Magicka Sustain without Vampirism

Altyrann

Now that Blood for Blood is letting Magicka setups with Vampirism really come into their own, it would be great to see non-Vamp options looked at so that they aren't falling behind purely because of sustain.

Right now it definitely feels too one-sided a choice to go Vamp, even with the health cost.

Kittytravel

Welcome to Werewolfs issue of the ages.
Vampires get to have free stuff and WW gets the short end of existence.
Vampires for too long imo have been been an inherent part of the game and at this point are literally as important as a race choice and should just become their own race.

Nova_J

Kittytravel wrote: »

Welcome to Werewolfs issue of the ages.
Vampires get to have free stuff and WW gets the short end of existence.
Vampires for too long imo have been been an inherent part of the game and at this point are literally as important as a race choice and should just become their own race.

Lol the dogs just got major buffs, they only need minor tweaking now and they will be fine. Vamps on the other hand are slowly going to be used ONLY for the spammable. If they arent there already lol, the amount of vamps I've seen using more than one skill has already cut in half, especially those using the ult.

Infectious1X

Kittytravel wrote: »

Welcome to Werewolfs issue of the ages.
Vampires get to have free stuff and WW gets the short end of existence.
Vampires for too long imo have been been an inherent part of the game and at this point are literally as important as a race choice and should just become their own race.

Ironic, considering how just being a vamp introduces massive debuffs for all that “free stuff.” Wolves just got massive buffs and vamps are limited to a strong spammable in PvE, or purely as gankers in PvP.

Altyrann

Vampirism seems to be split into level 1 for BFB to solve sustain issues and help damage or level 4 basically for roleplay.

Magicka setups potentially look even worse by comparison on sustain as they also lost the 10% regen from taking the passive (also not something I was a fan of but again was very common last patch because of the state of Magicka sustain).

Not played new WW much yet so won't comment on that.

kathandira

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Altyrann

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Would be great for Vampire to be an "all in" choice like that rather than a near mandatory addon for Mag DD.

Ramber

Vamps are so unnecessary lol

Kittytravel

@Nova_J @Infectious1X

The dogs got major buffs because they realized the absolute MASSIVE drawbacks that WW already gets.
1. No ulti. Period. Your "morph" just makes up for things you lost by transforming and it doesn't even fully make up for it.
2. No options, you have 5 skills on your bars have fun.
3. You lose 95% of all class passives when morphed.
4. You lose all weapon passives while morphed.

You wanna talk about drawbacks THOSE are drawbacks.
Vampire is just an extra race choice with some good bonuses and drawbacks that obviously don't matter currently considering it's meta for most builds. If the drawbacks did matter then it wouldn't be used in every recommended magicka setup. That's literally OP's issue is that you can choose to not be vamp but say goodbye to a reasonable amount of DPS and burst damage.

Nova_J

Kittytravel wrote: »

@Nova_J @Infectious1X

The dogs got major buffs because they realized the absolute MASSIVE drawbacks that WW already gets.
1. No ulti. Period. Your "morph" just makes up for things you lost by transforming and it doesn't even fully make up for it.
2. No options, you have 5 skills on your bars have fun.
3. You lose 95% of all class passives when morphed.
4. You lose all weapon passives while morphed.

You wanna talk about drawbacks THOSE are drawbacks.
Vampire is just an extra race choice with some good bonuses and drawbacks that obviously don't matter currently considering it's meta for most builds. If the drawbacks did matter then it wouldn't be used in every recommended magicka setup. That's literally OP's issue is that you can choose to not be vamp but say goodbye to a reasonable amount of DPS and burst damage.

Vamp does has draw backs, the majority cannot be ignored. Theres a reason everyone is staying at stage 1, and it's not because the vamps look prettier in that stage. It's because the drawbacks are too much to workaround just for the same dps or only slightly higher by a few thousand. WW are niche, and now vampires are niche. The only difference is that WW actually have everything they need in there kits and isn't a hot mess like the vamps. And as to why you lose the passives, ummmmmm yes that needs to be a thing lol could imagine some of the bs that would ensue if the muts had access to all the passives while tranformed?? Anyway, I'm not saying WW are perfect or where I'd like them to be, I'm only saying that they are much better now and dont really need anymore massive overhauls for the time being. All they need is tweaking. Vamps on the other hand........

idk

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Personally I like that they are not the same. Granted, I think vamp will need some tweaks but I think it is good to have unique designs vs homogenization. In that I do like both skill lines, always have.

