Harrowstorms and the Vestige [Spoilers]

Vrienda

How come the Vestige is immune to Harrowstorms while others have to use one of those medallions or an elixir? I don't remember this being explained anywhere.

Do they simply not affect people whose bodies are made up of Azure Plasm? (Presuming characters who have yet to start the base game main quest are canonically doing this afterwards).

ListerJMC

I believe it has to do with you not having a soul. There's dialogue which occurs sometimes when destroying them where a Coven sister expresses confusion that your soul wasn't claimed by the storm.

JD2013

ListerJMC wrote: »

I believe it has to do with you not having a soul. There's dialogue which occurs sometimes when destroying them where a Coven sister expresses confusion that your soul wasn't claimed by the storm.

What if we did the Planemeld and have our soul back?

RaddlemanNumber7

JD2013 wrote: »

ListerJMC wrote: »

I believe it has to do with you not having a soul. There's dialogue which occurs sometimes when destroying them where a Coven sister expresses confusion that your soul wasn't claimed by the storm.

What if we did the Planemeld and have our soul back?

Or never got killed and soul-trapped in the first place?

ListerJMC

Both good questions for which I have absolutely no answer. They keep mentioning that souls are important to the ritual so I assumed that was it, given a lot of quests seem to hinge on you not having a soul.

RaddlemanNumber7

The confusion is understandable given that the game's story tellers have failed to get a grip on the muddle caused by "play it as you like" timelines.

Thevampirenight

Vestiges are not the only ones naturally immune to it it seems but also Lycanthropes as well and there is lore on this too.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Lycanthropic_Immunity

* * *
The incredible constitution of the werewolf, even in its human shape, creates one of many obstacles I must overcome to complete my study. The netherroot seemingly has no effect on the subject, even in its concentrated form. Weakening the grip of the body on the soul will be the first step toward delivering it to the desired destination.

* * *
I should have thought of it sooner. The creature's connection to Oblivion is something I can leverage, even if it is tied to a different realm within that great expanse. That connection can help bridge the gap between Mundus and what lies beyond, and the werewolf's lifeblood can imbue the netherroot with a vigor that our undeath simply cannot duplicate.

It seems that it targets life itself, and those that have heavy constitution's seem to be not effected by it compared to normal people. In a way the Vestige is very unique even if they have not lost their soul yet what they do have is an extra anuic quality to their souls. This could make it so the body is more able to handle things that normal people couldn't like standing in lava when doing that as a normal person would instantly kill you .
As for Vampirism and Lycanthropy.
Vampires are not fully dead but yet not fully living they are more limbo and their death like states could make them resistant/immune to the Harrowstorms. Werewolves seem to be immune unless the ritual is modified to target them because of their connection to Oblivion in the Form of that Daedric Wolf Spirit that is attached to the werewolf souls.

To acquire those and to harrow a werewolf required loosening the bounds on the body but also the bonds on the soul so he had to modify the ritual to draw from the Hunting Grounds so he could redirect it. So that hints that even Living Werewolves are attuned to the Hunting Grounds even in Life.Which could be the reason why they are immune to the Harrow storms.

So Vampires, Werewolves and Vestiges could be naturally resistant to the Harrowstorms because of the way those conditions/states work. It could target them but it would have to be modified.

Shmoji

I never thought about this...interesting! However, I have never completely understood what a vestige is. In the tutorial quest it says that your soul was torn from your body...so how the heck do you have a sense of self without a soul??

Eporem

.so how the heck do you have a sense of self without a soul??

Of the three definitions here

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vestige

I think you to be a Vestige (creature) or a Soul Shriven, your soul on arrival into Coldharbour was exchanged for an essence of the Vestige. These vestiges I believe are Daedric souls, the souls of lesser Daedra possibly since most that did not escape Coldharborur become feral.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vestige_(creature)

RaddlemanNumber7

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm

Two scenarios are mentioned by Doctor Rhythandius in the above linked book:

Firstly, Soul Shriven who have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, and thus form an imperfect body. The Player Character is clearly not like that.

Secondly, and more to the point, it is suggested that the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate "paragon" individuals when under threat, and that such a paragon "would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously." That is the Player Character we know and love - a "paragon" of Nirn.

Regardless of whether a Player Character has been to Coldharbour or not, has a soul or not, is a vestige or not, they can still be one of these paragons of Nirn. I have not found anything in lore that further defines what a "paragon" of Nirn is, but of course there is plenty about the Heart of Nirn, the essence of Nirn and the Spirit of Nirn. There are lots of inferences that can be drawn (but I don't want to get suffocated by a cloud of moths ).

