stamplar needs a bit of love (pvp)

Jman100582

For stamplar theres very little buff coverage. They have access to all three minor recoveries via empower, minor protection, empower if they use empowering sweep (but thats subpar since dawnbreaker exists), minor fracture from potl, minor mending, and major savagery (not going to count major ward buffs since every class has those). They can also get offbalance from toppling charge if they choose to use it, but due to the cost its not used very much. It can give group members minor sorcery as well.

Compared to the other base classes, this is almost nothing. If you look at how many buffs dk or nightblade get for their stam variants it's almost insulting. I would go into it but there's wayyy too much to make for a single list. The only counter argument is for stamsorc, which gets the similar treatment as stamplar in terms of buff coverage and class abilities that are actually viable. Both cant use half of their class skills, both have little buffs/debuffs. Stamsorc has great mobility compared to stamplar, and has the best sustain out of all the classes. Stamplar burst is almost the same as stamsorc burst because of the existence of major evasion (25% less dmg from jabs). Take your jab tooltip on a stamplar if you have one, cut 25% from it and then compare it to d swing. its almost exactly the same, if not less.

Then there's power of the light. Before, this ability had great group synergy since other players use to be able to feed into it (and the meta use to be different). Now? because of potl changes as well as changes to the meta (that being that there's no real good reason to have a stampool over 30k. its better to stack into weapon damage or penetration) just simply stunning a stamplar or dodging a single set of jabs can make potl hit for around 3-4k. Compare that to blastbones, shalks, spectral bow, or even bound armourments and theres an issue. besides the damage difference between the 1st 3 (armourments hits about as hard as potl most the time), all three give amazing buffs. Blastbones gives major defile, shalks gives major fracture, spectral bow gives 15% mitigation, and armaments gives 8% stam as well as 20% increased health/stam recovery when slotted. Potl gives...major fracture and minor sorcery. One of those buffs isnt even USEFUL for stamplar. And to top it off all the other abilities can have an even bigger tooltip then some ults, while potl can barely hit a 20k tooltip anymore. My db can hit a 29-30k tooltip fully buffed on my stamplar. my potl is 17k

You can make the argument that you cant block potl like the other burst abilities, but the other burst abilities dont even require u to do much other then aim. blastbones is almost impossible to dodge and just runs at the target, shalks u just have to aim, and for spectral and armaments all you have to do is light attack to get them up. For potl you have to constantly pressure and jab the target otherwise it wont hit for anything more then a light attack, and then the buff/debuff is literally almost nothing compared to the other "big burst" abilities. At this point i wouldn't even mind if you could block it. Half the time people block spectral bow or dodge shalks if you cant aim it. If it was blockable and gave something like major fracture or minor berserk, that'd be great. I could care less. Either change something about power of the light, or give me another good "big burst" ability. Or maybe even a class dot. Give me something, whether it's more consistent burst or more buffs. There's a reason there's almost no stamplars anywhere (at least on ps4 NA) is simply because they just aren't viable anymore. It doesn't have enough group utility or solo utility compared to the other classes. It needs a bit of love

Synssaturdayy9

my opinion zos should atleast put dots back on jabs that would be a nice buff bc you get a heal with magplars jabs stamplars jabs is nothing special anymore its like its a dead class

Mayrael

Sorry but this brings smile to my face. Stamplar can be one of the most oppressive classes in the game, it's just a bit behind stamcro and stamden in overall performance.

Try to play mag spec for a while to see how they struggle to deal damage and fight for survival without being able to block and dodge at will


Side note:
Merciless resolve/Relentless focus/Grim focus aka Spectral, gives you 10% not 15% damage reduction with 5 stacks and only when you won't fire that skill, you have to choose between damage and defense. Damage is so loud and slow that it is dodged (wasted) 80% of a time. But why it's being used by magblades then? Because they don't have anything else.

Same goes to Bound armaments, it is dodged most of the time, but at least bonuses are on slot, so you don't lose them.

Subterranean is very good skill that shows pretty good balance between being useful and not being stupidly OP.