Everest_Lionheart

Altyrann wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Would be great for Vampire to be an "all in" choice like that rather than a near mandatory addon for Mag DD.

I don’t want to be vamp on magplar or MagDK but it looks like I have to because of sustain. I’m leaving so much DPS on the table but staying mortal but it just feels wrong in the traditional sense in being a Templar using light magic you would think it would kill a vampire. Same thing with being a DK and a class that uses fire, it’s just wrong to be a vampire because they are weak to fire.

I’m be at a loss forever I guess because I’m just not crossing that bridge. Not on those two classes anyway.

Altyrann

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Altyrann wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Would be great for Vampire to be an "all in" choice like that rather than a near mandatory addon for Mag DD.

I don’t want to be vamp on magplar or MagDK but it looks like I have to because of sustain. I’m leaving so much DPS on the table but staying mortal but it just feels wrong in the traditional sense in being a Templar using light magic you would think it would kill a vampire. Same thing with being a DK and a class that uses fire, it’s just wrong to be a vampire because they are weak to fire.

I’m be at a loss forever I guess because I’m just not crossing that bridge. Not on those two classes anyway.

Exactly this. It feels like at the moment it's vampire or lose a lot of damage and sustain, especially where sustain can already be tough to begin with.

amm7sb14_ESO

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Why?

Everything about vampires, from concept to lore, shows that Vampire is a permanent state of existence. Vampirism is not limited to a transformation. Werewolves, by concept and lore, are.

People actually think vampirism is a "certain" choice? And what is all this talk of vampirism sustain? Sustain as a vampire is *worse* than non vamp.

MashmalloMan

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Why?

Everything about vampires, from concept to lore, shows that Vampire is a permanent state of existence. Vampirism is not limited to a transformation. Werewolves, by concept and lore, are.

People actually think vampirism is a "certain" choice? And what is all this talk of vampirism sustain? Sustain as a vampire is *worse* than non vamp.

You're not thinking about the context everyone is referring to here. Yes, you get a cost increase as Vampire, however...

Vampire sustain in pve at stage 1 is through the roof, as a mag pve dps player, you're almost required to play as one because the spammable, Blood for Blood costs health to cast instead of magicka. Your spammable, being around 30-50% of your rotation changing from your main resource pool to something like health in a game that has sufficent overhealing equals less need for sustain and more room for damage stats.

For example, no need to be a Breton, use False God, tri stat food or Absorb Magicka Glyphs.. just be a Dark Elf/High Elf bi-stat food vampire and your going to max out your dps while having good sustain due to a health cost spammable. Mind you, it also does considerably more damage and costs less because it's considered melee instead of ranged.

Kittytravel

Nova_J wrote: »

WW are niche, and now vampires are niche

We must have a very different definition of "Niche" than where you're from.
Niche is something that does not appeal to a large portion of the population.
Which vampire is not, you can read @MashmalloMan post to get a better grasp of why Stage 1 vamp is used so widely and why Vamp is not niche right now.

Everest_Lionheart

MashmalloMan wrote: »

amm7sb14_ESO wrote: »

kathandira wrote: »

It's simple, Vampirism needs to behave the same way as Werewolf. You only get the passives and skills when you use the Vamp Ulti.

Why they didn't do this with the changes is beyond me.

Why?

Everything about vampires, from concept to lore, shows that Vampire is a permanent state of existence. Vampirism is not limited to a transformation. Werewolves, by concept and lore, are.

People actually think vampirism is a "certain" choice? And what is all this talk of vampirism sustain? Sustain as a vampire is *worse* than non vamp.

You're not thinking about the context everyone is referring to here. Yes, you get a cost increase as Vampire, however...

Vampire sustain in pve at stage 1 is through the roof, as a mag pve dps player, you're almost required to play as one because the spammable, Blood for Blood costs health to cast instead of magicka. Your spammable, being around 30-50% of your rotation changing from your main resource pool to something like health in a game that has sufficent overhealing equals less need for sustain and more room for damage stats.

