Is Critical Damage overpowered?

MindOfTheSwarm

Base Critical Damage is 50%. This basically means that if you are not running a build focused on Critical Damage you simply cannot compete with endgame DPS. This creates a bottleneck of options for viable builds in the game and limits options. I believe that one solution would be to nerf the base Critical Damage but then buff the Shadow Mundus and relative CP nodes to offset the nerf. This would make it so that critical builds would still be viable options without them being the de facto 'go to' for end game DPS. For Example:

Nerf base Critical Damage from 50% to 25%.

Buff Shadow Mundus from 13% to 25%.

Buff Precise Strikes and Elfborn from 25% to 35%.

* If all of these are implemented it is only a 3% nerf to Critical Damage if specifically built for.


Once those are done you could then buff Elemental Expert and Mighty to 25% and Thaumaturge to 35%. Maybe also buff other Mundus stones such as Warrior and Apprentice if the numbers still are not close.

With these changes you could actually promote different play styles without forcing people to build for Critical Damage while still maintaining Critical builds at the top if they are specifically built for.

tsaescishoeshiner

A 125% damage crit doesn't feel like a crit.

The changes you mention would make Shadow Stone, Elfborn, and Minor/Major force MORE necessary. When you deal 150% critical damage, +10% increases your critical damage by 10/150. When you deal 125% critical damage, +10% increases your damage by 10/125. This would make critical chance way less important, and buffing Critical Damage sources would make them way better than the other options. It would mean everyone had to take those sources because you'd be massively increasing their benefit.

Maf:
Current critical damage = 150%
Elfborn + Shadow Stone = 38%
Critical damage increase from Elfborn + Shadow Stone = +25.3%

Proposed critical damage = 125%
Elfborn + Shadow = 60%
Critical damage increase from Elfborn + Shadow Stone = +48%

Even if crits were just nerfed across the board, we'd still need more PvE sets that were competitive to help with build diversity. Magicka classes don't (mostly) all use Mother's Sorrow because crits are so amazing right now, but because there just aren't other, better options. Mother's Sorrow is actually undertuned because it's a constant bonus set—conditional bonus sets tend to give larger bonuses when they proc. Elf Bane at least made a dent for 1/6 classes >_>

VaranisArano

Is this a sighting of the rare PVE nerf thread?

Came for the joke, stayed for the math and interesting theorycrafting!

Chilly-McFreeze

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

A 125% damage crit doesn't feel like a crit.

The changes you mention would make Shadow Stone, Elfborn, and Minor/Major force MORE necessary. When you deal 150% critical damage, +10% increases your critical damage by 10/150. When you deal 125% critical damage, +10% increases your damage by 10/125. This would make critical chance way less important, and buffing Critical Damage sources would make them way better than the other options. It would mean everyone had to take those sources because you'd be massively increasing their benefit.

Maf:
Current critical damage = 150%
Elfborn + Shadow Stone = 38%
Critical damage increase from Elfborn + Shadow Stone = +25.3%

Proposed critical damage = 125%
Elfborn + Shadow = 60%
Critical damage increase from Elfborn + Shadow Stone = +48%

Even if crits were just nerfed across the board, we'd still need more PvE sets that were competitive to help with build diversity. Magicka classes don't (mostly) all use Mother's Sorrow because crits are so amazing right now, but because there just aren't other, better options. Mother's Sorrow is actually undertuned because it's a constant bonus set—conditional bonus sets tend to give larger bonuses when they proc. Elf Bane at least made a dent for 1/6 classes >_>

I thought the same. If you take the power from players and lock them behind items/ cp/ mundus then those will become mandatory.

Plus I always thought that eso had comparably tame crit dmg with only 150%, but made up for that with extraordinary high crit chance. In most other games I played crit chance was very low but you did a *** of dmg with it.

Danksta

Your build could hit half as hard as a meta build and still be viable.

Kittytravel

I don't think crit damage is overpowered I think it's the other way around as someone said earlier in the thread.