Blastbones with major defile, being ranged, AoE, undodgeable, delayed burst, granting chance to apply minor defile and having insane damage is OP and should never be set as an example of how should skills look like.

Firstmep

Mayrael wrote: »

Sorry but this brings smile to my face. Stamplar can be one of the most oppressive classes in the game, it's just a bit behind stamcro and stamden in overall performance.

Try to play mag spec for a while to see how they struggle to deal damage and fight for survival without being able to block and dodge at will


Side note:
Merciless resolve/Relentless focus/Grim focus aka Spectral, gives you 10% not 15% damage reduction with 5 stacks and only when you won't fire that skill, you have to choose between damage and defense. Damage is so loud and slow that it is dodged (wasted) 80% of a time. But why it's being used by magblades then? Because they don't have anything else.

Same goes to Bound armaments, it is dodged most of the time, but at least bonuses are on slot, so you don't lose them.

Subterranean is very good skill that shows pretty good balance between being useful and not being stupidly OP.

Blastbones with major defile, being ranged, AoE, undodgeable, delayed burst, granting chance to apply minor defile and having insane damage is OP and should never be set as an example of how should skills look like.

My magplar has way better burst Beacuse of crescent sweep and with all the hots available I can actually stick to a target and deal massive damage to build up backlash.
Or just throw on overwhelming grothdaar and become an aoe death machine.
My magsorc can escape from literally every fight, has the best ranged dmg in the game and the best burst heal, let's not even talk about sustain..
My magden is a the star of every group I run with, insane off heals, aoe major protection, massive snare and overall great aoe damage.
Magcro is kinda poo pop outside of harmony..
Magblade, well yeah okay.
MagDK while not the best can put out some insane aoe pressure, especially in bgs.
In summary a lot mag classes do better than stamplar, and the only place stamplar shines is pure 1v1, apart from that they lact the mobility and tankiness that other Stam classes have access to(one or the other).
I have such an easier time stamsorc this patch, I can literally put 64 points into health with full recovery glyphs on stamsorc and procsets will still carry my dmg and my healing is pretty much independent on stats anyway, couple it with the best mobility in the game and yeh...
My stamden can literally walk over entire groups with shalk db combo while rocking close to 40k hp and still tank everything with arctic blast.
I won't get into every class but you guy get the gist.
And this is coming from someone who mained Templar since the launch of this game.

Firstmep

I wanna bring up my main gripes with stamplar atm.
Healing: it's one of the worst among Stam classes, only second to stamblade. Every other Stam class has some class based options for self heal, extended ritual is nice but the hot is very weak, especially considering the mobile nature.of pvp, youll often have to leave ur ritual in order to survive.
Lack of Magicka utility: Stamplar has hands down the least amount of Magicka based utility skills available to them, ppl often bring up how good cleanse is, thing is its not going to prevent me from eating 7k frags from sorcs or really any burst skill, not to mention the skill itself is so bloody expensive.
Biting jabs: one of the most complained skills from Templar, thing is, just like with dizzy swing, it's really just a potato killer.
Good players will know how to counter it, I have 0 issues against jabs on my other classes it's easily avoidable. It's aoe(and hence "undodgeable) nature is negated by the fact that major evasion is widely available to Stam classes.
Power of the light: Like mentioned above, it takes an insane amount of damage dealt to your target for this skill to hit any decent numbers, while other classes burst skills can be built up while playing defensive.
On top of that it's highly predictable, especially when outnumbered this skill is a massive signal to whomever you put it on that you are about to burst then.
And predictable in pvp=dead you.

So what could be done?
Provide additional healing and utility choices, I'd love to see eclipse scale with highest stats and have lower cost, you can go ahead and reduce the healing on ritual to balance it out.
A source of major brutality and possibly even minor force from our class skills, maybe even on the same skill.
Reduce the duration of backlash to 3 seconds or have it explode every 3 seconds and have a longer duration.
The damage on it can be adjusted so its not too op.
Give stamplar some more aoe damage options from our class toolkit, preferably a dot, so it's not the same as warden or necro.
Spear shards have been in the dumpster in pvp for years, and even in Pve orbs are often preferred, maybe it's to show this skill some love.
Maybe change burning light to instead have its cool down separate for each target, that way jabbing multiple targets would allow for some potent aoe, without making it stronger for single target.