For example, no need to be a Breton, use False God, tri stat food or Absorb Magicka Glyphs.. just be a Dark Elf/High Elf bi-stat food vampire and your going to max out your dps while having good sustain due to a health cost spammable. Mind you, it also does considerably more damage and costs less because it's considered melee instead of ranged.

Yup MagDK is basically weaving dots and weaving BFB and repeat. And I hate it because fire and vampires aren’t supposed to mix!

Nova_J

Kittytravel wrote: »

Nova_J wrote: »

WW are niche, and now vampires are niche

We must have a very different definition of "Niche" than where you're from.
Niche is something that does not appeal to a large portion of the population.
Which vampire is not, you can read @MashmalloMan post to get a better grasp of why Stage 1 vamp is used so widely and why Vamp is not niche right now.

@Kittytravel
Playing as an actual vampire and not abusing the spammable at stage 1 is considered niche. Before these changes vampires were standard because of the regen passives, now they are the standard for mag dps because of the spammable. Playing as an "actual" vampire means using more than crutching a single skill/stage. If you look at most of the builds going around now for mag dps, literally the only vamp skill they have is the spammable, the reasoning behind this is that playing as an actual vamp is a headache/not really worth it. Thus it being niche. If the WW skill Roar had a passive that increases crit chance by 30% just for having it slotted, and every stam toon became wolves just to have this on their bar and not use any other WW skills, does that mean that WW suddenly arent niche? Lol no. Because those people arent playing as WW. The amount of actual vampire builds are in short supply because very few are playing as them.

Shantu

I agree with the OP. I can hop on any stam character and not even thing about sustain. Then get on any mag toon and unless I'm compensating with mag restore enchants or running as a Breton on False Gods, I feel like I'm fighting it every step of the way. How is this considered balance? And now the new mag meta has become being a vampire so you can have 1 skill on your bar that buffs damage and resolves sustain? Not doing it.

I've never understood why designing in unreasonable sustain issues appears to be an appealing creative direction. I've never met anyone who thinks having to heavy attack 2 minutes into a fight to restore resources is entertaining combat design. But players have complained about this for years. I suspect the devs have a different mindset and are just insulated from the frustration it causes.

Everest_Lionheart

Shantu wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I can hop on any stam character and not even thing about sustain. Then get on any mag toon and unless I'm compensating with mag restore enchants or running as a Breton on False Gods, I feel like I'm fighting it every step of the way. How is this considered balance? And now the new mag meta has become being a vampire so you can have 1 skill on your bar that buffs damage and resolves sustain? Not doing it.

I've never understood why designing in unreasonable sustain issues appears to be an appealing creative direction. I've never met anyone who thinks having to heavy attack 2 minutes into a fight to restore resources is entertaining combat design. But players have complained about this for years. I suspect the devs have a different mindset and are just insulated from the frustration it causes.

I think some of the issue comes with having to play magicka classes in melee range. On both my Magplar and MagDK my main spamables also happen to be the ones that return health and you need to be in melee range for those to connect. Otherwise you can sit back and heavy attack to sustain all day long.

The other thing that I do notice on both classes is just how strong the AOE is on both, but the cost to keep those AOE up is quite high say in comparison to my stamwarden where I’ve got cheaper AOE that aren’t quite as strong but can be cast over and over again without putting a real hurt on my stamina pool.

Sub assault - 2066
Growing swarm - 2525
Endless hail - 3510
Whirling blade/Brawler - 3510/3240

That’s around 11K stam for all your AOE I also use gripping shards so that takes from my magicka pool for a 5th AOE

DK engulfing flames - 3510
Burning Talon - 4050
Eruption - 5670
Elemental blockade - 3780
Scalding Rune - 3240

That’s 20K magicka per rotation on DK. You can also add barbed trap for another stam AOE. The AOE is way longer but that’s the trade. Can’t wait away on your spamable because you won’t recover enough mag to recast when it’s time. Even straight heavy attacking once you’ve got your AOE’s down may not return enough. Especially if you are running molten armaments and flames of oblivion. It’s a huge drain on your mag for the extra DPS boost.