Most of the stronger more viable sets in PVE content have crit chance tied into them so it's just convenient to take that path; Malacath's Band of Brutality was a good step forward in opening up alternative non-crit reliant builds but I also think they need to open up more armor sets that allow for that item to be used more efficiently. It affects proc chance sets but to fully utilize the advantages of Malacaths you have to avoid any set that grants crit rating or it's a dead stat on your gear. This is pretty problematic as most pieces in the game have that stat due to the crit centered nature that combat has taken since One Tamriel. In addition to this a lot of the skill trees have crit centralized passives that give zero bonuses if Malacath is on.

It's my hopes that we start seeing a decrease in sets that come with crit chance on it but we will see where it goes. An alternative would be to make Malacath grant an extra X AD/SD for every 1% of crit chance left on your character afterwards. Nothing serious I think a conversion of 15 per 1% would make it more balanced. (That'd be 8.6% crit chance to equal the current streamlined 129 WD/SD on sets.) You could lower that number pretty easy if it became problematic but overall Malacath's as it sits is more limited by the critical bonuses on so many sets rather than it's own fault.

YandereGirlfriend

It most definitely IS overpowered which is why basically all end-game PvE builds are a Crit-stacking monoculture.

IIRC (and please correct me if I am mistaken), one of the main drivers of this is that the Critical Damage calculation comes last in the overall damage calculation, meaning that it is superior to Malacath's and other "do X% more damage" mods as those only work off of your original baseline damage. Critical Damage swoops in at the end and multiplies the entire computed value by its percentage, making it much more potent and not subject to the perceived "diminishing returns" that one gets with the damage done mods.

That said, I don't know how you go about fixing it without scrambling overall game balance in the process. OP has an interesting suggestion. You could also maybe add in a constellation that only buffs your non-Critical Damage and make sure that it comes at the end of the damage calculation so that it is as potent as Critical Damage.

MEBengalsFan2001

I am a big believer in having hard caps on values. IMO critical damage modifiers should not even exist in a MMO game. Critical damage should be 50% more than normal damage value period with no way to buff it. As for critical chance, that also should have a cap, say around 70% even with buffs. As for damage buff modifiers, those also should have a hard cap and IMO lower than they are now.

This game is to easy with right groups. IMO any time in Vet content if a mechanic can be by passed simply by doing more damage, damage should be lowered so that mechanics cannot be by passed.

Sergykid

i don't understand what's so good with crit. I got the same dps with crit or not. I tried thief and shadow, precise weapon, mother sorrow, any other crit i could find. I got the same dps or maybe with 1k more because of lucky crits, as if i would play without those specified (apprentice mundus, nirnhoned weapon, julianos).

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Sergykid wrote: »

i don't understand what's so good with crit. I got the same dps with crit or not. I tried thief and shadow, precise weapon, mother sorrow, any other crit i could find. I got the same dps or maybe with 1k more because of lucky crits, as if i would play without those specified (apprentice mundus, nirnhoned weapon, julianos).

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I am guessing your damage was not all that high to begin with if this is the case. The more Damage you do, the more you are going to notice this type of thing. Another thing to consider is buffs (I don't know how you are measuring that Damage). In a good group, or on a raid dummy, you are going to get better multipliers to your crit damage from group buffs. Precise and Shadow are certainly the best options in a good group, but there are certainly scenarios where other options become the better choice.

WrathOfInnos

I’m confused, why would you shift base crit damage into the Shadow Stone? Shadow is already overtuned to the point of being mandatory for 95% of PVE builds (anything over about 52% crit chance). If anything it should go the other way, make Shadow 11 or 12% so that choosing Mage, Apprentice or Thief would be viable options.

And Elfborn CP is almost perfectly balanced with Master at Arms/Thaumaturge/Elemental Expert. I guess they would still be balanced if you buff them all equally, but what’s the point?

butterrum222

That’s eso bro, this game ain’t new!

Joinovikova

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is this a sighting of the rare PVE nerf thread?

Came for the joke, stayed for the math and interesting theorycrafting!

no this is PVP nerf thread someone have farmed Malacath's Band of Brutality and now try to destroy anyother option just have Malacath's Band of Brutality or do not play this game... he/she just try to hide it in PVE...

Starlock

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

I am a big believer in having hard caps on values. IMO critical damage modifiers should not even exist in a MMO game. Critical damage should be 50% more than normal damage value period with no way to buff it. As for critical chance, that also should have a cap, say around 70% even with buffs. As for damage buff modifiers, those also should have a hard cap and IMO lower than they are now.

