Gime Zenimax suggestions for improving PUG experience...

MaLTRaiN

Hi. I'm relatively new on ESO but I noticed that one of the main issues of the game is how difficult is to play random dungeons. I can be waiting for looooong minutes, specially if a tank is missing (I'm a healer but my friends tell me DPS wait longer than me).

Playing dungeons with minimum delays would be optimal and it's great when you're playing with your guild friends, but most people can't. So, here is my humble suggestions. I hope someone on Zenimax can take this and other people suggestions in mind for a future update.

1. Create "role skills" trees.
I mean, if you play dungeons as a tank, healer or dps, you can progress on that specific skill. And give those trees specific bonus but some few (and hard to get) general bonus, so people like me, that will never be a tank because it's hard (for me at least) have the motivation to try.

2. Give unique and useful skills.
I'm thinking of tanks, basically. One of the main reasons I'm not interested on playing as a tank is because I'm not good remembering paths, routes to follow in a dungeon. So maybe a unique skill for tanks could be an indicator of where to go. Maybe I'd play as a tank just for having that skill for me.

3. Create some NPCs that can "acreditate" you as a tank, healer or dps.
This could be with a basic tutorial mission, where you can learn some basic aspects of your role, because even when I'm CP300 already, I'm still learning how to be a better healer.

Thanks for reading...

Temeraire507

MaLTRaiN wrote: »

Hi. I'm relatively new on ESO but I noticed that one of the main issues of the game is how difficult is to play random dungeons. I can be waiting for looooong minutes, specially if a tank is missing (I'm a healer but my friends tell me DPS wait longer than me).

Playing dungeons with minimum delays would be optimal and it's great when you're playing with your guild friends, but most people can't. So, here is my humble suggestions. I hope someone on Zenimax can take this and other people suggestions in mind for a future update.

1. Create "role skills" trees.
I mean, if you play dungeons as a tank, healer or dps, you can progress on that specific skill. And give those trees specific bonus but some few (and hard to get) general bonus, so people like me, that will never be a tank because it's hard (for me at least) have the motivation to try.

2. Give unique and useful skills.
I'm thinking of tanks, basically. One of the main reasons I'm not interested on playing as a tank is because I'm not good remembering paths, routes to follow in a dungeon. So maybe a unique skill for tanks could be an indicator of where to go. Maybe I'd play as a tank just for having that skill for me.

3. Create some NPCs that can "acreditate" you as a tank, healer or dps.
This could be with a basic tutorial mission, where you can learn some basic aspects of your role, because even when I'm CP300 already, I'm still learning how to be a better healer.

Thanks for reading...

The problem here is that flagging as a damage dealer is the easiest choice and the one you have to think about the least. If you want to run dungeons but don't feel like you really fit a role you flag as DD as players would expect you to change what you do if you are a Tank or Healer. As many players like content to go by fast and don't want to take hours doing Solo content many also don't find the Tank or Healer role too attractive as the idea of requiring someone else to take down opponents only works if you, well, actually have someone like to do it. Because of that there are way more DD players than Tank or Healer players. As people also despise long queue times they also sometimes flag as Tank or Healer when they are actually DD's (usually referred to as fake-tanking/healing) especially for normal dungeons.

The only way I can see this issue being truly resolved would be to make playing a tank or healer everywhere more attractive, which would probably require a system along the lines of NPC companions that I absolutely do not see happening.

Of course making those roles more attractive in dungeons could help, however it is problematic to do. How does the system check you are doing the designated job? What rewards does it give? How do the system and the rewards make sure it is attractive for everyone to take that role and actually fulfil it? THis is probably the biggest issue as would just create more incentive for DD's to flag as Tank or Healer not to actually play as Tank or Healer instead.

Suggestion 1 would just give more incentive for everyone to play as this role regardless of the role they have and almost guaranteed become a requirement to do for all 3 roles no matter what role you actually want to play for endgame PvE if it offers anything to do with combat/playing these roles. This would slightly help but also increase the number of fakers drastically.

Suggestion 2 while the suggested skill is probably not interesting for most players, the general idea is very similar to Suggestion 1. If queueing as a role gives a certain benefit while being flagged as that role it could just lead to more fakers around and not solve the problem.

Suggestion 3 would help a little imo. The problem it would help more with is people taking a role but being unable to fulfil it. While that would be great it is unlikely we ever see this happen considering the effort required to implement this correctly, the amount of people that would still just skip it even if it would be beneficial for them to utilize and the impact it would probably have.

VaranisArano

Dungeon role tutorials would be great! That might be the perfect time to teach light attack weaving too.

In general though, PUGs are a grab bag. You'll almost always have a better experience running with friends or guildmates.

idk

1. We already have skill trees for tanking and healing

2. Learning the dungeon is the way to learn what path to take.

3. Tutorials for all roles would be good. Granted, they would not be as restrictive as with other games since our roles do not require specific builds. Tank merely needs a taunt to perform their role is an example of what I am speaking to.