Luckylancer

Suicidal skeletons and beetle trios deal same damage. Skdldton is not OP because of damage, that skill is just stacked with so many good stuff.

Firstmep

Luckylancer wrote: »

Suicidal skeletons and beetle trios deal same damage. Skdldton is not OP because of damage, that skill is just stacked with so many good stuff.

Those skills can be used to supplement additional burst like ultimates for example.
Jabs cannot as you cant use another ability while channeling jabs.
They're just not the same, not even remotely.

xI_The_Owl_Ix

Firstmep wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

Suicidal skeletons and beetle trios deal same damage. Skdldton is not OP because of damage, that skill is just stacked with so many good stuff.

Those skills can be used to supplement additional burst like ultimates for example.
Jabs cannot as you cant use another ability while channeling jabs.
They're just not the same, not even remotely.

Thats because biting jabs is your spammable (probably the best spammable in the game as well). The "supplement additional burst" you speak of would be burning light which has a 25% chance to proc when using jabs and power of the light. You can time your power of the light with an ultimate like dawnbreaker for massive burst damage.

Stamplars have one of the best burst combos in the game. Cast Potl > jabs jabs jabs > javelin for stun > dawnbreaker.

Mayrael

Funny how I can catch almost any magsorc (except of those from the top, then we usually end with stalemate), burst down any magplar (except the ones who are pure heal tanks) while I can't say the same about stamsorcs and stamplars, stamina has so many godlike setups right now its not even funny. When fighting around 60-70% magicka opponents I feel like I am the pushing side (the only ones that are mostly unkilable for me are magdens because of shimmering shield), while with stamina usually I am the one defending, trying to survive and counting on opponents mistake and this can be told about all good stamina players, class doesn't really matter. I know my craft, I play magblade, maybe I'm not the best out there but fought with some really good players and not many can brag about killing me 1v1, but 95% of those who did are stamina players, stamplars including.

Thats why its hard for me to swallow threads like this, I don't claim you are wrong, I'm just saying what I experience in Cyrodiil/IC and its a bit different from what you describe.

You say you have no dots, but you can use rending slashes, poison injection or consuming trap.
Also comparing DBoS (ULTIMATE!) to regular skill is not very good idea, you want regular skill to hit like an ultimate every 6s?

Templars were subject of many buffs since few last patches and its hard for me to believe they need even more buffs.

Everyone now wants delayed powerfull burst skills. Can NBs and DKs get at least somehing to?

technohic

I will say I do not see anything wrong with stamplar offensive capability. Little predictable and avoidable by good players, but so is every other offense in the game and why good fights between good players often come down to finding a slight slip up for a burst window. It does lack a major fracture or defile but I cant sit here with a straight face and say bug picture it is behind on killing power

Problem stamplar has is it doesnt have much to shake pressure as a defensive when facing group fights that 99% of the game is. it used to be empowering sweeps when it gave major protection that was removed because another ultimate had it. Then they made ERs heals scale on max stat which was quite good before update 26. What changed is now, you need the ER to cleanse the DOTs which will kill your ass while it's just too expensive to keep putting ER back up as you move and in a weakened state.

Maybe lack of debuffs could be key here with something like maim being an option but I dont think that helps so much with shaking group pressure as much as it would be more a 1 on 1 boon, and I'd be careful as magplar has enough options to supplement heals with regen and or living dark, and can cast ER quite a bit more.

Vajrak

Just chiming in -- why bother with ER? Mobile Fight, need extra tick, and supplement damage with Ritual of Retribution. Damage and heal scale off highest, so even though it's lacking pen and crit it still adds a little more than ER does.

Soris

Offensively both versions of templar are good but defensively stamplar is one of the worst class in game, even more with the healing nerf. I would love to see Blazing Shield reworked something useful again for both mag and stam builds.