Coming from a tabletop RPG background, a 70% critical chance sounds pretty ridiculous to me too. I'm used to systems where you maybe have a 5% critical chance at base and you have to burn preciously limited character development points (i.e., feats, perks) to increase that. And there are many types of creatures that are straight up immune to critical hits too. But ESO has always been more of an action RPG than an RPG, and it shows with how they handle critical hits.

Everest_Lionheart

It’s not all that bad until you add in cheesy proc sets and you critical 3/4 hits so the proc never goes away. Still I don’t mind mostly because I play a critical build with cheesy proc sets! Im squishy as all hell though so I will either kill you fast or die fast.

MindOfTheSwarm

Joinovikova wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Is this a sighting of the rare PVE nerf thread?

Came for the joke, stayed for the math and interesting theorycrafting!

no this is PVP nerf thread someone have farmed Malacath's Band of Brutality and now try to destroy anyother option just have Malacath's Band of Brutality or do not play this game... he/she just try to hide it in PVE...

Errr.... no.

MindOfTheSwarm

Perhaps they could add other modifiers to the Mundus Stones instead. For Example:

The Serpent:

Increases Stamina Recovery by 238.

Increases Poison Damage by 15%. (This is not increased by Divines Trait).

The Apprentice:

Increases Spell Damage by 238.

Increases Frost Damage by 15%. (This is not increased by Divines Trait.)


Something like this would make options more diverse no?


For Shadow you could have something too but more niche to offset the Critical Damage. Maybe:

The Shadow:

Increases Critical Damage by 13%.

Increases the duration of Alchemical Poisons by 2 seconds. (This is not increased by Divines Trait.)

Kittytravel

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The Shadow:
Increases Critical Damage by 13%.
Increases the duration of Alchemical Poisons by 2 seconds. (This is not increased by Divines Trait.)

Isn't alchemical poisons already a standard thing for stam builds? Most of them typically use double damage poison frontbar with weapon power backbar? A buff like this would make the Shadow mundus even more vital to stambuilds.

Like I said originally I think the reason Malacath's band simply lacks the supporting sets to make it worthwhile. If we look at all the sets available in the game that are stamina oriented (containing either Weapon Damage/Stamina Recovery/Maximum Stamina/Weapon Critical/Minor Slayer/Major Slayer/Physical Penetration on all the 2/3/4 set bonuses since hybrids will always fall behind and you don't want more HP to do damage and comes in Medium peices.) we can see that there are 82 sets in the game that match that possible description. I'll include those in a spoiler at the bottom of this post so people can correct me if I missed one or got any wrong.
Of those 82 sets 50 of them have Crit somewhere in their stats or a requirement to their set bonus and are therefore wasting a bonus with Malacath's band.
Of the remaining 32 sets you would have to look for the ones that have powerful set procs to maximize your damage off them, which takes another theoretical 16 sets out of the running. I'm not saying that you couldn't potentially make a good set combo with Malacath's and pull decent DPS as I've already found my stamsorc does just fine running Malacath's, Aegis Caller, Morkuldin, and a WD monster set piece. But it is disappointing how little support options were received for such a fun little mythic and I hope they toy with the idea of adding in something to offset that by giving some bonus to it for having crit chance left on your character as so many natural passives tend to give it.

So we are left with 16 sets of mixed conditional procs that are either very very bad or pretty good. Here's that list.

Essence Thief - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
Marksman's Crest - No Crit- Non PvE Kind of Damage Proc
Salvation - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
Shield Breaker - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
Stuhn's Favor - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
Morag Tong - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
Titanborn Strength - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
Unchained Aggressor - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc

Aegis Caller - No Crit - Damage Proc
Eternal Hunt - No Crit - Damage Proc
Morkuldin - No Crit - Damage Proc
Poisonus Serpent - No Crit - Damage Proc
Savage Werewolf - No Crit - Damage Proc
Sheer Venom - No Crit - Damage Proc
Tooth of Lokkestiiz - No Crit - Damage Proc
War Machine - No Crit - Damage Proc

And here is all the sets compiled together separated by category.