TL;DR There are many situations in the game now, where being a soulless Vestige clearly fails as an explanation for the extra-special plot armour that the Player Character so obviously enjoys. In contrast, being "generated" as a "paragon" of the Heart of Nirn can never fail as an explanation.

ListerJMC

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm

Two scenarios are mentioned by Doctor Rhythandius in the above linked book:

Firstly, Soul Shriven who have lost the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, and thus form an imperfect body. The Player Character is clearly not like that.

Secondly, and more to the point, it is suggested that the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate "paragon" individuals when under threat, and that such a paragon "would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. In fact, if this paragon bore a sufficiently high Anuic valence, upon contact with Padomaic creatia its body would form almost instantaneously." That is the Player Character we know and love - a "paragon" of Nirn.

Regardless of whether a Player Character has been to Coldharbour or not, has a soul or not, is a vestige or not, they can still be one of these paragons of Nirn. I have not found anything in lore that further defines what a "paragon" of Nirn is, but of course there is plenty about the Heart of Nirn, the essence of Nirn and the Spirit of Nirn. There are lots of inferences that can be drawn (but I don't want to get suffocated by a cloud of moths ).

TL;DR There are many situations in the game now, where being a soulless Vestige clearly fails as an explanation for the extra-special plot armour that the Player Character so obviously enjoys. In contrast, being "generated" as a "paragon" of the Heart of Nirn can never fail as an explanation.

I'm redoing the Greymoor story and they seem to be going pretty hard on the soul thing -

Player: I found notes on werewolves and netherroot, and a potion made from netherroot and other ingredients.
Fennorian: These notes prove my theory. Netherroot is the key component of the harrowstorm ritual. It's like a poison for the soul. Weakens the bonds to the body so it can be pulled free. They're harvesting life energy from anyone caught in the storms!

- but having an explanation that hinges less on the events of the main quest is way better and more inclusive!

Eporem

There is this as well and maybe this exceptional Anuic quality (whatever this may be - Mortality? as opposed to Immortality?) is what is giving immunity to all from the Harrowstorms.

Rebellion of the Soul Shriven

While Soul Shriven lack the focusing principle of their Anuic souls, scholars theorized that if they still possessed some other intrinsic Anuic aspect, they would form an unflawed body in Coldharbour that was a perfect duplicate of the body worn in Mundus. Should this individual bear a sufficiently high Anuic valence, their body would form almost instantaneously upon contact with Padomaic creatia. Further, scholars extrapolate that such an occurrence would take place if Mundus was subject to an existential threat. In this situation, the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction.[4] It would also be possible for a Soul Shriven to restore their physical form if they became re-attuned to Nirn. One such method is by absorbing the power of a Skyshard, fragments of Aetherius which carry the essence of Nirn within them.[9]

These theories were seemingly proven correct, as in 2E 579 Molag Bal began an attempt to meld his plane of Oblivion with Nirn to create a single nightmarish realm.[10] In response, countless numbers of Soul Shriven individuals imprisoned in Coldharbour were revealed to bear these exceptional Anuic qualities.[verification needed — see talk page] Led by the half-giant, Lyris Titanborn, they rose up against their captors in 2E 582 and escaped the realm to combat the Daedric threat, as foretold by the Elder Scrolls.[9][10]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Soul_Shriven

Enodoc

Shmoji wrote: »

so how the heck do you have a sense of self without a soul??

Something else to consider here is the concept that a soul has two parts - the energy bit (which we'll call animus) and the identity bit (which we'll call pneuma). When you're soul-trapped, the energy is the important thing that the necromancer is after, and so it's just the animus that gets used up by a soul gem. That's the bit that Molag Bal steals from you - your soul energy, because soul energy is highly prized by Daedra. The pneuma gets discarded; usually to the Soul Cairn, but during the Planemeld and with the right ritual, the pneuma ends up in Coldharbour instead. This remnant of identity is then attached to a Daedric vestige, which acts as a new animus, and allows for the formation of a new body from azure plasm.

The paragon soul shriven concept requires an individual with high Anuic valence - this would be a property of the pneuma because that's where "individuality" exists, and therefore even without the focusing principle of an Anuic soul (read "focusing principle" as "energy", and this refers to the animus), as long as there is another source of energy (the Daedric vestige), you get a perfect duplicate body.