Firstmep

Soris wrote: »

Offensively both versions of templar are good but defensively stamplar is one of the worst class in game, even more with the healing nerf. I would love to see Blazing Shield reworked something useful again for both mag and stam builds.

Yeah this about sums it up, we are kind of a territory where magplars were, as in its very difficult to go on the offensive when pressured by multiple people.
When I'm solo I often have to pull some very impressive los gymnastics to be able to fight outnumbered, like abusing boxes and such(like cages and bookshelves in ic), while in my Stam den I can just stand in smack middle of 5-6 ppl with no fear of getting burst.

Xologamer

Jman100582 wrote: »

For stamplar theres very little buff coverage. They have access to all three minor recoveries via empower, minor protection, empower if they use empowering sweep (but thats subpar since dawnbreaker exists), minor fracture from potl, minor mending, and major savagery (not going to count major ward buffs since every class has those). They can also get offbalance from toppling charge if they choose to use it, but due to the cost its not used very much. It can give group members minor sorcery as well.

Compared to the other base classes, this is almost nothing. If you look at how many buffs dk or nightblade get for their stam variants it's almost insulting. I would go into it but there's wayyy too much to make for a single list. The only counter argument is for stamsorc, which gets the similar treatment as stamplar in terms of buff coverage and class abilities that are actually viable. Both cant use half of their class skills, both have little buffs/debuffs. Stamsorc has great mobility compared to stamplar, and has the best sustain out of all the classes. Stamplar burst is almost the same as stamsorc burst because of the existence of major evasion (25% less dmg from jabs). Take your jab tooltip on a stamplar if you have one, cut 25% from it and then compare it to d swing. its almost exactly the same, if not less.

Then there's power of the light. Before, this ability had great group synergy since other players use to be able to feed into it (and the meta use to be different). Now? because of potl changes as well as changes to the meta (that being that there's no real good reason to have a stampool over 30k. its better to stack into weapon damage or penetration) just simply stunning a stamplar or dodging a single set of jabs can make potl hit for around 3-4k. Compare that to blastbones, shalks, spectral bow, or even bound armourments and theres an issue. besides the damage difference between the 1st 3 (armourments hits about as hard as potl most the time), all three give amazing buffs. Blastbones gives major defile, shalks gives major fracture, spectral bow gives 15% mitigation, and armaments gives 8% stam as well as 20% increased health/stam recovery when slotted. Potl gives...major fracture and minor sorcery. One of those buffs isnt even USEFUL for stamplar. And to top it off all the other abilities can have an even bigger tooltip then some ults, while potl can barely hit a 20k tooltip anymore. My db can hit a 29-30k tooltip fully buffed on my stamplar. my potl is 17k

You can make the argument that you cant block potl like the other burst abilities, but the other burst abilities dont even require u to do much other then aim. blastbones is almost impossible to dodge and just runs at the target, shalks u just have to aim, and for spectral and armaments all you have to do is light attack to get them up. For potl you have to constantly pressure and jab the target otherwise it wont hit for anything more then a light attack, and then the buff/debuff is literally almost nothing compared to the other "big burst" abilities. At this point i wouldn't even mind if you could block it. Half the time people block spectral bow or dodge shalks if you cant aim it. If it was blockable and gave something like major fracture or minor berserk, that'd be great. I could care less. Either change something about power of the light, or give me another good "big burst" ability. Or maybe even a class dot. Give me something, whether it's more consistent burst or more buffs. There's a reason there's almost no stamplars anywhere (at least on ps4 NA) is simply because they just aren't viable anymore. It doesn't have enough group utility or solo utility compared to the other classes. It needs a bit of love

if u make it blockable u can buff it a little bit

but still buff nb first they need it more

West93

Templars as a healing identity class should have good healing on both stamina and magicka variants. Magplar does have it while stamplar doesn't, actually stamplar has worst healing of stamina classes right now and his damage is only at best comparable to stamden or stamcro, while these classes have much better defense.

I agree with OP, with 20% healing nerf it really hurt it most, it does need a better defensive options in class kit.