Templar ele blockade - 3780
Blazing spear - 3780
Solar barrage - 2970
Ritual of retribution - 4860
Sweeps - 2700 (spamable)

That’s around 18k for your AOE on Templar with one bing a spamable. You can leave ritual of retribution off and cast 2 more sweeps instead for 19K. You can run bar trap here too for a stam AOE as well. Templar it’s jabs eating your mag pool though. Huge price to pay for class spamable but it’s also arguably the best class spamable in game.

Vampire BFB changes your spamable which really helps the sustain and better sustain = more damage.

Also interesting to note that warden and Templar have in class skills that return rss like netch and channel focus where DK you are reliant on your ultimate to return anything to you. Or if you are clever slip soul consuming trap in there and get some magicka returned to you for some sustain relief when killing mobs.

Altyrann

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I can hop on any stam character and not even thing about sustain. Then get on any mag toon and unless I'm compensating with mag restore enchants or running as a Breton on False Gods, I feel like I'm fighting it every step of the way. How is this considered balance? And now the new mag meta has become being a vampire so you can have 1 skill on your bar that buffs damage and resolves sustain? Not doing it.

I've never understood why designing in unreasonable sustain issues appears to be an appealing creative direction. I've never met anyone who thinks having to heavy attack 2 minutes into a fight to restore resources is entertaining combat design. But players have complained about this for years. I suspect the devs have a different mindset and are just insulated from the frustration it causes.

I think some of the issue comes with having to play magicka classes in melee range. On both my Magplar and MagDK my main spamables also happen to be the ones that return health and you need to be in melee range for those to connect. Otherwise you can sit back and heavy attack to sustain all day long.

The other thing that I do notice on both classes is just how strong the AOE is on both, but the cost to keep those AOE up is quite high say in comparison to my stamwarden where I’ve got cheaper AOE that aren’t quite as strong but can be cast over and over again without putting a real hurt on my stamina pool.

Sub assault - 2066
Growing swarm - 2525
Endless hail - 3510
Whirling blade/Brawler - 3510/3240

That’s around 11K stam for all your AOE I also use gripping shards so that takes from my magicka pool for a 5th AOE

DK engulfing flames - 3510
Burning Talon - 4050
Eruption - 5670
Elemental blockade - 3780
Scalding Rune - 3240

That’s 20K magicka per rotation on DK. You can also add barbed trap for another stam AOE. The AOE is way longer but that’s the trade. Can’t wait away on your spamable because you won’t recover enough mag to recast when it’s time. Even straight heavy attacking once you’ve got your AOE’s down may not return enough. Especially if you are running molten armaments and flames of oblivion. It’s a huge drain on your mag for the extra DPS boost.

Templar ele blockade - 3780
Blazing spear - 3780
Solar barrage - 2970
Ritual of retribution - 4860
Sweeps - 2700 (spamable)

That’s around 18k for your AOE on Templar with one bing a spamable. You can leave ritual of retribution off and cast 2 more sweeps instead for 19K. You can run bar trap here too for a stam AOE as well. Templar it’s jabs eating your mag pool though. Huge price to pay for class spamable but it’s also arguably the best class spamable in game.

Vampire BFB changes your spamable which really helps the sustain and better sustain = more damage.

Also interesting to note that warden and Templar have in class skills that return rss like netch and channel focus where DK you are reliant on your ultimate to return anything to you. Or if you are clever slip soul consuming trap in there and get some magicka returned to you for some sustain relief when killing mobs.

Thanks for checking the numbers on this. I main Magplar and while Sweeps is great, you really feel the sustain issues it causes even in PFGD etc. On other Mag classes I find sustain similarly tough compared to stamina, especially on harder content with lots of movement where you won't be in a nice stack for constant buffs throughout. This along with the great damage you get from BFB just makes it far too close to mandatory. I'm not suggesting nerfing it to irrelevance. In isolation, doing a bit more damage than a normal spammable in return for hitting your health actually feels interesting. It's just in the context of magicka sustain otherwise being so painful that it feels a bit much. I'd far rather base sustain for mag was tweaked instead.

Everest_Lionheart

Altyrann wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Shantu wrote: »

I agree with the OP. I can hop on any stam character and not even thing about sustain. Then get on any mag toon and unless I'm compensating with mag restore enchants or running as a Breton on False Gods, I feel like I'm fighting it every step of the way. How is this considered balance? And now the new mag meta has become being a vampire so you can have 1 skill on your bar that buffs damage and resolves sustain? Not doing it.