MaLTRaiN

Temeraire507 wrote: »

The only way I can see this issue being truly resolved would be to make playing a tank or healer everywhere more attractive, which would probably require a system along the lines of NPC companions that I absolutely do not see happening.

That's why you could give specific tree skills (at level 10, maybe) that can help you in whatever class you usually play (for example, a defense bonus for tanks or a damage bonus for dps). That way, you should play as a tank or healer for having general bonuses that can be useful even if you're a dps. In terms of being "attractive", well, I think many people never pleyed some roles, maybe trying it could change their minds. And, as I said, I don't play as a tank because I'm not good with orientation. Help me with that and I'd try.

Temeraire507 wrote: »

Of course making those roles more attractive in dungeons could help, however it is problematic to do. How does the system check you are doing the designated job? What rewards does it give? How do the system and the rewards make sure it is attractive for everyone to take that role and actually fulfil it? THis is probably the biggest issue as would just create more incentive for DD's to flag as Tank or Healer not to actually play as Tank or Healer instead.

I have a solution. Give some "goals" for leveling up a role. For example, if you are a healer, you MUST heal your group in some quantity (or percentage). If you are a tank, you must taunt bosses or minibosses for certain amount of time (or percentage of time). If you're a DPS, you must damage in some percentage. I don't know, that could be some ideas...

MaLTRaiN

idk wrote: »

1. We already have skill trees for tanking and healing

2. Learning the dungeon is the way to learn what path to take.

1. No, we don't. We have, if you're a healer, a "restoration staff" tree (or a specific one if you're a templar for example). But for the first one you MUST use a restoration staff for the passives and, for the second one, of course, you must be a templar.

2. Of course, but there are A LOT of dungeons and, as I said, some people isn't good remembering paths. A skill that could do it would be welcome for people like me.

VaranisArano

A simpler way to do this - and I know its been requested before - is training dummies that are oriented towards healers and tanks. Damage Dealers can train their rotation on the regular dummies, but tanks and healers currently have to test their builds "on the job."

Alternatively, another easy solution would be to expand ESO Logs to consoles. ESO Logs does a good job of tracking combat metrics that matter to tanks and healers and thus help them to improve, but sadly it's PC exclusive.

One thing I've wanted purely for the fun factor is an Undaunted ultimate that changes based on your group role.


Finally, one of the best ways to get more players to try out less-played roles might be for ZOS to introduce a "saved profile" where characters can quickly swap between gear, skill sets, and CP allotments. It's a lot easier to try out different roles or types of content when you can quickly swap, especially for those of us who play both PVE group content and PVP on the same character.

idk

MaLTRaiN wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. We already have skill trees for tanking and healing

2. Learning the dungeon is the way to learn what path to take.

1. No, we don't. We have, if you're a healer, a "restoration staff" tree (or a specific one if you're a templar for example). But for the first one you MUST use a restoration staff for the passives and, for the second one, of course, you must be a templar.

2. Of course, but there are A LOT of dungeons and, as I said, some people isn't good remembering paths. A skill that could do it would be welcome for people like me.

1. The restoration staff is a skill tree for a healer than S&B (and to a lesser degree frost staff) are skill lines for tanks. So there are skill lines. There are other skills useful to tanking (and healer) throughout the classes and game because ESO does not use the rigid designs other MMORPGs have in order to give us choice.

One of the major differences between ESO and a number of other top MMORPGs is we are not forced into one specific build by the game's design. This is a good thing.

2. I have never seen such a skill in a game. I think this is more about learning the dungeon.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

A simpler way to do this - and I know its been requested before - is training dummies that are oriented towards healers and tanks. Damage Dealers can train their rotation on the regular dummies, but tanks and healers currently have to test their builds "on the job."

Alternatively, another easy solution would be to expand ESO Logs to consoles. ESO Logs does a good job of tracking combat metrics that matter to tanks and healers and thus help them to improve, but sadly it's PC exclusive.

One thing I've wanted purely for the fun factor is an Undaunted ultimate that changes based on your group role.


Finally, one of the best ways to get more players to try out less-played roles might be for ZOS to introduce a "saved profile" where characters can quickly swap between gear, skill sets, and CP allotments. It's a lot easier to try out different roles or types of content when you can quickly swap, especially for those of us who play both PVE group content and PVP on the same character.

An actual simulation that put players through increasingly more difficult situations, though not extremely difficult, like what they have in FF14 would be much better.

I have seen and used a "healing" dummy in a different game. It even had the option of spawning a second target to heal. The issue is it just teaches players to press buttons. At least in those games, there were more quasi rotations due to procs that boosted healing, but there was never a real choice the player needed to make. As such, they were fairly useless and would be even more useless in ESO since we do not have procs for heals.