Danksta

Vajrak wrote: »

Just chiming in -- why bother with ER? Mobile Fight, need extra tick, and supplement damage with Ritual of Retribution. Damage and heal scale off highest, so even though it's lacking pen and crit it still adds a little more than ER does.

Because the cleanse is stronger. Extended Ritual is one of the strongest skills in PvP and if you don't use it on a Templar you are doing it wrong.

JayKwellen

Danksta wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Just chiming in -- why bother with ER? Mobile Fight, need extra tick, and supplement damage with Ritual of Retribution. Damage and heal scale off highest, so even though it's lacking pen and crit it still adds a little more than ER does.

Because the cleanse is stronger. Extended Ritual is one of the strongest skills in PvP and if you don't use it on a Templar you are doing it wrong.

Yup.

Retribution was an acceptable option before, but because of the snare, not the damage. It was particularly useful when going against multiple people who didn't know not to snare themselves in it. Fighting against good stamplars using RoR as a mag class was never fun. If they knew what they were doing they could stay on the offensive enough to keep you pinned, while continuously hampering your own maneuverability unless you could pull them outside it. With a little situational awareness they could also put it somewhere they also could LOS - keeping you snared, LOSd, and unable to keep up with them.

Unless they had a reason to leave it they wouldn't take the bait either, if you tried to pull them out they'd just reposition themselves and wait, or go find someone else to bother.

I only fought a few Templars who used it well like this anyway, but they were still nightmares to deal with. It was always fun on a magblade too, because LA/swallow soul spam ain't killing nobody ever, trying to use the bow at a distance meant it would land approximately 0% of the time, and trying to move in to soul harvest meant snaring yourself, and if they were paying any attention at all they already knew exactly why you were moving in. No fun.

Now though? It's pretty useless. With all the added damage the extra cleanse is just way too useful to give up.

Drdeath20

The most oppressive burst combo is PoTL + onslaught + jabs. Just takes 1 stun and you can clap anything out there.

I can agree that stamplars have huge holes in their toolkit but PoTL and jabs are not in any way shape or form in need of any buffs.

Hotdog_23

Mayrael wrote: »

Templars were subject of many buffs since few last patches and its hard for me to believe they need even more buffs.

Everyone now wants delayed powerfull burst skills. Can NBs and DKs get at least somehing to?

Nighblades has Grimm Focus and morphs for both stamina and magic.

DK has……uhm “Leap” wait that a ultimate…………..yeah I got nothing.


Be safe and have fun:)

Soris

Firstmep wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Offensively both versions of templar are good but defensively stamplar is one of the worst class in game, even more with the healing nerf. I would love to see Blazing Shield reworked something useful again for both mag and stam builds.

Yeah this about sums it up, we are kind of a territory where magplars were, as in its very difficult to go on the offensive when pressured by multiple people.
When I'm solo I often have to pull some very impressive los gymnastics to be able to fight outnumbered, like abusing boxes and such(like cages and bookshelves in ic), while in my Stam den I can just stand in smack middle of 5-6 ppl with no fear of getting burst.

Imo magplars lose that "identitiy" (stuck on back bar) if the player uses solar barrage, overwhelming and grothdar/malubeth.

Mayrael

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Templars were subject of many buffs since few last patches and its hard for me to believe they need even more buffs.

Everyone now wants delayed powerfull burst skills. Can NBs and DKs get at least somehing to?

Nighblades has Grimm Focus and morphs for both stamina and magic.

DK has……uhm “Leap” wait that a ultimate…………..yeah I got nothing.


Be safe and have fun:)

Grim Focus can't be counted as delayed burst ability, actually it has worst possible timing. You can't line it with other skills or burst because it will hit before them, but it is slow enough that you can dodge it even after being CCed first (CC, wait 1s for next GCD, fire skill, wait 0,5s for skill to land, so it gives you 1,5 s to react).

DKs just like NBs don't have any delayed burst, but at least DK ultimate can't be dodged and has no cast time. I'd trade soul harvest/incap for leap any minute.