I've never understood why designing in unreasonable sustain issues appears to be an appealing creative direction. I've never met anyone who thinks having to heavy attack 2 minutes into a fight to restore resources is entertaining combat design. But players have complained about this for years. I suspect the devs have a different mindset and are just insulated from the frustration it causes.

I think some of the issue comes with having to play magicka classes in melee range. On both my Magplar and MagDK my main spamables also happen to be the ones that return health and you need to be in melee range for those to connect. Otherwise you can sit back and heavy attack to sustain all day long.

The other thing that I do notice on both classes is just how strong the AOE is on both, but the cost to keep those AOE up is quite high say in comparison to my stamwarden where I’ve got cheaper AOE that aren’t quite as strong but can be cast over and over again without putting a real hurt on my stamina pool.

Sub assault - 2066
Growing swarm - 2525
Endless hail - 3510
Whirling blade/Brawler - 3510/3240

That’s around 11K stam for all your AOE I also use gripping shards so that takes from my magicka pool for a 5th AOE

DK engulfing flames - 3510
Burning Talon - 4050
Eruption - 5670
Elemental blockade - 3780
Scalding Rune - 3240

That’s 20K magicka per rotation on DK. You can also add barbed trap for another stam AOE. The AOE is way longer but that’s the trade. Can’t wait away on your spamable because you won’t recover enough mag to recast when it’s time. Even straight heavy attacking once you’ve got your AOE’s down may not return enough. Especially if you are running molten armaments and flames of oblivion. It’s a huge drain on your mag for the extra DPS boost.

Templar ele blockade - 3780
Blazing spear - 3780
Solar barrage - 2970
Ritual of retribution - 4860
Sweeps - 2700 (spamable)

That’s around 18k for your AOE on Templar with one bing a spamable. You can leave ritual of retribution off and cast 2 more sweeps instead for 19K. You can run bar trap here too for a stam AOE as well. Templar it’s jabs eating your mag pool though. Huge price to pay for class spamable but it’s also arguably the best class spamable in game.

Vampire BFB changes your spamable which really helps the sustain and better sustain = more damage.

Also interesting to note that warden and Templar have in class skills that return rss like netch and channel focus where DK you are reliant on your ultimate to return anything to you. Or if you are clever slip soul consuming trap in there and get some magicka returned to you for some sustain relief when killing mobs.

Thanks for checking the numbers on this. I main Magplar and while Sweeps is great, you really feel the sustain issues it causes even in PFGD etc. On other Mag classes I find sustain similarly tough compared to stamina, especially on harder content with lots of movement where you won't be in a nice stack for constant buffs throughout. This along with the great damage you get from BFB just makes it far too close to mandatory. I'm not suggesting nerfing it to irrelevance. In isolation, doing a bit more damage than a normal spammable in return for hitting your health actually feels interesting. It's just in the context of magicka sustain otherwise being so painful that it feels a bit much. I'd far rather base sustain for mag was tweaked instead.

BFB is such a strong replacement in group situations because the overhealing is really strong. Look at most DK rotations as an example. As shown in my previous post you see the magicka layout up front for your dots/buffs is huge but the DK dots and AOE’s run on really long timers so you can hit your spamable 6-8 times recast 2 of the dots, spam another 2-3 times and repeat the whole cycle. Those 6-8 (Plus 2-3) BFB basically cost no rss of your heals are strong. If you have to use one of the 2 class spamable instead of BFB you are looking at 18-22K mag cost in spamables. Or you could also spam the destro staff force pulse for additional AOE on 2 other enemies at the same time. For 21-25K cost, good for mobs, not as good for bosses.

Templar you’ve got to up your dots and AOE more than DK so there is less spamming but the 2700 per cast adds up fast. And if you are like me trying to squeeze in the extra sweep you may need to throw a heavy attack or two in to get all your dots and AOE’s down. Its easy enough because you can just hold the button down and lay down them down in between but it throws the timing off and means less bread and butter damage from spamable. Again BFB changes that and can even let you get in an ele drain and a vampire bane to debuff bosses pushing your dmg/sustain even higher.