MartiniDaniels

Enforce dps check on 6M dummy before queuing as dps. Amount of tanks in group finder will skyrocket.

redspecter23

Remove DLC from random normal/vet queue as a start. Hear me out on this. With the DLC removed, every random dungeon group can basically have any group composition and (mostly) succeed. One strong player can pull everyone else through. No tank? No problem. Just take the first 4 to sign up and go. Queue times reduced to near nothing for one of the most popular dungeon modes to queue for. Yes, I understand the argument that it's not fully random anymore and there is no "risk" but I think the positives outweigh the negatives. You'll get a fast, healthy random queue with no role restrictions needed necessarily.

With that change in place, you'll have fewer people in DLC dungeons that don't want to be there at all. The percentage of actual tanks in dungeons that could really use an actual tank would increase. When you queue for a DLC, you will know that every single person in that queue also wants to be there as they queued for it specifically. Maybe queue times become longer for those DLC's, but I'll take that over a fake tank or someone looking for a fast random and getting unlucky. If that means that those DLC's are only really run in the queue on pledge day, I'll accept that trade off. There is still the option of premade if the queue is too slow. Again, every person in there wants to be there. This would be a great change.

And for people that honestly do want a completely random dungeon experience, they can just check off all the dungeons and hit the queue button. I suspect xp/minute is not a priority at that point.

MaLTRaiN

idk wrote: »

1. The restoration staff is a skill tree for a healer than S&B (and to a lesser degree frost staff) are skill lines for tanks. So there are skill lines. There are other skills useful to tanking (and healer) throughout the classes and game because ESO does not use the rigid designs other MMORPGs have in order to give us choice.

One of the major differences between ESO and a number of other top MMORPGs is we are not forced into one specific build by the game's design. This is a good thing.

2. I have never seen such a skill in a game. I think this is more about learning the dungeon.

1. That is my point. If you are a tank, you'll never use a resto staff. BUT if a healer skill tree have a "health bonus" (for example) and it's a passive you can have with any weapon, well, surely a tank or a dps would try to be a healer just for that passive. Same would work for other roles.

2. Well, actually, in Skyrim you have a magic that show you the way you must go. And, even if something is not in any game, well, the better. Why you should only use skills or elements you've already seen in other games?

Agenericname

MaLTRaiN wrote: »

idk wrote: »

1. The restoration staff is a skill tree for a healer than S&B (and to a lesser degree frost staff) are skill lines for tanks. So there are skill lines. There are other skills useful to tanking (and healer) throughout the classes and game because ESO does not use the rigid designs other MMORPGs have in order to give us choice.

One of the major differences between ESO and a number of other top MMORPGs is we are not forced into one specific build by the game's design. This is a good thing.

2. I have never seen such a skill in a game. I think this is more about learning the dungeon.

1. That is my point. If you are a tank, you'll never use a resto staff. BUT if a healer skill tree have a "health bonus" (for example) and it's a passive you can have with any weapon, well, surely a tank or a dps would try to be a healer just for that passive. Same would work for other roles.

2. Well, actually, in Skyrim you have a magic that show you the way you must go. And, even if something is not in any game, well, the better. Why you should only use skills or elements you've already seen in other games?

#2. That skill was from either the alteration or illusion skill lines iirc. We don't have those, yet. I believe that it showed you the direction on any given quest. In eso we have markers that will show you the next objective and where it is.

#1. Tanks can and do use resto staves, it's just not all that common. DPS can already heal well by picking up a resto since the heals and damage scale together in most cases. Getting a DD to queue as a healer doesnt seem to be an issue.

In terms of tanking what makes each tank slightly different, or give them "flavor" is their class abilities. For instance, a warden has a class skill line called winters embrace which is more or less dedicated, or at least heavily oriented, toward tanking. Their class pull is frozen gate. It serves roughly the same purpose as a DKs chains or the Fighters guilds silver leash but acts and feels differently. It can be used preemptively as to where a DK uses their chains in a reactive manner.

This is what makes tanking on different classes feel somewhat different and bring diversity. This is a good thing. We already have a bucket load of generic skills from sword and board, alliance war, and undaunted that are used by many tanks. I would against anything that further homogenized the game.

The issue with the queue is there aren't enough tanks in queue. I doubt if anyone outside of ZOS knows the actual ratio of tanks to DD, but the queue is not an accurate cross sectional representation of the tanking population in this game.

As someone who tanks a good bit I'll present to you the choices that I have and you tell me which youd rather take. I can ask friends and this is usually where the decision process stops and the dungeon starts. I can also advertise in anyone of 5 guilds. Some guilds are more oriented toward experienced players so if I went with them my runs would be smooth and fast. If those fail I can ask in zone if theres something specific that I want and i can set the qualifications to whatever I'd like.

The alternative is to PUG and roll the dice.

Dusk_Coven

SOLO Mode.
Clearly there are a lot of people who are really not interested in actually grouping. They just want the group finder reward and to zoom ahead when they are in the dungeon.
Solo Mode would let them do it and remove them all from the group queue. This would right away remove a lot of the fake tanks and fake healers.
The remainder would need to fake less because there would be less DPS in the queue, shortening queue wait times. Instead of faking to get carried by a team that doesn't need a tank and/or healer, they can queue in their proper role and finish the group dungeon as a proper group.