1. Archer's Mind - Crit
2. Relequen - Crit
3. Azureblight Reaper - Crit
4. Blood Moon - Crit
5. Blooddrinker - Crit
6. Biararheart - Crit
7. Deadly Strike - Crit
8. Defiler - Crit
9. Dragonguard Elite - Crit
10. Dro'Zakar's Claw - Crit
11. Heem-Jas Retribution - Crit
12. Fiord's Legacy - Crit
13. Flanking Strategist - Crit
14. Gryphon's Ferocity - Crit
15. Hawk's Eye - Crit
16. Hunding's Rage - Crit
17. Kvath Gladiator - Crit
18. Kyne's Kiss - Crit
19. Leviathan - Crit
20. New Moon Acolyte - Crit
21. Night Mother's Gaze - Crit
22. Night's Silence - Crit
23. Oblivions Edge - Crit
24. Pillar of Nirn - Crit
25. Quick Serpent - Crit
26. Ranger's Gait - Crit
27. Roar of Alkosh - Crit
28. Scavenging Demise - Crit
29. Senche's Bite - Crit
30. Sentry - Crit
31. Shadow of the Red Mountain - Crit
32. Soldier of Anguish - Crit
33. Storm Master - Crit
34. Strength of Automaton - Crit
35. Sunderflame - Crit
36. Swamp Raider - Crit
37. Sword Dancer - Crit
38. Sword Singer - Crit
39. Toothrow - Crit
40. Twice-Fanged Serpent - Crit
41. Twin Sisters - Crit
42. Tzogvin's Warband - Crit
43. Unfathomable Darkness - Crit
44. Venomous Smite - Crit
45. Vicecanon of Venom - Crit
46. Vicious Serpent - Crit
47. Viper's Sting - Crit
48. Widowmaker - Crit
49. Wilderqueen's Arch - Crit
50. Yandir's Might - Crit

1. Battlefield Acrobat - No Crit - No Damage Proc
2. Bone Pirates Tatters - No Crit - No Damage Proc
3. Crusader - No Crit - No Damage Proc
4. Darkstride - No Crit - No Damage Proc
5. Dragon's Appetite - No Crit - No Damage Proc
6. Draugr Hulk - No Crit - No Damage Proc
7. Hircine's Veneer - No Crit - No Damage Proc
8. Hunt Leader - No Crit - No Damage Proc
9. Jailbreaker - No Crit - No Damage Proc
10. Leki's Focus - No Crit - No Damage Proc
11. Night Mother's Embrace - No Crit - No Damage Proc
12. Shadow Walker - No Crit - No Damage Proc
13. Spelunker - No Crit - No Damage Proc
14. Spriggans Thorns - No Crit - No Damage Proc
15. Trappings of Invigoration - No Crit - No Damage Proc
16. Ward of Cyrodiil - No Crit - No Damage Proc

1. Essence Thief - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
2. Marksman's Crest - No Crit- Non PvE Kind of Damage Proc
3. Salvation - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
4. Shield Breaker - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
5. Stuhn's Favor - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
6. Morag Tong - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
7. Titanborn Strength - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc
8. Unchained Aggressor - No Crit - Kind of Damage Proc

1. Aegis Caller - No Crit - Damage Proc
2. Eternal Hunt - No Crit - Damage Proc
3. Morkuldin - No Crit - Damage Proc
4. Poisonus Serpent - No Crit - Damage Proc
5. Savage Werewolf - No Crit - Damage Proc
6. Sheer Venom - No Crit - Damage Proc
7. Tooth of Lokkestiiz - No Crit - Damage Proc
8. War Machine - No Crit - Damage Proc

MindOfTheSwarm

Perhaps, but then if they added other passives like in The Serpent example you can buff specific damage types. A full Poison build might get more out of running Serpent as in my suggestion over The Shadow and since it is Stamina Recovery would also open the option of running full damage glyphs on Jewellery. I agree with your point on Malacath Band, but I don't think its quite enough yet.

Grianasteri

Probably. The entire game revolves around it (with respect to damage). The meta is generally to maximise crit chance and crit damage. There are alternatives that build directly into weapon/spell damage of course, but I think its fair to say most go down the crit route.