Templar you can still manage non vamp though if your group provides a steady stream of synergies. DK is just a crazy hard to sustain but it’s overall power is pretty sick. My stamden though is just pushing buttons in sequence as fast as I can without screwing anything up. It’s way more repetitive and complicated and those long boss fights hurts both my hands and my head. But it’s sustain is so good I can solo a lot of 4 man dungeons with almost zero sustain issues where non vamp Templar and DK I’ll be out of magicka before I drop a boss to half health. I don’t play as vamp by the way, but more and more I feel like I should.

Kittytravel

@Nova_J

That's not even comparable I can't tell if you are actually joking right now. WW's don't HAVE a choice of what abilities to have on their WW bar; they can only have the five WW abilities. You're comparing a skill line with 0 other choice in it other than what the kit has dictated by ZOS VS a skill line that shares the potential space of 100+ abilities competing with it.

It literally sounds like your issue has nothing to do with the threads subject; you sound jaded that Vampirism is still used for only specific portions like it has been for years and that "full vampire" builds don't exist in the competitive scene. Cool go to someones elses thread about that then, otherwise stay on topic here. This is about magicka sustain WITHOUT vampire and how it feels less like a choice and more like a requirement to be Vamp if you want decent DPS sustain.

Adding to the thread: I feel like they just need to go tweak sustain monster sets to be better choices to allow people all-in on their skills. Things like Engine Guardian should target your lowest pool IMO everytime it procs rather than a random one; you are surrendering DPS from a monster set in favor of sustain from your monster set.

Nova_J

Kittytravel wrote: »

@Nova_J

That's not even comparable I can't tell if you are actually joking right now. WW's don't HAVE a choice of what abilities to have on their WW bar; they can only have the five WW abilities. You're comparing a skill line with 0 other choice in it other than what the kit has dictated by ZOS VS a skill line that shares the potential space of 100+ abilities competing with it.

It literally sounds like your issue has nothing to do with the threads subject; you sound jaded that Vampirism is still used for only specific portions like it has been for years and that "full vampire" builds don't exist in the competitive scene. Cool go to someones elses thread about that then, otherwise stay on topic here. This is about magicka sustain WITHOUT vampire and how it feels less like a choice and more like a requirement to be Vamp if you want decent DPS sustain.

Adding to the thread: I feel like they just need to go tweak sustain monster sets to be better choices to allow people all-in on their skills. Things like Engine Guardian should target your lowest pool IMO everytime it procs rather than a random one; you are surrendering DPS from a monster set in favor of sustain from your monster set.

.....considering I was responding to your statement about WW needing a buff (wich is also off topic) then I say we BOTH need to go to another thread lol. All I was saying is that just because vamps spammable will probably be the next meta, doesnt mean that the rest of the skill line is viable and that it will remain niche. People can just skip the sustain issues they have with BfB. Tbh BfB will probably be nerfed because it overshadows just about every other option.

Kittytravel

@Nova_J

Kittytravel wrote: »

Vampires for too long imo have been been an inherent part of the game and at this point are literally as important as a race choice and should just become their own race.

Sure... if you completely ignore the rest of my comment and only focus on the literal first sentence of it. I agreed with the OP that vampire felt too much like a requirement. Prior to Greymoore it was already a choice shoved into many faces in both PvP and PvE where it felt bad to not be vamp and use magicka; this chapter has only doubled up that reinforcement where Magicka + Vamp = Required.

Vampire is still receiving too much "free" stuff for existing and that's always been its issue. ZOS has always fallen short on making the "drawbacks" of vampirism too lofty or highly situational. In my opinion it'd be better to stop pulling punches on this skill line and just make it so vampires receive damage loss on spells that make sense while getting boosts on spells that work with the vampiric blood line. Vampires don't throw light and fire around, they take extra damage from it. Make it ideal to be a vampire in a full magick setup provided that magic does not involve fire.

Drawbacks to this is it eliminates one of the most prominent magicka DPS tools; inferno staves. Choosing to be vampire should be just as conscious as choosing to be WW; the drawbacks should always outweigh the end product but it's to encourage build freedom. Being a WW right now isn't bad by any means; but it's also just not optimal. The same should go for vampires imo and there is a method to achieve that without making it act as a transformation only like WW currently is.