RaddlemanNumber7

Enodoc wrote: »

Shmoji wrote: »

so how the heck do you have a sense of self without a soul??

Something else to consider here is the concept that a soul has two parts - the energy bit (which we'll call animus) and the identity bit (which we'll call pneuma). When you're soul-trapped, the energy is the important thing that the necromancer is after, and so it's just the animus that gets used up by a soul gem. That's the bit that Molag Bal steals from you - your soul energy, because soul energy is highly prized by Daedra. The pneuma gets discarded; usually to the Soul Cairn, but during the Planemeld and with the right ritual, the pneuma ends up in Coldharbour instead. This remnant of identity is then attached to a Daedric vestige, which acts as a new animus, and allows for the formation of a new body from azure plasm.

The paragon soul shriven concept requires an individual with high Anuic valence - this would be a property of the pneuma because that's where "individuality" exists, and therefore even without the focusing principle of an Anuic soul (read "focusing principle" as "energy", and this refers to the animus), as long as there is another source of energy (the Daedric vestige), you get a perfect duplicate body.

Totally agree, except I think the word they use in lore is "morphotype", rather than pneuma.

Enodoc

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Shmoji wrote: »

so how the heck do you have a sense of self without a soul??

Something else to consider here is the concept that a soul has two parts - the energy bit (which we'll call animus) and the identity bit (which we'll call pneuma). When you're soul-trapped, the energy is the important thing that the necromancer is after, and so it's just the animus that gets used up by a soul gem. That's the bit that Molag Bal steals from you - your soul energy, because soul energy is highly prized by Daedra. The pneuma gets discarded; usually to the Soul Cairn, but during the Planemeld and with the right ritual, the pneuma ends up in Coldharbour instead. This remnant of identity is then attached to a Daedric vestige, which acts as a new animus, and allows for the formation of a new body from azure plasm.

The paragon soul shriven concept requires an individual with high Anuic valence - this would be a property of the pneuma because that's where "individuality" exists, and therefore even without the focusing principle of an Anuic soul (read "focusing principle" as "energy", and this refers to the animus), as long as there is another source of energy (the Daedric vestige), you get a perfect duplicate body.

Totally agree, except I think the word they use in lore is "morphotype", rather than pneuma.

Hmm potentially, but the way morphotype is used to describe the origins of Titans, I see it as more of a generic thing; something that determines form but not identity, and also (so far) something that has only been used in relation to Daedra. A Daedra's identity comes from both its morphotype and its protonymic.

I don't think they have given a lore name to the specific concept of identity so I just grabbed pneuma from synonyms of soul .

The_Drop_Bear

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

ListerJMC wrote: »

I believe it has to do with you not having a soul. There's dialogue which occurs sometimes when destroying them where a Coven sister expresses confusion that your soul wasn't claimed by the storm.

What if we did the Planemeld and have our soul back?

Or never got killed and soul-trapped in the first place?

Canonically it takes place after the events of the base game and elswyer regardless of whether the player has played them or not.

DaveMoeDee

It is horrible that they are making chapters with their own intros that have stories where you have to be the vestige to make sense. Think about how early a new player might run into a harrowstorm. The game is clearly not designed to push players away from Skyrim before they take on a harrowstorm.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

JD2013 wrote: »

ListerJMC wrote: »

I believe it has to do with you not having a soul. There's dialogue which occurs sometimes when destroying them where a Coven sister expresses confusion that your soul wasn't claimed by the storm.

What if we did the Planemeld and have our soul back?

I see it as more of a case of your soul is in your possesion but not actually in your body, think of it like carrying your soul around in a soul gem there is still a Daedric Animus in it's place in your body which is the reason you cannot die.

Ajaxandriel

I guess there are just reasons for a Player-Character's soul not to be just trapped away in these storms. Hidden reasons. Up-to-your-own-fanfiction reasons...
Some things should be as much facts anyone can testify ("incredible, the adventurers don't get soul-trapped there!") as they are complete mysteries.

Maybe an abnormally strong attachment between the soul and the body, or strong "pneuma" to use the concept above.

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

It is horrible that they are making chapters with their own intros that have stories where you have to be the vestige to make sense. Think about how early a new player might run into a harrowstorm. The game is clearly not designed to push players away from Skyrim before they take on a harrowstorm.

However I agree the "One vestige" soulless thing should be softly pushed away from the stories now.
It is still my highest uncomfortable point in the Story in the game from the begining.