. And in their version the stars actually predate the mundas. The Serpent constellation is somewhat implied to be the remains of Sep who activity tries to stop the Redguards from reaching the far shores by devouring the stars.

    That's a mistake made by people in universe, sep is a combination of lorkhan and alduin


    @The_Drop_Bear can you show where in lore this is, so others, like me, can read more of it -

    Sep (The Snake): Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Sep is born when Tall Papa creates someone to help him regulate the spirit trade. Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of Satakal, and he convinces some of the gods to help him make an easier alternative to the Walkabout. This, of course, is the world as we know it, and the spirits who followed Sep become trapped here, to live out their lives as mortals. Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions.

    -Varieties of faith in the empire(book found in morrowind, Skyrim dragonborn expansion and now ESO)

    I was also wrong, satakal is alduin.

    Although the redguard myth got it the wrong way round, SEP wasn't created by Tall Papa (AKATOSH) he was created directly by Sithis.

    Okay:) I might see it a bit differently from you...or maybe not...and is just from reading this one book because I could not find the other and in the comparing ...

    I see Satak as Anu; Akel as Padomay; Satakal as The Aurbis which contains the multiple releams of Aetherius and Oblivion; Ruptgu and Tuwhacca as some of the original spirits or the et'ada with Ruptgu creating the stars; and Sep, who was created from the waste of old world skins as either Magnus or Lorkhan - because he created a new world (Mundus) from the gathering of other old world skins - moreso Lorkhan because he was known to trick other spirits into living in Mundus and Sep now seems to roam the skies as a dead skin when he was punished by Ruptgu.

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Monomyth:_Lorkhan_and_Satakal


    Edited by Eporem on August 2, 2020 5:20PM
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