Make it so vamps take extra damage from light/fire but also deal reduced damage with light/fire.
Empower their own magicka skills, using the ENTIRE vamp skill line should be intuitive and feel good.
But we seem to agree on that point just as I agree with OP that they always overload 1-2 parts of the vampire line and then the rest kind of just gets tossed in like a discount coupon at a grocery store that you know you'll never use. I long to see the day when being a vampire is the same as being a werewolf, a choice you make because you like that aspect of the game but not because the game requires it.

Vajrak

This is a joke, right?

...Do your battlegrounds.
Front bar "Barrier" with Magicka Aid (2 points) -- 10% Mag Recovery on your front bar.

DK, need mag? You get mag for burning procs, with no CD -- so burn, baby, burn, for restores!

Difference between Vamp and Non-vamp WITHOUT running Barrier, as a Magplar -- is 1 heavy attack every 15th rotation (Breton), or every 12th (Redguard)....with barrier becomes no heavy(breton) or every 15th (Redguard)...would hardly call sustain an issue. This is with running no recovery glyphs.

Hilariously, I have the opposite problem of @Shantu -- on a magdps, I sustain forever, but on stam I just can't match it and run dry.

Altyrann

Vajrak wrote: »

This is a joke, right?

...Do your battlegrounds.
Front bar "Barrier" with Magicka Aid (2 points) -- 10% Mag Recovery on your front bar.

DK, need mag? You get mag for burning procs, with no CD -- so burn, baby, burn, for restores!

Difference between Vamp and Non-vamp WITHOUT running Barrier, as a Magplar -- is 1 heavy attack every 15th rotation (Breton), or every 12th (Redguard)....with barrier becomes no heavy(breton) or every 15th (Redguard)...would hardly call sustain an issue. This is with running no recovery glyphs.

Hilariously, I have the opposite problem of @Shantu -- on a magdps, I sustain forever, but on stam I just can't match it and run dry.

Vampirism no longer gives the (relatively minor but still useful) 10% magicka recovery. It now lets you run a spammable ability that costs no magicka. If I take Magplar as an example, that means using BFB as your spammable makes around 1/4 of your casts cost none of your primary resource.

Altyrann

Looking at Alcast's latest build, on Magplar, as an example:

https://alcasthq.com/eso-magicka-templar-build-pve/#dpstests - see the 92k one which is without stranglers skewing things:

1,434 drain vs. 1,406 regen, i.e. still net negative even at a dummy with relevant buffs, spears, potions etc.

56 casts of BFB in a 228 second parse - over a quarter of casts during the parse - at NO MAGICKA COST.

This is why the build can happily run things like Mystic Orb and save one cast in 20 (5%) by not needing channeled focus etc.

Altyrann

To quantify that in Mag/s terms, if you replace those BFB with a Magicka spammable, you add around 2.2k Magicka cost (will check that value is right when I can log back on) every 4 seconds, or around 550 Mag/s, or equivalent to 1,100 recovery.

For comparison, a full on DD setup at 800-1k Magicka recovery will get only 40-50 Mag/s from 10% extra Mag recovery.

Everest_Lionheart

Altyrann wrote: »

To quantify that in Mag/s terms, if you replace those BFB with a Magicka spammable, you add around 2.2k Magicka cost (will check that value is right when I can log back on) every 4 seconds, or around 550 Mag/s, or equivalent to 1,100 recovery.

For comparison, a full on DD setup at 800-1k Magicka recovery will get only 40-50 Mag/s from 10% extra Mag recovery.

I’m non vamp on both my magplar and MagDK. I’m focused more on the DK at the moment. With Witchmother’s I push my recovery up to 1400 and it’s still not enough. I’m OK with weaving heavy attacks when I have to, but it leaves so much damage on the table. Also consider I run Infused absorb magicka enchant on my backbar and both my rings have magicka recovery glyphs as opposed to spell damage and it’s crazy how much damage I’m leaving on the table by not going vamp. This setup is still pushing out 40K without trial gear or a monster set at CP440. As much as vamp doesn’t fit with a DK (fire kills vampires) in order to move to endgame trials with this toon I probably have to do it.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ZOS: We dont like that all mag DPS feel they have to go vamp just because of the passive sustain. We want choices to meaningful.

Also ZOS: We reworked vampire. Now all mag DPS must go vamp to use the OP spammable that will also fix any sustain issues you once had.

Sigh...